Abortion

[greenworlds]

But there remains a significant difference between getting pregnant and eating meat. Noone can say that they went to the store, bought meat and ate it by accident. It's never a result of human fallibility - it's simply a very bad, lazy moral choice. Which we're entitled to condemn.

It's very differcult to get pregnant by'accident' Oh yeah there was that time a lady got pregnant when that guy sleep walked into that her bedroom and had sex and she thought it was a dream.

[greenworlds]

[/QUOTEgreenworlds]

Of course we ought to respect a person has a right to make a decision, but if that decision is harmful then they need to be enlightened..it's called wisdom( something we humans seem to be losing).

'QUOTE=TinaBoBina]Enlightened? Who is the ultimate decision-maker as to what enlightenment is? If you have cornered the market on the closed category of "wisdom", then congratulations- you've ended thousands of years of debate.

Many decisions are harmful. If you see someone eating many chocolate bars, should you snatch it away from them because YOU know better? If someone makes a bad career choice, should YOU be the one to step in to guide them? A large (and significant) part of the abortion debate is the issue of choice.

I believe that quote by einstein should be applied in action and not just read..the one refering to evil people not being the worst thing,but people that just stand by and let it happen.

Should a serial killer be allowed to choose to kill people? AND Yes we should take the choc and cigarette away if a person is damaging their and other peoples health..if they persist on carrying on, then they could do it in private..if someone is smoking in public in front of children etc..Yes take the cigarette away from them...thats better than letting them go down hill and promoting it.... Even warning someone about to have an abortion that they are about to end the early stage of someones life is better then denial.(Using scientific terms like 'cells' is no excuse as those kinds of terms are applied to adult humans by scientists in other situations.


THE MODERATOR HAS BLOCKED MY ANSWER TO LAGAMORPH'S POST 307 ( A FEW POSTS DOWN). IT IS VERY ANNOYING AS IT WAS QUITE A LONG RESPONSE WHICH I'M NOT GOIJNG TO GO OVER AGAIN, HOWEVER I WILL ANSWER A COUPLE OF HER POINTS.
I WASN'T COMPARING ABORTIONISTS TO SERIAL-KILLERS ( THOUGH IT IS A THOUGHT) I WAS MAKING A POINT ABOUT PEOPLES RIGHT TO MAKING DECISIONS..PEOPLES OBVIOUSLY HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE A VIEW, BUT WHEN LOOKING AT THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOMEONES VIEW THAT LEAD TO HARMFUL CONSEQUENCES THEN SHOULD THOSE VIEWS BE RESPECTED? THAT WAS MY POINT.

I DO THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE HIGHEST MORAL GROUND WE CAN IN THIS WORLD, HOW ELSE CAN WE HELP TO IMPROVE THE MESS SOME PPL HAVE MADE OF THE WORLD SO FAR. IF VEGANS CAN'T ACCEPT ACCEPT KILLING IS WRONG..WHAT HOPE DO WE HAVE?

IF YOU REFER TO THE EARLY LIFE OF A HUMAN BEING,IN THE MOTHERS WOMB, AS A 'PARASITE' ..THEN YOUR ACCEPT IT HAS SOME KIND OF WILL? IT COULD BE SAID THAT HUMANS IN GENERAL ARE PARASITES IN THIS WORLD.

REMEMBER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER PERSONS LIFE..NOT THE MOTHERS LIFE. THE BABY IS NOT THE MOTHER, THE MOTHER IS NOT THE BABY..IT IS NOT THE MOTHERS BODY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. I HAVE EVERY SYMPATHY WITH A MOTHER WHO IS PREGNANT..THEY NEED ALL THE HELP THEY CAN GET.

I BELIEVE ABORTION DEEPLY EFFECT EVERYONE AS THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT ALIVE TODAY THAT WOULD BE AND WE WOULD BE LIVING IN A DIFFERENT KIND OF WORLD I THINK A BETTER WORLD. I REALLY THINK WE ALL NEED TO THINK ABOUT THAT. PLAYING GOD WITH PEOPLES LIVES, DECIDING WHO SHOULD LIVE AND WHO SHOULDN'T IS A TERRIBLE GAME TO PLAY.

SOME MEAT EATERS NEED A KICK UP THE BACK END WHEN PROMOTING EATING ANIMALS, ESPECIALLY TO CHILDREN. EATING ANIMALS IS SO WRONG AND THEY NEED TO WAKE UP TO THAT FACT.
IN THE MEAT EATING WORLD YOU COULD EXPECT ABORTION BEING ACCEPTED AS A GOOD THING TO DO..BUT AMONGE VEGANS?? COME ON WE SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

KORN WHAT ARE YOU PLAYING AT?

[greenworlds]

[b]i Won't Be Posting Here Again As Not All Of My Posts Are Being Displayed, I Can Only Assume From This That The Moderater Has Chosen To Suppress Peace Promoting Views That He Doesn't Like To Read...if That Is The Case You Are Silencing Views That Seek To Harm None And Can Openly Been Read To See That Is The Case! If My Last Three Posts( Two Nothing To Do With Abortion) Havn't Been Moderated Then I Wonder Why They Havn't Been Displayed And Apologies To The Mod..if Not,can He Explain Why He HAS Moderated And Allow Others To Give Their Opinions On My Posts And Do A Vote!!

IF PEOPLE WORKED TOWARDS AN IDEAL WORLD NO HUMAN OR ANIMAL WOULD BEEN WILFULLY KILLED, NO PERSON WOULD EITHER CONSIDER ABORTING A CHILD,EVERY HUMAN WOULD BE A PRICELESS GIFT TO EACHOTHER AS WE PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD, LOVE PEACE AND COMPASSION WOULD BE EVOLVING QUALITIES TO EMBRACE ETC ETC ETC.I WILL ALWAYS SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE MINDLESS SLAUGHTER OF ANIMALS AND I DON'T RESPECT THE VIEW THAT EATING ANIMAL IS NATURE AND OK AND WILL SPEAK OUT TO THOSE INDULGING IN IT POLITELY AND NOT SO POLITELY WHEN NECESSARY..IF WE DON'T DO ALL WE CAN THINGS WILL BE SLOW TO CHANGE ETC ETC. TAKE CARE FELLOW VEGANS AND MODERATOR DON'T BE AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE VIEW THAT ANIMALS NEED TO BE PROTECTED FROM OTHER ANIMALS AS WELL AS FROM HUMANS.

I'M SURE IF CORN WAS PRO_LIFE HE WOULDN'T HAVE MODERATED ME..CARE TO ANSWER THAT HERE?

Sophisticating animal slaughter doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized.

[Nadine]

How is killing vegan?
If people want abortions I will not oppose them. But calling killing vegan is a mistake. Especially when it is voluntary killing. The argument has been made that vegans kill all kinds of microscopic critters like yeasts (which are plants, not animals) just by living and eating. This is unavoidable. Abortion is avoidable killing. We can call it whatever we want, if it makes us feel better, and we can find all kinds of eloquent reasons to justify it, just like the omnis do when justifying their wish to kill animals. But abortion is killing a living thing, and killing isn't vegan.

I don't think abortion & veganism are strictly linked as I think the issues surrounding abortion are too complex & I do not feel I could say someone is not a vegan because they have had an abortion, certainly not without knowing the reasons leading to that decision.
I personally would feel extremely uncomfortable having or performing an abortion(if I was qualified to do so). But there are circumstances when I would probably chose to have an abortion i.e. severe health problems, pregnancy by rape (& I guess a host of other situations I'm lucky not to be in).
If the decision to have the child would greatly damage my physical or mental health then having an abortion is not the same as choosing to be vegan to prevent cruelty.
Anyone who uses abortion as a form of birth control is hardly taking the easy route contraception-wise and I don't understand why anyone would choose to do that, if they do.
People make decisions to kill voluntarily by driving, if I ran something over killing it I don't stop driving even though I know it might happen again. Sometimes its a necessity a bit like having sex(depending on your drive having a good sex life can be v. important to your emotional well-being, I guess!).
In my ideal world people would not reproduce as easily as they do; I must admit when I see some of the mentally deficient (no, really) people I come across at work and they keep getting pregnant even though all of their children have to be taken into care for their own safety I find my (human) pro-life side hard to locate.
If people were sterilised until they said they wished to 'opt out' then I would consider making uncomplicated abortions illegal, ideally everyone would be vegan of course anyway.
Sorry to start saying ridiculous(?) things but I find it annoying when such solid statements are made regarding varied situations. A relative of mine commited suicide when she became pregnant having been raped by her father. He was my granddad, unfortunately abortion wasn't available to her at that time, at least now with abortion being legal she would have had another option.. and I would be more than willing to support abortion in that situation.
Anyway I'm still on the fence, I feel passionately about animal rights (& sometimes even human. Lol;) )but abortion is somewhere fairly low on my list of concerns, I suppose.

[Seaside]

.... I do not feel I could say someone is not a vegan because they have had an abortion, certainly not without knowing the reasons leading to that decision.

Neither do I, Nadine. I am sure that every single one of us vegans has had to do something unvegan at one time or another. It shouldn't stop us from considering ourselves vegan. We should simply recognize that we have done something that is not in accord with our highest ethics, and move on. Anyway, I don't think it is up to others to decide whether a person is vegan based on their actions. It is up to each of us to decide whether we are vegan according to the definition of veganism. :)

[Lagamorph]

Should a serial killer be allowed to choose to kill people? Obsolutely we should take the choc away..if someone is smoking in public in front of children etc..Yes take the cigarette away from them...thats better than letting them go down hill..sometimes to death. Even warning the oborter that they will be ending someones life...just about the earliest stage of their life is better then denial.

I really dont know how you can compare a serial killer with abortion. And what is this mighier than thou attitude? You seem to have found this magical moral code, and those that do not believe the exact same thing you do are seen as killers. The pro lifers always seem to side with a bunch cells, never the welfare of the woman. It is not "killing" a life, because it it was so, then every time a woman ovulated and let one of her eggs "die off" then that would also be committing murder. No? But that cant be true, because it would make you a murderer as well. If we were to take killing as black and white, (as you have suggested earlier), that means that we could not eat plants either. That is killing as well, is it not? What about yeast? Bacteria? Do you take medicine when you are sick? Well you should stop because as a pro lifer, you are being a hypocrite and killing the innocent virus. I dont care if you 'accidentally' caught it. What were you doing going to work? You knew it was the flu season. That poor virus. How dare you.

Waring the aborter that they are ending someones life? What gives you the right to go up to someone and lecture them about something as personal as that? Is it your body? Are they harming you in any way by going through it? You are basically standing up for a parasite (defn. something that feeds off another without a symbiotic benefit) rather than the welfare of a living human being. Now tell me, who has a difficulty with morals? We are not talking about torturing another fully sentient human being, rather getting rid of a bunch of cells. What is with the focus on the potential of the cells, rather than looking at them as they are. Just cells. Are you really going to force someone to go through a pregnancy? There are already way too many unwanted children in this world. Why bring more in?

I assumed (how silly of me) that all vegans would be supportive of choice. Like we have a choice NOT to eat meat, alas we have a choice to do with our bodies as we please. Imagine if some rancher decided that in his moral views everyone had to eat meat because in his views not giving meat to children would be hurting them and damaging their growth. Because many meat eaters believe that meat is essential to growth and development and by depriving a child you are basically torturing them. What would you say then? I know of many people that say that not eating meat is crazy, however, I dont "warn them", as you put it.

I find it very offensive that you view serial killers in the same light as those who chose to get abortions. What a sheltered life you must lead.

[TinaBoBina]

*standing ovation* Lagamorph! :D

It's easy to forget that vegans' principles are founded on respect for other living creatures, but they often aren't willing to respect those closest to them- their fellow humans. It's so easy to judge people. It's so easy to step up on a pedestal- "I don't eat animals...I'm more ethical than you- more merciful." How about mercy for the people trying to exercise their rights? Who are fighting to survive in their own personal context? (unlike serial killers and cigarette smokers poisoning children- a bit out of context- my examples were of people making self-afflicting personal choices)

I fight for animals, but I fight for people, too.

By the way- I first became passionate about animal rights by following the example of a vegan friend. She never preached at me, scolded me, or made me feel guilty about my choices. She went out of her way to respect my beliefs as I did hers. It was her confidence in her ethics and her integrity that caught my attention- not being made to feel "wrong" by someone who was "right". As I've said before, right and wrong are artificial constructs. Feel free to talk about serial killers again- it doesn't change the fact that society is built on subjective opinions.

[Seaside]

But.... we are all a collection of cells, aren't we?

[Geoff]

But.... we are all a collection of cells, aren't we?

So was Alcatraz! :)

[Seaside]

So was Alcatraz! :)
:p Thppppppppppppp!!!!

It still is. Just drove along the Embarcadero a few weeks ago and glanced over at it.:)

[Nadine]

Gotta agree with you Lagamorph the mothers welfare should come first.
I personally don't like being around smokers, since I quit :p . I can imagine warning smokers that they were aborting childrens lives would not get peoples backs up in the slightest!
I hope this thread isn't going down isn't going down the "what about the poor innocent child" vein, I'll save further comments on that for the 'stupid carnivore' or 'not getting it' thread :mad:
Ah well, my own fault for getting suckered into posting about abortion :rolleyes:

[Lagamorph]

But.... we are all a collection of cells, aren't we?
Veganism originated from the idea that any sentient being has rights. In the sovereignty of nature these are ignored, but we're human, presumably- we've moved on and we respect life.
~Donald Watson

....key word here is Sentient, as per your signature, no?

[Lily]

So, when does sentience begin?

[John]

The way I see it, it is irrelevant if the fetus is sentient. If the fetus is inside a woman's body it is her flesh. It would be different if the woman did not own her own body; if she were a slave, or if her husband owned her, or if she lived in a communal society, or a totalitarian society. In our society women own their own bodies, but some people want to change that.

Abortion is a decision that should be between a woman and her doctor. If an individual believes that abortion is wrong, that individul should not be forced to have an abortion, but that individual should not force his or her will on others. If a religion states that abortion is wrong, it is the responsibility of only the followers of that religion to follow its dogma. (in actuality, the Bible, for instance, seems to condone abortion--but try telling that to certain people)

My heart goes out to all the women who have had abortions and all the women going through the ordeal. I cannot judge anyone on such a personal and complex issue.

Soon abortion will be illegal many states of the USA. In reality, due to terrorism and certain legal ploys, it is already unavailable is many parts. And soon it may be illegal in every state. Many people would prefer that poor women died during unsafe illegal abortions while women with enough money obtained safe abortions.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind but, in my opinion, to equate abortion with murder displays an extreme lack of understanding.

[TinaBoBina]

I think that's a good question, Lily, especially when it comes to unborn children. However, before we go down that road, we have to ask if we're willing to trample the rights of unquestionably fully sentient beings (pregnant women!) in order to protect something (that cell cluster) that is pre-sentient and that lacks even the minimal self-awareness that comes along later in the pregnancy.

[Lagamorph]

Well lets just say that cells, (aka embryo) that still feed off a body, like a parasite, I would not consider sentient.

Embryo - (Greek word meaning – to swell) term given to a human conceptus from conception until 8 weeks gestation.

I do believe that there is a law in Britain (amongst other nations) that states that you can have an abortion till your are 24 weeks (And 87% of abortions take place before 12 weeks, that is under 3 months, first trimester)

Here is some more information about the embryo and foetus devekopment:
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/index.html

[Lagamorph]

Soon abortion will be illegal many states of the USA. In reality, due to terrorism and certain legal ploys, it is already unavailable is many parts. And soon it may be illegal in every state. Many people would prefer that poor women died during unsafe illegal abortions while women with enough money obtained safe abortions. I don't expect to change anyone's mind but, in my opinion, to equate abortion with murder displays an extreme lack of understanding.

That is soooo scarry. How many unwanted children will be suffering then? And the mother? Ok, thats it, you guys are all welcome in Canada :D

Canada: vegan friendly in many places

[Seaside]

....key word here is Sentient, as per your signature, no?
I was pretty much done with this subject, as my intention in participating in threads is not to persuade others that they are wrong, but merely to express my thoughts and clarify them when necessary.

I do not limit my life's philosophy to a signature in a forum profile. They key word may be sentient to you. My key word is life. If it is alive, I will not kill it on purpose. That is what veganism is to me. Having compassion for all life, not just the sentient variety. If you think its okay to kill beings which are not, by your limited ability to assess, "sentient", more power to you. I think it is wrong to kill when killing is avoidable, regardless of levels of apparent sentience, which is why I am no more likely to kill earthworms and sea anemones than I am to kill dogs and unborn babies.

I also object to the use of omni logic in justifying abortion:

The mother is more important than the unborn baby = The human is more important than the "food" animal

The "sentient" mother is more important than the collection of cells she is carrying in her body = the person with an IQ over 100 is of greater value than the person whose IQ is under 70

I don't want this baby I am pregnant with, so I will argue that it isn't really human anyway, so I can kill it without being considered wrong = I want to eat dead animals, so I will argue that they aren't human, so I can kill them without being considered wrong

I know that proponents of abortion like to justify its validity as population control, which is supposed to be an issue dear to the vegan heart. It falls flat, though, when the same proponents of abortion are in favor of donating organs to people instead of letting them die on the waiting list and helping to reduce the population. If a fetus cannot survive outside of its mother's body, thus making it vegan to kill it before it is born, why is it not vegan to allow people with defective organs, who cannot survive with what they were born with, to die too?

If you want an abortion, go ahead and get one! I wouldn't try to stop you even if I thought I could! But don't come to a vegan forum and try to get it accepted as a viable part of the vegan ethic, and provoke vegans who are against it, and try to make us look like hypocrites. Some of us get enough of that from omnis.

[Seaside]

I don't expect to change anyone's mind but, in my opinion, to equate abortion with murder displays an extreme lack of understanding.
Who said anything about murder?

[eve]

well said, seaside.

[Seaside]

Thanks eve! :o

[Lily]

I'm completely with you on this, Seaside. My thoughts exactly.

[grail]

"If you want an abortion, go ahead and get one! I wouldn't try to stop you even if I thought I could! But don't come to a vegan forum and try to get it accepted as a viable part of the vegan ethic, and provoke vegans who are against it, and try to make us look like hypocrites. Some of us get enough of that from omnis."

WELL SAID!

[greenworlds]

I really dont know how you can compare a serial killer with abortion.

I wasn't comparing serial killers to abortion I was making a point that 'all decisions should not be respected' I don't see why I should respect a smokers decision to puff smoke around me in any public place, whether on the street or elsewhere. Regarding abortion I believe the whole of humankind is affected for the worse by it. If humankind are better off for it,what a really sad bunch of cells we are.


And what is this mighier than thou attitude? You seem to have found this magical moral code.

What is wrong in striving for the high moral ground? wouldn't we or wouldn't we be better off if as many living creatures tried not to harm their own species and other species as much as possible?

[ Lagamorph=QUOTE] The pro lifers always seem to side with a bunch cells, never the welfare of the woman.

I'm not sure why you refer to the earlier stages of a human being 'a bunch of cells' and not apply the same to every other living creature?:confused:


[Lagomorph=QUOTE] Warning the aborter that they are ending someones life?

Obviously you are defending abortion partly because you have been closely effected by it. I think if someone has been brainwashed that it is not a human being starting out on a journey through life, then they should be reminded, as, at least, they might give some serious thought to what they are ending, and not just shrug the little fellow off as 'Cells'.

[Lagomorph=QUOTE] What gives you the right to go up to someone and lecture them about something as personal as that?

As a human being, It gives me the right to try and protect my own species and other species.




[Lagamorph] Is it your body?

Is it the aborter's body? ( I'm not talking about a real case of the mother dying through giving birth) which ought to be rare nowdays because of the medical help that can be given.

Are they harming you in any way by going through it?

Yes I think so..I don't know how different humankind would be today if those aborted people had been allowed to live?

[Lagomorph=QUOTE]You are basically standing up for a parasite (defn. something that feeds off another without a symbiotic benefit) rather than the welfare of a living human being.[/QUOTE]

How can you refer to the earlier life of a human-being as a parasite? by your reasoning, it could be argued that all humans are parasites living of the earth. Obviously the mother's welfare and everyones welfare needs to be looked at. Preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place is important. If someone happened to be pregnant and didn't want the child, if she was reassured that the baby would be cared for by decent human beings and she would never have to see the child ever etc and If the girl/lady was scared of the giving birth part itself, maybe she could be convinced that it was just a bunch of cells she was giving birth to ( as it seems some ppl have been convinced that the babies early development are just cells), you can take the moral side out of everything and use scientific terms, but it just can't be right when ending the life of what could be a valued human-being in the living world.



[Lagomorph=QUOTE] Now tell me, who has a difficulty with morals? We are not talking about torturing another fully sentient human being, rather getting rid of a bunch of cells. What is with the focus on the potential of the cells, rather than looking at them as they are. Just cells. Are you really going to force someone to go through a pregnancy? There are already way too many unwanted children in this world. Why bring more in?

You keep using a scientific term for the early stages of human life and a more moral term for the later parts of human life..I don't think that is right as it might prejudice peoples opinions for abortion.

There are people who would be happy to give a good home to unwanted children. Yes why would someone get pregnant and put themselves through the stress of abortion? I think it would be less stressfull to haver the child and foster.


[Lapamorph=QUOTE]I assumed (how silly of me) that all vegans would be supportive of choice. Like we have a choice NOT to eat meat, alas we have a choice to do with our bodies as we please. Imagine if some rancher decided that in his moral views everyone had to eat meat because in his views not giving meat to children would be hurting them and damaging their growth. Because many meat eaters believe that meat is essential to growth and development and by depriving a child you are basically torturing them. What would you say then? I know of many people that say that not eating meat is crazy, however, I dont "warn them", as you put it.

I find it very offensive that you view serial killers in the same light as those who chose to get abortions. What a sheltered life you must lead.[/QUOTE]

I am not totally against choice as humans have sunk so low as to be aborting their own childen, eating other sentient beings etc etc, that choosing between two evils seems to be becoming the norm.

Why don't you warn people about eating meat, we should speak out when we can about meat eating, not hide away from confronting that utter depraved act of savagary!

as I said earlier I wasn't putting abortion and serial killing in the same light, I was refering to the rights of 'choice' and decision making in general.

Do you live a fun forfilling life promoting abortion?

Our goals in life should be to reach the highest moral stance we can.
In an ideal world abortion wouldn't even be considered, in a ideal world what would like to see?

[Lagamorph]

I also object to the use of omni logic in justifying abortion:
The mother is more important than the unborn baby = The human is more important than the "food" animal

The "sentient" mother is more important than the collection of cells she is carrying in her body = the person with an IQ over 100 is of greater value than the person whose IQ is under 70

I don't want this baby I am pregnant with, so I will argue that it isn't really human anyway, so I can kill it without being considered wrong = I want to eat dead animals, so I will argue that they aren't human, so I can kill them without being considered wrong [/quote]

Its not about being human, rather rights of an embryo over a person. An embryo in my opinion is different than an animal. Again, would you defend a virus this way? A parasite? They are 'life' too aren't they? And an animal is not living inside you feeding off you for 9 months. Two seperate things to me.

But I appologize, it seems that I have gone too far and stated my opinions. Woe is me, how dare I, in a forum, nooooooo.


I know that proponents of abortion like to justify its validity as population control, which is supposed to be an issue dear to the vegan heart. It falls flat, though, when the same proponents of abortion are in favor of donating organs to people instead of letting them die on the waiting list and helping to reduce the population. If a fetus cannot survive outside of its mother's body, thus making it vegan to kill it before it is born, why is it not vegan to allow people with defective organs, who cannot survive with what they were born with, to die too?

If you want an abortion, go ahead and get one! I wouldn't try to stop you even if I thought I could! But don't come to a vegan forum and try to get it accepted as a viable part of the vegan ethic, and provoke vegans who are against it, and try to make us look like hypocrites. Some of us get enough of that from omnis.

If you don't want a discussion on the matter, why did you post on this forum. Do you see yourself as a better person than those you call 'omnis'. Are you not judging them? Are you not making yourself out to be better then they are because you feel you believe in something that is more moral?

And I am not trying to get abortion "... accepted as viable part of the vegan ethic" for I really do not care what you think about my views. I assumed, again silly me, that this would be a place where we could discuss our opinions and share in our experiences. I do believe, correct me if I am wrong here, that we were having a debate. All I was trying to do was find out why vegans believe this, for I have never met (talked to) a vegan that was not pro choice.

Thank goodness there is no almighty Vegan book out there that would judge me and send me to some meat eating hell if I dont follow the specific rules based on personal opinion that some vegans hold.

I never said that I liked the idea of abortion, and I don't think I can go thought one myself. However, the choice is there because in certain situations, it is the last resort.