What's the real definition for vegetarian and vegan?

[TheHRchannel]

There were arguments that vegan is when someone is on a 100% plant based diet.
There were arguments that vegetarian is when someone doesn't eat meat but still eats animal product like milk and eggs.

I thought vegans were those who are on a 100% plant based diet AND exclude other stuff like fur, leather, products tested on animals, and etc and that vegetarians are those who are on a 100% plant based diet but still wear animal clothing or so.

[AaronM]

Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use of animal products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_product).Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#cite_note-ethicaldietary-0) Another form,environmental veganism, rejects the use of animal products on the premise that the industrial practice is environmentally damaging and unsustainable.

While Wikipedia isn't always the best source, this is how I'd always understood it. Vegetarian as a diet, vegan as a lifestyle.

[Maître]

Vegetarian: Doesn't eat meat.

Strict Vegetarian: Doesn't eat meat or any other animal products, people have started using the strange term 'dietary vegan' to mean this also.

Vegan: Eats the same diet as a Strict Vegetarian but has more of a belief and philosophy behind it which applies to things other than diet as well, you can't be Vegan if animal welfare and such aren't very core reasons behind your dietary restrictions.

[Andy_T]

... and an Abolitionist Vegan would be somebody who tries to end use of animals for all purposes, e.g. food, clothing or entertainment.

Best regards,
Andy

[Maître]

Don't all vegans want that? o.o

[CoolCat]

From the vegan society (UK):


Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose

It doesn't matter if you are vegan for your health, ethical reasons, environmental reasons... that is what veganism is. Modifiers like "dietary vegans" can not mean anything less. Following a vegan diet only does not make you a dietary vegan. If you only care for any health aspects but still use animals for other purposes you are not a vegan, you are on a vegan diet.


From the vegetarian society (UK):


The Vegetarian Society defines a vegetarian as: "Someone who lives on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with, or without, the use of dairy products and eggs. A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish* or by-products of slaughter."

There are different types of vegetarian:
* Lacto-ovo-vegetarians eat both dairy products and eggs; this is the most common type of vegetarian diet.
* Lacto-vegetarians eat dairy products but avoid eggs.

[CoolCat]

Don't all vegans want that? o.o

Some people try to redefine "vegan" to mean:
- eating honey
- being a diet only

We need to stand firm and keep the intended definition so we don't end up with ovo-lacto-vegan shit or "vegan" for short !

[VeganAthlete]

Vegan: Eats the same diet as a Strict Vegetarian but has more of a belief and philosophy behind it which applies to things other than diet as well, you can't be Vegan if animal welfare and such aren't very core reasons behind your dietary restrictions.

Agreed. Many people (researchers and professionals included) use the term 'dietary vegan' or refer to 'vegan diet' to refer to individuals who follow a plant-based diet (usually for health reasons) but don't necessarily have the condemn the abuse and suffering of animals.

Vegan(ism) is not solely limited to diet, but rather extends beyond what one eats and is concerned over the welfare of animals and the environment. It wouldn't be very 'vegan' to follow a plant-based diet and then go to work with a huge D&G leather bag and GUCCI leather shoes. A strict vegetarian or a 'dietary vegan' would.

Excellent question!

[CoolCat]

Joanne Stepaniak, author of Being Vegan (2000), argues that to place the qualifier "dietary" before "vegan" dilutes its meaning—like using the term "secular Catholic" for people who want to practise only some aspects of Catholicism. She writes that people should not call themselves vegan simply because they have embraced the diet: "Practising a vegan diet no more qualifies someone as vegan than eating kosher food qualifies someone as Jewish."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Dietary_veganism)

Personally I don't like when vegan is thrown in with religion but it makes the point.

[VeganAthlete]

We need to stand firm and keep the intended definition so we don't end up with ovo-lacto-vegan shit or "vegan" for short !

Riight on! :thumbsup:

I like their definition. This is the american vegan society (US) definition:
The vegan diet excludes flesh, fish, fowl, dairy products (animal milk, butter, cheese, yogurt, etc.), eggs, honey, animal gelatin, and all other foods of animal origin. It is an adventure in taste; and displays an amazing variety, the fundamentals of which are vegetables, grains, fruits, legumes, nuts and seeds. Foods from plants best provide for all people in the world.

Vegans exclude products of cruelty such as leather, wool, fur, and silk, in clothing, upholstery, etc. They dress with care. Fashion with compassion is the style.

[Andy_T]

Don't all vegans want that? o.o

That is a very good question!

When I look at many campaigns I see, it seems that many people (vegans and non-vegans alike) seem to be happy with ending "cruelty to animals", e.g. factory farms.

However, campaigning against factory farms, debeaking of hens, gestation crates, life exports and more of the horrific symptomps of animal agriculture implies that "sustainable farms", "free range eggs", "freedom foods" and whatever euphemistic names are thought up are ok - which they are not.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: I have another one: "Veganish". (http://veganish.org/)

That's a person who does not eat animal products as long as it is not too difficult, insensitive or inconvenient.

Like, when your grandmother (or friend, office colleague etc.) makes a non-vegan birthday cake and you feel they would be deeply hurt by you not eating it.

Or when you are eating out with omni friends and do not want to offend them. Or when you are feeling hungry and there is no vegan food around ... and so on ... then you can make a teeny weeny exception.

(You don't have to worry about sending the wrong messages to omnis, just as long as you do not get caught by the "Vegan Police" who will then insult you as a non-vegan, although you really only make some small exceptions now and then :mad: )

[leedsveg]

Personally I don't like when vegan is thrown in with religion but it makes the point.I think in one way, veganism is comparable to a religion, CoolCat. Just as I can't prove there's a God, it's just a matter of faith, so I can't prove why it's ethically right to be concerned about the plight of animals and their suffering. My concern just seems to be right, it's a matter of faith, it's a belief. Fortunately, in making a case for going vegan, I can point to the benefits for health, the environment, the economy and so on.

Leedsveg:-)

[CoolCat]

I think in one way, veganism is comparable to a religion, CoolCat. Just as I can't prove there's a God, it's just a matter of faith, so I can't prove why it's ethically right to be concerned about the plight of animals and their suffering. My concern just seems to be right, it's a matter of faith, it's a belief. Fortunately, in making a case for going vegan, I can point to the benefits for health, the environment, the economy and so on.

Leedsveg:-)

There are court rulings from Californian courts stating that veganism isn't a religion though. If we can't have the legal benefits from being a religion I don't want stigmas or other crap of it either. :p

[leedsveg]

PS: I have another one: "Veganish". (http://veganish.org/)

That's a person who does not eat animal products as long as it is not too difficult, insensitive or inconvenient.

Like, when your grandmother (or friend, office colleague etc.) makes a non-vegan birthday cake and you feel they would be deeply hurt by you not eating it.

Or when you are eating out with omni friends and do not want to offend them. Or when you are feeling hungry and there is no vegan food around ... and so on ... then you can make a teeny weeny exception.

(You don't have to worry about sending the wrong messages to omnis, just as long as you do not get caught by the "Vegan Police" who will then insult you as a non-vegan, although you really only make some small exceptions now and then :mad: )Hi Andy
If veganism is more than "not eating animals", then would eating a piece of your grandmother-made birthday cake that has a minute amount of a non-vegan ingredient, be any worse than sitting in a leather covered seat on a train journey?

Leedsveg:-)

[leedsveg]

There are court rulings from Californian courts stating that veganism isn't a religion though. If we can't have the legal benefits from being a religion I don't want stigmas or other crap of it either. :pI think it would be hard to classify veganism as a religion since vegans don't necessarily believe in a supernatural entity. But we do have unprovable, ethical beliefs about animals. Why people with unprovable religious beliefs should have legal benefits over people with unprovable ethical beliefs about animals, does not seem logical to me. I'm not understanding where stigma comes into this, to be honest?

Leedsveg:-)

[VeganAthlete]

That's a person who does not eat animal products as long as it is not too difficult, insensitive or inconvenient.

Uh, ummm this doesn't really qualify someone as vegan or following a 'vegan diet', does it? :pissed_ani:
That's like someone going vegan because they don't want to bother purchasing eggs, dairy, meats, etc. I can understand someone feeling bad about offending someone, but I think most people would understand the motives of your conviction. Most family members and friends will pick on me for being "picky" during a cookout or a dinner because I am not eating what they cooked or baked. I usually just tell them that I prepared my own food before hand because I am vegan and don't want to inconvenience them into making separate food for me. Similarly, I'll bring my own pasties, cookies, cake or cupcake and offer them some. The veganish concept you mention is a little deceptive. Interesting to learn about, but not very vegan.

Leedsveg: You're on a philosophical train ride! :D Ethics, morals, values and religion alike can be very controversial (definitely topics you want to avoid at the dinner table). I think CoolCat is referring to the stigma placed on individual vegans by the "Vegan Police" and judgmental members of society, am I correct?

[Crusty Rat]

"Veganish" is better than full-on carnist, but it does somewhat miss the point. Veganism isn't something to be quiet and ashamed about - whilst I often feel anxious, I think most conversations about veganism are worthwhile. Provided the person isn't totally closed-minded you're gonna make them think a bit and make the concept of veganism seem less alien. Also, if there's no vegan food about, wouldn't you want to change it rather than supporting the current state of affairs?

[CoolCat]

I'm not understanding where stigma comes into this, to be honest?


I think CoolCat is referring to the stigma placed on individual vegans by the "Vegan Police" and judgmental members of society, am I correct?

No religious people are often thought of as nutjobs, crazy fundamentalist or gullable people of low intelligence etc. If we can't have the legal benefits (vegan holidays, government subsidizing,...) then I'd rather keep veganism far away from religion. Also I'm sure you can find vegans having/following any of the widespread religions. If veganism would be considered a religion it would compete with the others, not be an addition to them. People tend to choose a religion or are forced into one by their upbringing, bireligious people are unheard of I think. I think I talked enough about religion for a while, I feel itchy and think I'm developing a rash. I'm kinda allergic to religions :p

[leedsveg]

That's a person who does not eat animal products as long as it is not too difficult, insensitive or inconvenient.

VeganAthlete. You ascribed the above quote to me but I think you'll find it was Andy_T who actually said it.

CoolCat. I don't believe that Joanne Stepaniak was really linking veganism with Catholicism or Judaism. She was only using aspects of those religions to make a point (that both you and I agree with) about veganism. She could equally have talked about somebody who wore an Oxford University scarf in the mistaken belief (of the wearer) that this automatically turned them into an Oxford University student. From what you say about religion, I can appreciate that your antipathy towards it, is pretty strong. :-)

Leedsveg

[CoolCat]

VeganAthlete. You ascribed the above quote to me but I think you'll find it was Andy_T who actually said it.

CoolCat. I don't believe that Joanne Stepaniak was really linking veganism with Catholicism or Judaism. She was only using aspects of those religions to make a point (that both you and I agree with) about veganism. She could equally have talked about somebody who wore an Oxford University scarf in the mistaken belief (of the wearer) that this automatically turned them into an Oxford University student. From what you say about religion, I can appreciate that your antipathy towards it, is pretty strong. :-)

Leedsveg


To bad this is "only" a forum and not print. Otherwise we could update the wiki article because yours is better.
Wikipedians seem to insist that people who print their opinions have more value than others. Elitists bastards :p

[leedsveg]

^^^I do like Joanne Stepaniak though and her book Being Vegan is my favourite vegan book. Her ideas on veganism and compassion seem to correspond with what we know about the ethics of Donald Watson.

Good wishes:thumbsup:

Leedsveg

[Andy_T]

There are court rulings from Californian courts stating that veganism isn't a religion though. If we can't have the legal benefits from being a religion I don't want stigmas or other crap of it either. :p

No problem, you can always simply become a Jain.
Then you can rightfully and legally claim that consuming non-vegan items is against your religious beliefs.

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

Hi Andy
If veganism is more than "not eating animals", then would eating a piece of your grandmother-made birthday cake that has a minute amount of a non-vegan ingredient, be any worse than sitting in a leather covered seat on a train journey?

Leedsveg:-)

Leedsveg, I do not see it that way (and I did give it some serious thought). Most of the times, there is no way to escape sitting on a leather-covered seat in a train or airplane, if they only have these, or driving with your car on a road made with animal ingredients, other than not to travel. (I'm lucky in Germany, because they only have leather upholstery in "first class" trains, "second class" which I use for cost reasons only has plush upholstery ;-) ).

I never had troubles, however, escaping eating a cake made with eggs and dairy. I guess the people who offered it to me would be more surprised if I ate it "as an exception" and then claimed to "normally" be vegan and not eat any animal products because the plight of animals is important to me. The next thing to offer might then be "just this one steak, c'mon, it really tastes good ... just this time" and so on.

I had the example actually from the discussion of this article here, which I find troubling: http://www.carpevegan.com/?page_id=352

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

Uh, ummm this doesn't really qualify someone as vegan or following a 'vegan diet', does it? :pissed_ani:
That's like someone going vegan because they don't want to bother purchasing eggs, dairy, meats, etc. I can understand someone feeling bad about offending someone, but I think most people would understand the motives of your conviction. Most family members and friends will pick on me for being "picky" during a cookout or a dinner because I am not eating what they cooked or baked. I usually just tell them that I prepared my own food before hand because I am vegan and don't want to inconvenience them into making separate food for me. Similarly, I'll bring my own pasties, cookies, cake or cupcake and offer them some. The veganish concept you mention is a little deceptive. Interesting to learn about, but not very vegan.

VA, you are absolutely spot on. Mind you, I do not have a problem with people eating meat, fish, dairy and eggs only once in a while - that's better than eating those products for every meal.

I just would not want that they call themselves vegans, if they are not.

Best regards,
Andy

[leedsveg]

Andy_T, I totally understand what you're saying. For me though, things are not always clearcut. I think I may have previously mentioned that my mother once made me a casserole using Beanfeast which probably contained half a spoonful of powdered milk. Now I could have kept to "the letter of the law of veganism", refused to eat it and upset a 91 year old woman. I chose to eat it though which seemed the more compassionate thing to do and more in line with "the spirit of veganism".

I also recently chose to have the flu-jab (for those 65+) although I understood that the vacine culture is grown in hen's eggs. Other vegans may have chosen not to have the jab potentially causing harm to their own health, as well as to the health of other older people they were in contact with. As the writer Joanne Stepaniak says in her book, veganism is about "Do[ing] the least harm and the most good". It's up to us as individuals to determine what that means for us personally when we put that into practice. I can well understand the "slippery slope argument" but if we turn veganism into going to extreme lenghts "to avoid ingesting a grain of animal product", then we risk coming over as pharisaic.

Cheers

Leedsveg:thumbsup: