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eve
Mar 16th, 2005, 08:21 AM
Today there was a discussion between three eminent scientists in this field, but as to finding less damaging ways to fuel ourselves, the best solution they could come up with, was to go nuclear - though they agreed that the downside of that is getting rid of the waste, an impossibility!

Sorry to be gloomy kokopelli, but it's a question of being realistic or crossing your fingers and hoping that scientists will solve all problems. As for the exponential side of things, it is obvious as far as vivisection is concerned, for example, there are heaps more people working for an end to this torture. Nevertheless the number of nonhumans being assassinated on a daily basis has grown exponentially. Similarly with an increase in the number of people becoming veggie or vegan, this hasn't come to a whisker of reducing the number of nonhumans being killed day in day out. People out there eat meat and enjoy it, and their numbers are increasing - just see how people in the far east who used not to eat much meat, are now eating burgers on a daily basis.

I'm not saying let's curl up and die, yes we can do whatever we can, but wearing rose-coloured glasses is hardly sensible.

kokopelli
Mar 16th, 2005, 08:33 AM
Well at least energy scarcity might get people to concentrate their minds on what's really essential for survival, and cut out all the unnecessary crap which just wastes resources, causes pollution and clutters up our lives.

I know what you mean, it feels like we're on a juggernaut riding towards the edge with too much momentum to slow down, let alone turn around. I don't think we can rely on the state to steer us out of danger (particularly the US, the way Bush won't sign the Kyoto treaty, etc, because of it's effect on the economy :mad: ), it's down to individuals changing the way they live...although, in the EU we do have these environmental targets, for CO2 emissions etc and I feel it's taken much more seriously here, although definitely not nearly seriously enough. And it's extremely hard to break out of habitual patterns, but as vegans, we know it can be done, and that it feels good to do it! ;)

Eve, I just noticed your post, I agree and I don't have rose-coloured glasses, but I do live in hope, otherwise I really couldn't see the point of living at all. As for people in the Far East eating burgers, hopefully ( :rolleyes: ) the news will get through about how switching to the western diet causes obesity, cancer, heart disease, etc. and the healthy veg-based diet will become cool.

PinkFluffyCloud
Mar 16th, 2005, 08:38 AM
What we need is a Hippy Revolution! :)

kokopelli
Mar 16th, 2005, 08:43 AM
Yay!!! :)

phillip888
Mar 17th, 2005, 01:24 AM
Um, so has anyone established that edible plants can or can not be grown in Norway yet?
Is the most northern tip of Norway colder than the interior of Alaska during winter (-45C), or colder during summer (27C). Because there are hundreds of vegetable farms in Alaska near fairbanks. I lived there as a teen, and could have easily grown a few tons of produce myself. Long northern summer days allow the growth of some pretty big produce, and well it's not hard to store veggies when it's freezing outside.

An interesting concept though, that there is somehow ubundant plant life in Norway, but that growing edible plants is somehow impossible or impractical compared to feeding animals. It takes a certain 'special' thought process you know...



Kokopelli, hemp and/or cannabis oil and seed meal have some amazing nutritional value. Have you made that known anywhere here? Like the health forum?

Korn
Mar 19th, 2005, 08:22 AM
Um, so has anyone established that edible plants can or can not be grown in Norway yet?
Is the most northern tip of Norway colder than the interior of Alaska during winter (-45C), or colder during summer (27C). Because there are hundreds of vegetable farms in Alaska near fairbanks. I lived there as a teen, and could have easily grown a few tons of produce myself. Long northern summer days allow the growth of some pretty big produce, and well it's not hard to store veggies when it's freezing outside.

I've never been up there, but it's probably the same climate there as in Northern Alaska (Brrrrr....). In Norway, keeping eatable plants in the snow in order to store them for use during the winter is an old tradition (that probably died when people got freezers).


Kokopelli, hemp and/or cannabis oil and seed meal have some amazing nutritional value. Have you made that known anywhere here? Like the health forum? I just split this thread and moved the cannabis posts to the cannabis thread :)

kokopelli
Mar 19th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Um, so has anyone established that edible plants can or can not be grown in Norway yet?

An interesting concept though, that there is somehow ubundant plant life in Norway, but that growing edible plants is somehow impossible or impractical compared to feeding animals. It takes a certain 'special' thought process you know...

But animals can live in places where it would be much harder for humans...my partner told me reindeer survive on lichens growing on rocks under the snow...and I know people have eaten lichen in times of famine, but it's not exactly a food of choice!

Although you could argue that modern people have severely limited the variety of foods they are willing to consume, there are so many nutritious wild foods we ignore, preferring the bland supermarket offerings. I bet in Norway you get Dutch cherry tomatoes and peppers just like we do in the UK. One thing that delights me about growing my own food is all the different varieties of vegetables you can grow yourself, which aren't available in supermarkets, and there are lots of old cultivars and unusual plants which are suited to different climates.

DianeVegan
May 29th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I just finished a book "Silent Snow" by Marla Cone. It's about the poisoning of the Arctic, specifically the whales, seals, polar bears and people by DDT, dioxin, PCBs, etc. that have built up in the environment and made their way north. As I was reading this book I came to the realization that there ARE some people who do not have the resources to have food shipped to them and must rely on their surroundings. There are some tribes living in the arctic who eat a lot of fish to survive. They have lived there for generations, their land does not support crops and they don't have jobs (or money) to purchase the very expensive food that gets shipped a few times a year. We are all wealthy enough to have jobs, computers and choices.

I pondered many times while reading this book whether or not these people could ever become vegans. I kept coming back to "no", not if they were to remain living on their traditional land, with their traditional language and culture.

I am sure many of you will disagree with me. And to you I say please first read this book and tell me that you could see a way for them to become vegan. These are not those living in Norway with even beef or chickens as options. These are true "snow" people surviving on the ocean.

(and now I am going to leave this forum for two weeks to go to Alaska, where I will be surviving on many vegan bars.....)

kokopelli
May 30th, 2005, 05:15 PM
As I was reading this book I came to the realization that there ARE some people who do not have the resources to have food shipped to them and must rely on their surroundings. There are some tribes living in the arctic who eat a lot of fish to survive. They have lived there for generations, their land does not support crops and they don't have jobs (or money) to purchase the very expensive food that gets shipped a few times a year. We are all wealthy enough to have jobs, computers and choices.

I pondered many times while reading this book whether or not these people could ever become vegans. I kept coming back to "no", not if they were to remain living on their traditional land, with their traditional language and culture.

I am sure many of you will disagree with me. And to you I say please first read this book and tell me that you could see a way for them to become vegan. These are not those living in Norway with even beef or chickens as options. These are true "snow" people surviving on the ocean.

I agree with you, Dianecrna. Obviously there are tribal people who live in harmony with their environment as hunters, and actually veganism in those circumstances would be practically impossible, and maybe even undesirable from an environmental point of view.

I don't think those kind of people are the problem, really, because they're part of the ecosystem they inhabit, just like other animals. As you say, we have choices, and we've also developed the industrial agriculture system that's threatening the ecosystem, largely due to having to support 'two population explosions', the human one and the farm animals bred for consumption and exploitation. And lots of those chemicals would be unnecessary if we only fed ourselves. I live in an animal farming area, and it's shocking how much agricultural chemical pollution goes on, from the tons of nitrate fertiliser applied only to make grass grow quicker for silage, to the 'roundup' used to kill all vegetation in the fields prior to reseeding, to the annual sheep dip which can kill ALL invertebrates in the fresh waters, even just the amount a sheep will shake off its coat. Something like 1 drop would poison an entire olympic swimming pool full of water. But it's still permitted for use, and farmers are advised to dispose of used dip by spreading it on fields away from watercourses

:eek:

DianeVegan
Jun 14th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Wow, Kokopelli, and I always thought I would like to live in an agricultural area :(
I've been interested in people of northern climates for some time and just returned from visiting Alaska. It is possible to be vegan there if you live in one of the more densely populated areas and have a lot of money. Because everything comes by barge, and everything is really expensive. There is a lot of subsistence living going on in the islolated areas and with a very short growing season it's difficult to recover from a bad gardening summer.

Those who hunt the animals and fish in the native areas really have respect for the animals and earth. They don't understand how the rest of us live so disconnected from animals. I couldn't live the way they do but respect that they at least are living within their confines.

As an aside, there are no 100% vegetarian restaurants in Alaska. However, you can find vegan options in some of the vegetarian-friendly restaurants.