Abortion

[greenworlds]

lucky you'll never have to get pregnant then, isn't it?

Not sure I'm lucky, if I was born a female I might think it worth the pains of pregnancy to give birth to new life, I'll never know. It's just a real shame so many ppl put sexual intercourse before a person life.

[adam antichrist]

Ladies it's easier to sterilise your partner than yourself. Microwave all his food, use lots of cottonseed oil for cooking, tell him he looks sexy in nylon underwear. Make sure he carries his mobile phone in his pocket next to his nuggets. Buy lots of wireless communication equipment and set them up around his side of the bed or favourite chair just to be on the safe side. And if his sperm are still jumping, offer to pay for the visectomy.

[my3labs]

How can the murder of a child be any different or more acceptable than the murder of a cow or chicken or dog?
The saying that it's a woman's right because it's her body is crap! When you harm another being (human, animal, etc), it is no longer about your body.
Abortion is murder, pure and simple. I'm shocked that vegans would find it acceptable. How can we as vegans stand up for the animals that are being slaughtered but then turn around and say that we are ok with a child being killed (and don't give me that "it's just a fetus" line)?
Women are raped, people are shot...bad shit happens, but to take a life because of it is wrong. It is not that child's fault that her mother was raped by some creep. I was the victim of a very violent crime so I speak from some experience. It stays with you forever and you never forget it. Having an abortion does not take away the pain, it just inflicts more.

[mophoto]

i could have very well end up as an abortion FETUS but my young parents kept me. i got lucky, i guess. i grew up in a catholic school enviroment and for a few of my frends keeping their babies was not even an option- they would have been disowned by their families and lived a miserable life.
maybe to prevent so many abortions better sex education should be taught by schools and parents-- not likely.

i do feel that once you reach a certain age you should be more responsible and keep your damn fetus... but that's just my opinion.
woman do have a choice and for that i am thankful

[LittleNellColumbia]

Ladies it's easier to sterilise your partner than yourself. Microwave all his food, use lots of cottonseed oil for cooking, tell him he looks sexy in nylon underwear. Make sure he carries his mobile phone in his pocket next to his nuggets. Buy lots of wireless communication equipment and set them up around his side of the bed or favourite chair just to be on the safe side. And if his sperm are still jumping, offer to pay for the visectomy.

Bahahahahahahaha:p

[absentmindedfan]

Ok. Whether you think abortion is right or not, it has to be legal. Making it illegal only pushes the abortion trade underground, and what would you rather have:
1. Legal abortion done by a doctor in a hospital to ensure safety of the mother.
or..
2.Illegal abortion done by a woman in a back room with no painkillers or hygenic equipment? In some areas they use a metal coathanger (unfolded so just the hook at the end is left) pierce the womb and hook the baby's head out with the coat hanger. Hmm. Safe. Or there's the old classic of drinking plenty of gin, having a hot bath and throwing yourself down the stairs to make sure you miscarry.

Some women use abortion as a form of contraception (though I think this is more younger women using the emergency pill more than actual abortions) but most have abortions because they feel they canot cope with having a baby, for whatever reason. It is every woman's right to have a safe abortion in a medical enivronment. Besides, it's not as though having an abortion is a decision taken lightly by most women, and the physical and emotional long-term effects are huge.
At the end of the day, ANYONE who has sex has to take into consideration that accidents can happen, and it is the responsibility of every sexually active adult (especially women as it is their bodies it is affecting) to be prepared for this. Demonising the women who have abortions as 'murderers' is not helpful.

However, I do like Adam's idea....Don't really hot showers around the ballbag help kill off sperm too?

[adam antichrist]

However, I do like Adam's idea....Don't really hot showers around the ballbag help kill off sperm too?

Ohhh, I'll give it a go!!!

Actually the reason the testes are kept outside the body in "the ballbag" is because sperm need to be manufactured and/or stored at a temperature lower than body temperature. AM-fan has thus inspired a few new ideas:

wear gloves when performing handjobs
slip a hot water bottle between his legs when he's alseep
every time you make a cuppa for him accidentally tip it on his crotch

and if all else fails, just jump up and down on them! And if you still get preggers, he can repay the favour :p

[Lagamorph]

How can the murder of a child be any different or more acceptable than the murder of a cow or chicken or dog?
The saying that it's a woman's right because it's her body is crap! When you harm another being (human, animal, etc), it is no longer about your body.
Abortion is murder, pure and simple. I'm shocked that vegans would find it acceptable. How can we as vegans stand up for the animals that are being slaughtered but then turn around and say that we are ok with a child being killed (and don't give me that "it's just a fetus" line)?


Actually, its not a child. Its a fetus. You can get into some really crazy and circular debates with this one. You can also claim that each ejaculation, each ovulation seems like you are killing the potential for life.
I know it may seem backwards to you, and convoluted. Its sounds hypocritical to say that its not ok to kill animals to eat, but the fetus growing inside me is ok to kill. The issue here is CHOICE. And I am sorry, but I truly believe that since it is the womans body that will be going through either an abortion of 9 months of pregnancy (not to mention the emotional rollercoaster of the consequences of either of the actions) that it is her choice, HERS ALONE.
There are always people who would abuse the system, and the irresponsible ones that don't care about the consequences of irresponsible sex. But would you really wanna force them to carry their baby to term? If they don't care about their bodies, what makes you think they will care about anothers? What kind of mothers do you think they will make? What kind of environment do you think the child will grow up in?

At the end, just thank your lucky stars that you dont have to go through that decision. The situation will vary for everyone, and I don't think anyone is in any condition to judge others for the choices they make.

[greenworlds]

How can the murder of a child be any different or more acceptable than the murder of a cow or chicken or dog?
The saying that it's a woman's right because it's her body is crap! When you harm another being (human, animal, etc), it is no longer about your body.
Abortion is murder, pure and simple. I'm shocked that vegans would find it acceptable. How can we as vegans stand up for the animals that are being slaughtered but then turn around and say that we are ok with a child being killed (and don't give me that "it's just a fetus" line)?

I agree, accepting abortion is not vegan. Abortion is another way of excising power in saying who should be allowed to live and who should not.. how many people who have authorized an abortion have let the next baby live?

[adam antichrist]

abortion is not vegan.

Fuck off idiot.

[Lagamorph]

I don't think the issue is whether it is right or wrong, rather whether it is right for you! Just because you may think that its not right does not make it bad. Either way, one has to live with the consequences.

[grail]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9269073/

"Fetuses feel pain in the third trimester"
"Babies show signs of crying in the womb"

Fetuses are not just blobs of tissue. Sperm and eggs are tissue, there is a difference. If vegans are very careful to avoid causing pain in animals that aren't as "developed" or "complex," like fish and insects, shouldn't the same rule apply to fetuses? We should work to prevent pain to all species, not just animals.

[VeganJohn]

I am COMPLETELY in favour of a woman's right to choose.

I don't wish to comment any further on the matter.

[sugarmouse]

Ladies it's easier to sterilise your partner than yourself. Microwave all his food, use lots of cottonseed oil for cooking, tell him he looks sexy in nylon underwear. Make sure he carries his mobile phone in his pocket next to his nuggets. Buy lots of wireless communication equipment and set them up around his side of the bed or favourite chair just to be on the safe side. And if his sperm are still jumping, offer to pay for the visectomy.


PMSL

or just always offer to swallow ;)

my mom tried the gin/bath com,bination with my sis.obviously didnt work ..only a bit anyways!

abortion not vegan?i care about animals..ppl i can take or leave..dodgy soundign i know, but true.and i dont think veganism has human rights anywhere in its definition.
i dont eat ppl either..wahts the opposite of cannibalism?maybe thats what abortion isnt?at a stretch?

[Seaside]

I am against abortion myself. I would never have one. Fortunately I have never been pregnant. However, I would not want to make abortion illegal. There must be a compelling reason behind every abortion that happens, and I am not interested in judging people who have them done. I wouldn't say a person is not vegan if they have an abortion.

However, I think abortion cannot be considered vegan. Someone is being killed. You can call it a fetus, or whatever, but, though it may not be a human, it is a living thing, and it is being killed. Trying to dance around the issue just makes us look like omnis trying to justify killing animals for food. If a person feels very strongly that they must have an abortion, then they should be able to have it, but at the same time, face up to the fact that they are killing someone, that this is against their ethics, and that the extremity of their situation is forcing them to go against their ethics. This happens to all of us from time to time, and we have to find ways to deal with it for our own sakes. But saying "its only a fetus" is like saying "its only an animal".

[Lagamorph]

However, I think abortion cannot be considered vegan. Someone is being killed. ..... But saying "its only a fetus" is like saying "its only an animal".

Good point Seaside. However, a fetus is still a fetus, just like an animal fetus. I would not oppose an animal having an abortion if the life of that animal was in jeapordy, Would you? (considering I we can not compare the full social ramifications of a pregnancy of an animal versus a human, I am using the life in jeapordy example)

A fetus and a full born animal are not the same thing. And eating animals versus supporting pro choice are two seperate matters in my opinion. I am not trying to ethically justify by beliefs, rather point out that they are two seperate things.

[greenworlds]

Here here!!! Took the words from my mouth Adam!!

Greenworlds- You say how many people have killed one baby but let the next one live? I have ate and wore animals before I went vegan but now I choose to let them live- Does that make me less of a vegan aswell then?

Do you really think you deserve an answer from me after agreeing with the verbal attack Anti-Christ just made towards me?

I will answer it as it is a good question that others might read ( not because you have asked it).

If a person has had an abortion but wouldn't have another one and didn't encourage others to have one..then you are not participating in killing, cruelty etc, much like omnivores turned vegan, so can be called vegan.

if someone believes a fetus is not part of the human race..no feelings rights etc..do they believe it is ok to do experiments on them? also would they think it is alright to eat fetuses? if not, why not?

[sugarmouse]

i agree..we are discussing personal ethic choices here, or personal definitions of what is vegan.

[John]

What is it like to believe that things are always black and white--right and wrong? What is it like to believe that any rule can validly apply to every situation?

[greenworlds]

I don't think the issue is whether it is right or wrong, rather whether it is right for you! Just because you may think that its not right does not make it bad. Either way, one has to live with the consequences.

I think it is a question of is it right or wrong in all issues that face us...ideally we would all be living to do what isright. RIGHT and WRONG are objective qualities, it's when we try to make them subjective that we make wrong decisions. The only guide line I can take is..if it harms/kills a human or any other species it has to be wrong.

[greenworlds]

What is it like to believe that things are always black and white--right and wrong? What is it like to believe that any rule can validly apply to every situation?

I think we humans have stooped so low and far away from how we should be living that we can't even be clear about what is right and wrong, sad. :(

[Lagamorph]

If a person has had an abortion but wouldn't have another one and didn't encourage others to have one..then you are not participating in killing, cruelty etc, much like omnivores turned vegan, so can be called vegan.

if someone believes a fetus is not part of the human race..no feelings rights etc..do they believe it is ok to do experiments on them? also would they think it is alright to eat fetuses? if not, why not?

Yes, that is why abortions are not performed in the second or third trimester. By then the fetus is becoming more sentient.

By the way, define human race. Its not just based on feellings and rights. And doing an experiment on a fetus, versus terminating a pregnancy before it becomes dangerous to the mother are completely different things. And eating fetuses? Where did this come from? I don't follow your logic.
I do not believe that experiments should be done on fetus, but I believe in pro choice. I think it would be more cruel, as you say, to bring an unwanted child to term and have it suffer in an environment it is not welcome in. And to be quite honest, I really don't care whether you think I am a vegan or not as a result. Shall we then be comparing how long I have been a vegan compared to you? These are trivial questions.

Do you also believe in euthanasia? Relieving someone of their suffering? How about organ donation? Blood donation? We are walking a fine line here. There is no black and white, only what matters to you in your specific situation.

[Lagamorph]

I think it is a question of is it right or wrong in all issues that face us...ideally we would all be living to do what isright. RIGHT and WRONG are objective qualities, it's when we try to make them subjective that we make wrong decisions. The only guide line I can take is..if it harms/kills a human or any other species it has to be wrong.

Lucky for you, you have always lived in a sheltered world free of violence and torment. Not all of us are that fortunate.

Do you also believe in the death penalty? What would you do if someone raped you? Your daughter? Your child?

[Seaside]

Good point Seaside. However, a fetus is still a fetus, just like an animal fetus. I would not oppose an animal having an abortion if the life of that animal was in jeapordy, Would you? I already said I do not oppose other people having abortions.
However, I would not want to make abortion illegal.

abortions (considering I we can not compare the full social ramifications of a pregnancy of an animal versus a human, I am using the life in jeapordy example)Who decides which life is more important? Isn't making that decision the same as omnis deciding their lives are more important than the animals they kill?

A fetus and a full born animal are not the same thing. And eating animals versus supporting pro choice are two seperate matters in my opinion. I am not trying to ethically justify by beliefs, rather point out that they are two seperate things.
A fetus and a full born animal are both alive, which makes them the same thing to me. Omnis like to say that cats and dogs are not the same as cows and chickens. Its the same logic.

I don't want to prevent people from having abortions, or judge those who do. I just think we as vegans should not engage in the same sort of denial about what abortion is that omnis engage in about where their food comes from.

[DianeVegan]

I have not read all the previous threads.

Today I gave anesthesia to a woman for an abortion. I consider it part of my job and do not pass judgement. She was upset and cried. Her boyfriend also cried. She was poor. She had 3 other children who seldom see their fathers. She recently became an American citizen (4 weeks ago) and had no insurance. My department will not get paid and neither will the ob/gyn or the hospital. She received the same anesthesia I give for someone paying 100% of their bill.

She may have had an abortion because she was too sick to bear another child. Or because she was too poor to afford to bear a child ( Adoption? - people don't line up to pay the maternity bills for an unwed mother who may not know the name of the father). She may have gotten pregnant before she met this boyfriend and he didn't want another child. There may have been no fetal heart rate found on ultrasound, therefor the fetus was no longer viable. There may have been physical abnormalities that meant the baby would have been born and died within a few hours (or months after spending a lot of pain and resources in the hospital). She may have been so depressed after bearing her other children that she thought she would do something violent if she added one more to the mix. She may already abuse the children she has. She may have been raped by her father's best friend. Her boyfriend may have threatened her life if she didn't abort. She may not have cried. Her boyfriend may not have cried. She may have smoked crack 2 hours before coming into the hospital (looks the same when you're upset and have been crying). She may have been a vegan for life. She may have been a wealthy woman with all the resources to raise a child.

Guess what? The reason doesn't matter to me. I just pray that abortion doesn't become illegal. Because every reason above is the right reason for someone. And that fetus was coming out, with or without anesthesia, with or without proper medical care. It has always been that way and always will be that way, so long as unwanted pregnancies occur. And they always will.