Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

[spo]

Hi, Tails and Hi, Seaside
I would have posted my own remarks, here, but, you both said exactly what I would have liked to say. So, a BIG THANK YOU to both of you for posting. ;)
BTW, didn't Korn definitively post to ChartT to say that a FLESH EATER
is not a vegan? So, why is ChartT still debating this, as if we can be convinced? :confused:
spo

[Mozbee]

CharT this may already have been covered you obviously care strongly about sentient life. Thankfully your lifestyle, like the vegan way, ensures to the highest feasible degree, the ellimination of abuse of land & air sentients through actions.
However your taste for certain seafoods will no doubt have a direct affect on other forms of sealife - sealife which you do consider to have brains, central nervous systems and are therefore capable of feeling pain. Suffocation - not a nice way to go, but fisherman don't care - do you?

[Happiness]

Yet there's no brain, and no centralized nervous system; no thought and no feeling, as there's no way to process these functions. Eating them or not falls into a gray area where there are no rights and no wrongs, only choices.

How about this perspective: The consumption of oysters does support the oyster farming industry which has direct harmful effects to the environment and the other organsims in the area. Here are a few quotes:

"Effluent resulting from aquaculture activities can contain many pollutants which are harmful to the waterways environment. These can include nutrients and organic matter. Organic waste from excess food and fish faeces, or shellfish pseudo-faeces, which settles onto the waterway's floor can pollute the area. Oyster farming, with the oysters raised on racks in shallow estuarine waters, can also have a number of harmful effects on the estuarine environment. First, oyster leases are `out of bounds' to other waterway users (sailors, boat fishers etc.). Second, if oyster racks are poorly aligned to the prevailing currents, they don't flush very well, which means that wastes can build up in the area. Realigning oyster racks to suit ebb and flood tide currents helps both the flushing of the lease areas and oyster growth." http://www.wrc.wa.gov.au/region/southcoast/resources/awrb/c7.2.html

This is a quote relating to aquaculture and its effects of the environment:
"Disturbance to the benthic (sea-floor) environment. Activities associated with oyster farms in particular can have an adverse impact on the benthic environment. Trampling by farm workers can also cause damage.
Impact on sediment quality. The deposition of organic matter on sediments directly underneath farms has the potential to accumulate and potentially impact on naturally occurring plants and animals."
http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/reporting/coast/aquaculture.html

Fecal matter has high nitrogen content which at high levels stimulates the growth of algae blooms which in turn consumes alot of oxygen from the water. This makes it pretty hard for other fish, inverts, plants, anything to exist in the area down-current from the farm. It is the same for fish farms and oyster farms. This is a pretty big problem. Does anyone know about the "dead zone" around the mouth of the mississippi river? This is exactly what happened there. Nitrogen rich ferterlizer and run-off from cow farms is the cause for that. Too much nitrogen = bad news for marine ecosystems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happiness
And I know I am new to veganism and I still have the stars in my eyes but from what I have read veganism was founded on the principle of ahimsa (dynamic harmlessness) and that it is not "sufficient to simply avoid specific foods and products; it is neccessary to actively participate in beneficial selfless actions as well". And in my book that means every living creature is sacred in its own right. Brain or no brain. We are all connected and one.



Would you a reference to this information? A URL would helpt. Thanks!

Its acually from a book. Here is a link to the Amazon page for it.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0737303239/104-0006246-2323901?v=glance

[Seaside]

Postyed by Happiness:

Too much nitrogen = bad news for marine ecosystems.

You are so right, Happiness! Nitrites and nitrates, the products of the breakdown of ammonia wastes that come not only from outside sources, but the marine organisms themselves, are not just detrimental to the ocean environment because they promote algal blooms, they are directly poisonous to marine creatures just as our own urine is poisonous to us! If the oyster racks are preventing the ocean currents from exerting their cleansing abilities, then supporting the oyster industry is like forcing all the animals, sentient or not so sentient, to simultaneously bathe in their own urine and suffocate. :(

[Mozbee]

In a basic Google search "scallops+fishing" the first option given, lead me to 'Marine Department' data, http://www.shab.org/mdgd.htm
The first page which can be accessed from this data refers to scallops as 'animals'!

[sugarmouse]

[QUOTE=John]CharT, I'm sure that you are a nice person, most meat-eaters are, but you are not a vegan. Not in practice and not in spirit.

as my posts indicate i am new here and i am not abouto to begin to throw my weight around.but to me if you consume these living things, you are not a vegetarian...you are someone who does not eat red meat or dairy products..im sure someoen has a definition for this somhow..i know there are different degrees of measuring what is cruel and what isnt, and to whwat extent and it seems this is the way you work... and to me that is a lot better than someobody who guzzles dairy and eats meat as a rule. but to quote what john said, i beleive i know what was meant, someone who is vegan in spirit would not have the desire to consume a living thing anyhow..i am not judging you..JMHO.... and i agreed with this bit aswell.


Whether an animal feels pain during death or not, a vegan won't eat an animal. If the animal were unconscious, or even feeling pleasure during death, a vegan would not eat an animal.

[Realfood Mary]

I'm deeply enjoying this thread and everyones input. I'm new here and a bit shy of talking on such a hot topic but as a marine biology student I thought I'd throw in my two bits:

Oysters are part of the phylum molluska (as we've determined) and while they have no brain they do have three pairs of ganglia. Ganglia is a grouping of nerve cells essentially. They also have a heart. And blood. And gills. They are acually towards the top of phylogenetic tree for inverts. Species of bivalves have been found in fresh water, salt water and even thermal vents where they rotate from areas of high sulfur concentrations (for feeding) to low (to keep from poisoning their blood). Damn that's cool, these animals have my respect.

And I know I am new to veganism and I still have the stars in my eyes but from what I have read veganism was founded on the principle of ahimsa (dynamic harmlessness) and that it is not "sufficient to simply avoid specific foods and products; it is neccessary to actively participate in beneficial selfless actions as well". And in my book that means every living creature is sacred in its own right. Brain or no brain. We are all connected and one.
:) Excellent! Nice to read from a new vegan who really is a vegan. Thanks!!!! You have cheered me up immensley.

Mary

[Kevster]

Thought i'd chuck this little wonder story in here, it's intrinsically moronic,

'Lawyer invents lobster stun-gun
Lobsters could soon be "crusta-stunned" to death, if an invention by a British barrister takes off.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4097798.stm

[sugarmouse]

Quote from the above website - "Live lobsters can be humanely killed by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for about two hours" Lloyd Burgess (TV chef) - maybe he should be frozen to within 1degree Celcius of life just to give him some idea!

Being Boiled Hurts - Lobster Liberation

:confused: :confused: :confused: how the **** so they work out that that is humane?!?

thanky mozbee..i am named after a hamster funnily enough!lol
:)

[Cryospark]

I guess it slows them down to hibernative state but it's still bloody cold, guess better then being boiled alive.
Someone mentioned canines I'd think these were designed to be used in adverse weather conditions when there was no food about, the person would be forced to eat meat as a basic survival function. Though our digestive system makes us generally herbivores

Using then to contend that we are omnivores is a rubbish claim, we certainly are not, consumption of meat causes far to much unbalanced dysfunction.

[spo]

Quote from the above website - "Live lobsters can be humanely killed by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for about two hours" Lloyd Burgess (TV chef) - maybe he should be frozen to within 1degree Celcius of life just to give him some idea!

Being Boiled Hurts - Lobster Liberation
Another really disturbing example of human cruelty. Why on earth would this be considered humane?? :cool:
spo :(

[Cal]

This freezer method is suggested as a humane method of killing cane toads here in Aus. :( I have read somewhere that freezing is certainly not humane and I too can't imagine why anyone would think it is. :confused:

[Seaside]

I know why this is considered "humane". Since the humane treatment of animals allows for killing them when "necessary", freezing a lobster is considered "humane", because the lobster (or any other animal) is found not to have suffered the expected trauma that other types of killing may induce. Freezing causes animals to simply go to sleep, which is more humane than being boiled alive, I suppose. I mean, I guess I would rather go to sleep in the snow and never wake up, rather than be thrown into a pot of boiling water! Of course, the lobster shouldn't have to choose between those two kinds of murder in the first place! But that's why humane societies are called "humane" societies, and not "ethical" societies. "Ethical" societies would never kill homeless animals, or turn them over to labs and pet food companies. :mad:

[Mozbee]

Humans can be weird :mad:

[spo]

Humans can be weird :mad:
I agree, Moz
Poor lobsters - why can't we just leave them alone? :mad:
spo

[Mozbee]

Sorry I just got into the flow, wasn't exactly a poet at school either! :o

Don't be a nobster
By eating lobster
Rid your hunger
With a vegan taste-bud quencher
But most importantly of all
The lobsters can then live
Happilly afterall!

[sugarmouse]

i agree we should just leave them alone to live thier natural lives like we do :(
its sad killing something in any way is thought of as humane!

[Cryospark]

if they insist on a humane way why don't they knock them out with chloraform or something first

[Seaside]

Posted by Mozbee:

Don't be a nobster
By eating lobster
Rid your hunger
With a vegan taste-bud quencher
But most importantly of all
The lobsters can then live
Happilly afterall!
:p
You're a poet, and I didn't know it!

[Seaside]

:p

[Wildflower]

They are not capable of thinking, much less having an interest in continuing to exist.

If they do not have an interest to exist, why do they? These animals defiantely spawn and repopulate.

By the way, vegan is about caring for others. It is about standing up and having a voice for animals that cannot speak for themselves. The fact that they lack what we perceive as intelligence, is all the more reason not to eat them. They simply do not know better, and we do.

Placing a value on life based on perceived intelligience is one of the worst things I have ever heard. Do you know what you are saying?

[Wishin986]

I want to start off by saying: I know I'm posting somewhat late in this thread but I found it absolutely fascinating so couldn't resist even if the issue at hand is a closed one

quick anecdotal introduction :p :

During one of my senior year english classes in high school we often had discussions having to do with issues such as what it meant to be civilized and cultured etc. Most of these discussions generated much debate due to the fact that people's definitions were often different from one another. However, everytime one of these topics arose I quickly ran over to the dictionary to give the literal definition so we would all be on the same page for a jumping off point and it quickly became a running joke.

Therefore, staying true to myself I consulted my good friend Miriam-Webster:

First step was looking up the definition of a Vegan:


Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
Function: noun
Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)

Next step was looking up the definition of an animal:


Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from animale, neuter of animalis animate, from anima soul -- more at ANIMATE
1 : any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation

As long as we all agree on the fact that the Miriam-Webster Dictionary is a good resource and quite factual when it comes to defining words in the english language - I think it is safe to say that mussels and clams etc. do fall under the "do not eat" section of being a vegan.

However, I do want to say that I have a lot of respect for ChartT. I think it is extremely important to think through your beliefs and ideals and question and to really take the time to figure out what you believe is right in your heart and why. I feel like too many people in America today and in the World even just follow certain doctorines and beliefs blindly and the fact that you did such extensive research and really tried to disect your beliefs and let it marinate is very commendable. However, in the end, for myself and just going off of basic definitions, it is not okay to eat mussels, clams, scallops, etc. on the basis that they are in fact animals and vegans do not eat animals. :)

[veganrockchick]

:eek: Nooo!! A vegan can't eat mussells etc!
Hi All, Im New.. Sarah aged 15, a vegan from Bristol, UK.

CharT If you are consuming them whatever your debate (Which i don't agree with anyway) you are directly supporting the cruel fishing trade who are sweeping clean the Ocean's for 'sea food'. Please don't suppport them; its like a vegan (so say) not eating lamb but wearing wool. :(

Sarah

[sugarmouse]

Placing a value on life based on perceived intelligience is one of the worst things I have ever heard. Do you know what you are saying?


i agree wildflower.if i didnt..i would be inclined to say come on i know plenty of stupid people..lets eat chuck them on a plate and eat them aswell... :eek:

[Alpha Jerk]

My mother just gave me a vegetarian cook book and it actually says there are a variety of semi-vegetarians. One is called a mollo-vegetarian, which is a vegetarian who consumes clams, scallops, oysters and other mollusks. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

"Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook" page 15