Abortion

[Seaside]

I'm completely with you on this, Seaside. My thoughts exactly.
WELL SAID!
Thanks you two! :o

[terrace max]

It is not unvegan to support a woman's right to choose.

If you believe that your compassion for other people should extend to other animals then you might be able to forgive the action of a woman who finds the prospect of her pregnancy unbearable. Not least because you don't despise your own human fallability either.

If you have replaced your compassion for human beings with your compassion for other life-forms then this woman is a killer first and foremost and the suffering which may have brought her into her situation, or may arise from it, will appear negligible or non-existent.

The second position, as an expression of psychosis, should never be confused with the reality of veganism in my opinion.

[Seaside]

I have the highest level of compassion for the individuals suffering from the greatest degree of victimization, regardless of species or level of development. This could very well make me look psychotic to the general public, since the majority of people want to side with those in power, to avoid being victimized themselves. It is so much better to be the oppressor than the oppressee.

"..we all know that in all matters of mere opinion that [every] man is insane--just as insane as we are...we know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity: it is where his opinion differs from ours...." ~Mark Twain~

[Lily]

It is not unvegan to support a woman's right to choose.


I would add to that..."to deliberately kill her unborn child".

To me, being vegan is all about supporting the interests of those whom society deems do not have the right to be free from exploitation, pain, suffering and forced death. In particular, those without a voice.

[DianeVegan]

As with any discussion involving prochoice/abortion this thread has become rather heated at times. I respect that everyone has their own opinions and beliefs on this matter and am always interested in hearing other views. We have a number of very articulate and intelligent members here.:)

However, I don't think any of us has the final say on whether or not abortion is vegan. Veganism, like any other philosophy, has a basic set of beliefs. Not everyone will interpret them the same way. This is not a religion with higher members of the "church" who can decipher the beliefs for the rest of us (although there seems to be a few willing to step into those shoes ;) ).

[Barley]

Well I'm glad someone agrees with me I was beginning to think I was on mi lonesome on this one cos all my friends are really maternal aswell!!!! My doctor just dismissed my asking for sterilization because I am too young and don't have any kids so I didn't get any info- But if there is one thing i'm good at it's pestering people LOL

I agree with you too - that makes three of us!! At least! :)

[Seaside]

Veganism, like any other philosophy, has a basic set of beliefs. Not everyone will interpret them the same way. This is not a religion with higher members of the "church" who can decipher the beliefs for the rest of us (although there seems to be a few willing to step into those shoes ;) ).
But DianeVegan, that's why it is important to maintain the definition of veganism. It isn't complicated, and doesn't need deciphering, but it isn't a work of abstract art either, open to any interpretation possible. :o

The existence of outwatered veganism is actually a main motivation for running this site, because we think it's important, both for the vegan movement, human health and for the animals, that veganism is not being converted into representing a conditioned/limited resistance against harming or killing animals.

I would like to add that I do have compassion and respect for women who feel compelled to abort their pregnancies, when they have the strength and courage to recognize all sides of the thing they are about to do. More than one of my friends has done this, and it has been a sad, depressing, and frightening experience. And I would never tell a person that they are not vegan because they have had an abortion. In my view, yes, they have done something that is not vegan. But this doesn't have to mean that they are not vegan for doing it. We may all find ourselves in a postion of having to do something unvegan. The best approach, to me, is to recognize this, do what we must to resolve it, and move on in our veganism. Denial and rationalization are just not my best choices for dealing with serious situations. :o

[John]

Who said anything about murder?


Abortion is murder, pure and simple. I'm shocked that vegans would find it acceptable. How can we as vegans stand up for the animals that are being slaughtered but then turn around and say that we are ok with a child being killed (and don't give me that "it's just a fetus" line)?

[Seaside]

Thank you John. I missed that post. I guess if my3labs considers an unborn baby human, and that to kill a human is considered murder, except in cases of accidental death or self-defense, she is most certainly entitled to that opinion. As she has also stated in that post that she herself is a victim of violent crime, she doesn't look to me like she lacks any understanding of the situation.

[Geoff]

How can the murder of a child be any different or more acceptable than the murder of a cow or chicken or dog?
The saying that it's a woman's right because it's her body is crap! When you harm another being (human, animal, etc), it is no longer about your body.
Abortion is murder, pure and simple. I'm shocked that vegans would find it acceptable. How can we as vegans stand up for the animals that are being slaughtered but then turn around and say that we are ok with a child being killed (and don't give me that "it's just a fetus" line)?

Whilst working as an ambulance driver in London, I once had a woman abort in my ambulance. After taking her to a ward I had to go back to the ambulance to collect the 'foetus' and take 'it' for the nursing staff to examine. Carrying this baby (a perfectly formed, small, human being) I was saddened by the loss of life. I don't know if it was deliberate or a natural abortion but I do know that this little person didn't want to die.
Last year I spent a couple of days trying to keep a 15 gramme wallaby joey alive, to no avail, but I just couldn't do what I was supposed to and cut it's throat with a razor blade.
The process from conception to birth is a continuum and, at some stage, the collection of cells becomes a being - who knows when - but fairly soon after conception abortion becomes a serious matter and should not be taken lightly.
There are alternatives to abortion. People are crying out for babies to adopt and go to extraordinary lengths to find babies in other countries.
I also think that using the term 'foetus' is a distancing strategy, rather like using 'beef' or 'mutton' instead of dead cow or dead sheep. It's not even an English word.

[sugarmouse]

ive aborted and i dont see it as a non vegan thing...i,m vegan for the animals....humans are totally irrelevant to me....

[Mija]

The easiest thing is to say that a small human being is a foetus, as then it sounds somehow "acceptable" to kill her/him. The same about abortion - it's nothing else than a murdery of one's own child. You don't hear her/him cry, you don't see her/his facial expression or her/his resistance to all those disguisting instruments, so it's so easy to kill.

If you cannot take the responsibility for a possibility of a small human being, do not fuck. As simple as that.

*

And actually 1/3 (if not more) of men don't even know they could have been fathers, although they would have loved to have that child.

[Roxy]

If you cannot take the responsibility for a possibility of a small human being, do not fuck. As simple as that.



I am sure that the women who have become pregnant as a result of a rape, and who have chosen to abort, would take offence to that blanket statement.

[Geoff]

humans are totally irrelevant to me....

What a ridiculous thing to say!

'The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them, that's the essence of inhumanity.' - Shaw

[Mija]

There is a very small percentage of pregnancies because of rapes, so all abortions cannot be justified just because of that. And if rapes happen in families or being drunk, it's another problem.

[Korn]

humans are totally irrelevant to me....

Are you sure you really mean this? And what do you actually mean by 'irrelevant'?

[DianeVegan]

But DianeVegan, that's why it is important to maintain the definition of veganism. It isn't complicated, and doesn't need deciphering, but it isn't a work of abstract art either, open to any interpretation possible. :o



I would like to add that I do have compassion and respect for women who feel compelled to abort their pregnancies, when they have the strength and courage to recognize all sides of the thing they are about to do. More than one of my friends has done this, and it has been a sad, depressing, and frightening experience. And I would never tell a person that they are not vegan because they have had an abortion. In my view, yes, they have done something that is not vegan. But this doesn't have to mean that they are not vegan for doing it. We may all find ourselves in a postion of having to do something unvegan. The best approach, to me, is to recognize this, do what we must to resolve it, and move on in our veganism. Denial and rationalization are just not my best choices for dealing with serious situations. :o
Well put Seaside. I agree that veganism isn't complicated or abstract and doesn't need deciphering by anyone. And I agree that you can do things that are unvegan and still be a vegan, just as you can do things that are unCatholic, unDemocratic, unhuman and still be a member of those groups.

Abortion has always been a complicated, private matter for individuals to deal with in their own way. If it wasn't legal in the countries we reside in then I doubt we would be having this discussion at all (then it would be against forum rules maybe?) Anyway, I think I'll leave this discussion with the realization that we might all just agree to disagree once again.:)

[terrace max]

If you cannot take the responsibility for a possibility of a small human being, do not fuck. As simple as that.

Truly, the meaning of non-violence is simple. It's applying principles to the messy complexity of reality which is the challenge...a challenge that being 'anti-abortion' singularly fails to rise to...I'm anti- cold Monday mornings - so what?

Any fundamentalism is attractively straightforward because it shuns reality and that's why it cannot be taken seriously.

[Mija]

What do cold Mondays have to do with abortions?? This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

[Lily]

And I agree that you can do things that are unvegan and still be a vegan

:confused:

I did something very un-vegan. I was vegan for five months before, then went back to consuming dairy products and eggs. Was I still a vegan then?

Seaside, if I'd asked you "Am I still a vegan?", would you have answered "Yes"?

[terrace max]

What do cold Mondays have to do with abortions??

It's more: what do cold Monday mornings and your fellow human beings' sexual habits have in common? You may not like them but they are, and always will be, both utterly beyond your control. (Thankfully).

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

What a coincidence. I felt the same about your post...

[Mija]

Imagine your mother would have killed you... You wouldn't have written any posts then...

[sugarmouse]

Are you sure you really mean this? And what do you actually mean by 'irrelevant'?


maybe ridiculous to you geoff..but then its JMHO:)

korn, i am vegan for animals..i love them


i just dont feel any love towad most humans
emotive adverts about neglected children or similar things,third world suffering, does not stir anythign in me.

when i hear of someone neglecting an animal,. i get upset and angry and emotional
abortion,human rights etc...just arent things i get concerned about at all.

[terrace max]

Imagine your mother would have killed you...

While I was still her? Her choice.

You wouldn't have written any posts then...

Every cloud has a silver lining...

[Barley]

maybe ridiculous to you geoff..but then its JMHO:)

korn, i am vegan for animals..i love them


i just dont feel any love towad most humans
emotive adverts about neglected children or similar things,third world suffering, does not stir anythign in me.

when i hear of someone neglecting an animal,. i get upset and angry and emotional
abortion,human rights etc...just arent things i get concerned about at all.

Sugarmouse - I feel exactly the same - it doesn't mean that I go around wishing bad things on humans - just, as you said, it doesn't touch me - only animal suffering does. It is not something I choose, it just IS and I am not ashamed of it, or to say it.