Abortion

[Seaside]

We may all find ourselves in a postion of having to do something unvegan.
Hi Lily, that is what I said previously. I was thinking of extreme circumstances we may find ourselves in, which are unavoidable, such as folks who need life saving medication that has been tested on animals, or people who need to kill in self defense, or a situation like this:
I was sent for a dating scan. At the scan the scanner shook his head and went for a second opinion. After someone else had a look at the scan we were shown into a room where my life was destroyed. The consultant told us our baby had anncaphally (spina bifida of the skull) the baby's brain had re-absorbed. This meant one of three things:
I would have a miscarriage,
The baby would be still-born,
OR
In very rare cases the baby would be born alive and die hours after the birth.

So I booked in for an abortion I was only ten weeks so it could be done under anesthetic. On the morning we were shown into a hospital room and met the chaplin who suggested we chose a name for our baby and we decided on Jamie as we had no idea wether the baby was a boy or a girl. We had a few minuets alone and a song came on the radio which we decided would be Jamie's song. Soon after I was taken down to theatre and I woke up with mild cramp like period pain. I was disgusted that loosing my baby was so physically painless. I went home that night.
I would never tell princessemma that she isn't vegan because of this.

Actually, I don't feel comfortable telling people they aren't vegan, so, even though I don't think it would be vegan for you to eat dairy and eggs, I wouldn't want to just come out and point blank say "no, YOU are not vegan" as I fear it would turn you away completely from veganism, because you might think you were a failure, and there was no point in trying again. We all know that voluntarily eating dairy or eggs isn't vegan, so I would give you the benefit of the doubt in realizing that you have done something that isn't vegan, and can answer that question for yourself. :)

I actually believe that all people are vegan deep down, but under varying degrees of brainwashing that makes it difficult to impossible to realize this truth, and live accordingly. We are the lucky ones who wake up to the truth about ourselves, and do our best to live up to vegan ethics.

I know, weird, huh?

[terrace max]

If they're honest, I think a fair number of vegans feel the same as Sugarmouse and Barley. Hardly surprising given the treatment handed out by most of the human race to fellow animals.

I think there are certain problems with this position, though. All animals, all of nature, is contingent upon human activity. Taking human beings out of the ethical equation is, therefore, futile. In other words, if we are serious about animal rights we'd better prioritise the enlightenment of our fellow human beings.

This enlightenment is merely postponed by some of the clumsy statements about fellow human beings that appear in vegan dialogue, not least on this forum. A recent thread about punishing a woman who was cruel to some kittens exemplifies these problems. Non-violence isn't a kind of moral pick 'n' mix.

Animals are easy to love. I think the sentimentality attached to the aborted foetus over the plight of the mother is a similarly facile basis for an opinion.

If you can't forgive flawed human beings don't shout about it. One day your conditions may change and you may do stupid stuff too.

[Seaside]

Animals are easy to love. I think the sentimentality attached to the aborted foetus over the plight of the mother is a similarly facile basis for an opinion.

My deep reverence for life, and abhorrence of killing, are not dependent upon sentimental attachments to some of the forms life animates. There are many vegans who dislike animals and want nothing to do with them, yet still acknowledge their right to exist unmolested by humans. I am not overly fond of children myself, but my relative ability to form an emotional attachment to someone else's fetus has very little to do with whether I think it is wrong to kill.

[puffin]

I find it hard to imagine that people cant be affected by seeing children suffering in third world countrys :confused: I hate to see anyone and anything suffering. If i see something on tv about an animal that was left in a terrible state and neglected etc it breaks my heart and the same goes for some poor kid that has been abused or neglected.

[Seaside]

I think most people are, puffin, especially when it comes to children suffering. I was just disagreeing with the idea that a person's perception of suffering is rendered less viable if they are emotionally attached to the victim. :)

[terrace max]

My deep reverence for life, and abhorrence of killing, are not dependent upon sentimental attachments to some of the forms life animates. There are many vegans who dislike animals and want nothing to do with them, yet still acknowledge their right to exist unmolested by humans. I am not overly fond of children myself, but my relative ability to form an emotional attachment to someone else's fetus has very little to do with whether I think it is wrong to kill.


I'd merely suggest a 'deep reverence for life' should also enable a flawed human being to kill part of herself in order to survive mentally of physically in a deeply flawed world.

I wish many opponents of abortion (not you) would focus their considerable angst on mitigating the conditions which lead to unwanted pregnancies rather than betraying their infantile morality by victimising one of the victims (the mother). When we have re-created the garden of Eden maybe we can sit down and agree that abortion is plain wrong.

[Seaside]

Do you have any ideas on mitigating the conditions that lead to unwanted pregnancies, terrace max? I have seen a few of the more simplistic suggestions, that admittedly may not be practical for everyone. I for one wouldn't mind seeing the discussion veer in a slightly different direction. :)

[puffin]

I think most people are, puffin, especially when it comes to children suffering. I was just disagreeing with the idea that a person's perception of suffering is rendered less viable if they are emotionally attached to the victim. :)
Yes that is very true. I must admit though that i dont have any pets and dont want any but when i read a story about some poor animal that was badly treated it upets me as much as it does when i hear about a child. I have no real connection with animals but i would never want them to suffer so why do people find it so hard to feel compassion for humans?
seaside i agree with your previous post :)

[Seaside]

:) ^

[sugarmouse]

If they're honest, I think a fair number of vegans feel the same as Sugarmouse and Barley. Hardly surprising given the treatment handed out by most of the human race to fellow animals.

I think there are certain problems with this position, though. All animals, all of nature, is contingent upon human activity. Taking human beings out of the ethical equation is, therefore, futile. In other words, if we are serious about animal rights we'd better prioritise the enlightenment of our fellow human beings.

This enlightenment is merely postponed by some of the clumsy statements about fellow human beings that appear in vegan dialogue, not least on this forum. A recent thread about punishing a woman who was cruel to some kittens exemplifies these problems. Non-violence isn't a kind of moral pick 'n' mix.

Animals are easy to love. I think the sentimentality attached to the aborted foetus over the plight of the mother is a similarly facile basis for an opinion.

If you can't forgive flawed human beings don't shout about it. One day your conditions may change and you may do stupid stuff too.



i hear you terrance max, i know you rre right!but it stil does not change theway i feel...abortion, doesnt touch me.
Puffin re., child suffering, of course i dont like it.but i dont get upset about it.it just allows my case to rest howbizarre and mentally disfigured people are.

[terrace max]

Do you have any ideas on mitigating the conditions that lead to unwanted pregnancies, terrace max?

It's tempting to reach for an easy suggestion like (much) better sex education in schools.

But I suspect that unwanted pregnancy is just another example of can-carrying by women in a patriarchal society. My oldest son only became a wannabe patriarch when he went to school at 4 years old, so tackling institutional patriarchy might be a good start! :o

[puffin]

i hear you terrance max, i know you rre right!but it stil does not change theway i feel...abortion, doesnt touch me.
Puffin re., child suffering, of course i dont like it.but i dont get upset about it.it just allows my case to rest howbizarre and mentally disfigured people are.
What if the parents die and the children are left to look after thenselves? As you know this is a huge problem in thrid world countries. Children need looking after and need to be loved. Children arnt menally disfigured nor are those who try there best to even survive.

[sugarmouse]

3rd world IMO they should t have the children when they cant look after themselves.its an act of selfishness, and sheer lunacy.and yes contraception against their culture/religion.....still nonsensical.

ITA the children arent to blame.but it isnt somethign that gets my blood boiling,people cause their own suffering . unlike like the way our culture treats its animals..

[Lagamorph]

Imagine your mother would have killed you... You wouldn't have written any posts then...

Imagine if Hitlers mother would have aborted him...how about every other evil figure in history. You are treading on a slippery slope here.
Your argument can go either way.

[Lagamorph]

Basically the argument boils down to whether you believe Veganism is a diet based on ethics, or an ethics based on a way of life.

[Lagamorph]

Do you live a fun forfilling life promoting abortion?

Our goals in life should be to reach the highest moral stance we can.
In an ideal world abortion wouldn't even be considered, in a ideal world what would like to see?

(Insert sarcasm here) Yes, obviously I love the idea of spreading the last possible option for a woman when it comes to birth control. Hey, lets all make women go through a horrific life scarring exprience and have her insides turned out, just for shits and giggles. How could you tell?

I am merely stating that there are a lot more factors to look at. Sorry for taking a scientific view, shall I take a moral one? How about that in my opinion (which highly influence morals) I believe it is unethical to bring an unwanted child into this world. No one has discussed that. How will others around that child suffer as a result? And dont give me that line about all children are a blessing, because when it comes to feeding five rather than six children, you would be singing a different tune.

Since morals are influenced by opinions and other variables, there is no universal moral. i.e. killing? We all kill then. Plants, animals (whether they be microscopic or mammals). So techically, none of us are vegan then.

You are right, in an ideal world, abortion would not even be considered, however, we will NEVER live in an ideal world. There is no such thing. We are flawed beings, we would merely sabotage ourselves.
Besides, and ideal world to me would be different to you. In the details of course. I am sure we all would agree on no suffering, death, disease, war, famine, etc....however its the details that will get us in trouble. Some would say that in an ideal world there would be no gay people, no womens rights, no people of colour...etc. Those who believe these things also believe that they are coming from the highest moral stance. No?

Basically, its all a matter of perspective.

And you are right, I have been scorned by anit abortionists, but because they have tried to force their opinions on others, rather than letting people choose for themselves. A real anti-abortionist would try to promote sex ed, and other forms of birth control, and not that abortion is murder. Way to guilt people who are already suffering emotionally. I do not respect that.

[Seaside]

IF YOU REFER TO THE EARLY LIFE OF A HUMAN BEING,IN THE MOTHERS WOMB, AS A 'PARASITE' ..THEN YOUR ACCEPT IT HAS SOME KIND OF WILL? IT COULD BE SAID THAT HUMANS IN GENERAL ARE PARASITES IN THIS WORLD.

REMEMBER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ANOTHER PERSONS LIFE..NOT THE MOTHERS LIFE. THE BABY IS NOT THE MOTHER, THE MOTHER IS NOT THE BABY..IT IS NOT THE MOTHERS BODY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. I HAVE EVERY SYMPATHY WITH A MOTHER WHO IS PREGNANT..THEY NEED ALL THE HELP THEY CAN GET.
I agree, greenworlds, from egg to embryo, fetus to newborn baby, they are not parasites. "Nature" wants everything to reproduce itself, and a female body of any species is designed to enable the baby to grow until it is ready to be born.

Studies have shown that in mice, nine days after the egg is fertilized, the embryo must develop an enzyme to protect itself from attack by the mother's immune system. This would indicate that the embryo is not the mother's flesh, or simply another part of her body, or her immune system wouldn't try to attack it as foreign material, unless of course she had an autoimmune disease.

Enzyme Protects Fetus From Rejection

NEW YORK, Aug 20 (Reuters) -- Researchers may have figured out how the fetus avoids being rejected by the mother's immune system, despite carrying foreign proteins that could trigger a maternal immune response. An enzyme produced by the fetus appears to help suppress their mother's immune response, according to US researchers. The report is published in the August 21st issue of the journal Science.

The body's immune system is geared to attack any object containing foreign DNA. Considering that a fetus' genes come from both its father and mother, scientists have long wondered why the mother's immune system does not reject it.

[Seaside]

It's tempting to reach for an easy suggestion like (much) better sex education in schools.

But I suspect that unwanted pregnancy is just another example of can-carrying by women in a patriarchal society. My oldest son only became a wannabe patriarch when he went to school at 4 years old, so tackling institutional patriarchy might be a good start! :o
Maybe sex education at an earlier age? I don't have kids, so I don't know what it is like in schools anymore.

My youngest brother went patriarchal at three, before he ever got near school. We couldn't figure out where it was coming from, as my dad wasn't like that at all. Maybe TV? Maybe its genetic? He isn't like that anymore, though, thank goodness. :p

We don't really have any statistics here that show the reasons why the majority of abortions are sought. If we knew that we could address the conditions leading up to unwanted pregnancies. There is a trend amongst pharmacies in certain states here in the USA to refuse to fill birth control prescriptions for women, and for the morning after pill, which is outrageous. Birth control should be readily available to all people of reproductive age, free of charge, and they could do with more options for the males as well as the females. It isn't just the responsibility of the female to make sure she doesn't get pregnant. I guess that goes right back to your patriarchal argument! :)

[Geoff]

As with virtually all the world's problems, I think that (good) education IS the answer.
There are some tables giving reasons stated for having abortions at:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

[Mija]

[quote=terrace max]It's more: what do cold Monday mornings and your fellow human beings' sexual habits have in common? You may not like them but they are, and always will be, both utterly beyond your control. (Thankfully).


But there are contraceptive/birth control devices as well.

[greenworlds]

I actually believe that all people are vegan deep down, but under varying degrees of brainwashing that makes it difficult to impossible to realize this truth, and live accordingly. We are the lucky ones who wake up to the truth about ourselves, and do our best to live up to vegan ethics.

Yes Seaside, nicely put( I'm sure the first half of that quote could be used to great effect to spread veganism) if the basic biological evidents is taken into account what your say is true. Maybe if those on a non-vegan diet weren't so brain-washed people might start allowing more of the brain to be used? ( if only 2% or so of the brain is used). I wonder if any of the parts of the brain that deal with compassion, morals etc, are blocked because of eating animals? I'll guess ' Denial' takes up less brain use than 'Realisation'.
I wonder.


Seaside.." We are the lucky ones who wake up to the truth about ourselves, and do our best to live up to vegan ethics."

[indianvegan]

Do ever Animals go for abortion?
Why one need abortion?
Abortion is cruel/cowardy act?

Abortion of female child ( as everyone here opts for male child) is highest in India, I guess, in the world. Number of females are slowly reducing. A kind of imbalance in my country.

Just questions for thought.


Manish

[Seaside]

As with virtually all the world's problems, I think that (good) education IS the answer.
There are some tables giving reasons stated for having abortions at:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
Thanks for that link, Geoff.
As debate continue regarding this practice, advocates of unrestrained abortion often cite the "hard cases"--cases of rape, incest, life or health of the mother or baby--in defending access to abortion. It is widely acknowledged that such cases are rare; however, available data suggest that some commonly cited figures are exaggerated.

Further, the prevailing preferences of the American electorate are often cited in reference to U.S. abortion legislation. Some will claim, for example, that most Americans support legal abortion. While majority vote is an unconstitutional means of limiting human rights (regardless of what position on abortion one thinks is the one consistent with human rights), the claim itself is a half-truth. Most Americans would oppose banning abortions for hard cases, but at the same time most Americans would support limits on elective abortions, e.g. abortions for convenience or for sex selection.
It is an eye opener to me that 98% of the abortions in the USA are elective, and not obtained for the above life or health threatening reasons. I find it disturbing that one of the most commonly cited reasons for having an abortion is that the woman is not ready for how the baby will change her life. And I am completely shocked that any country would allow a person to have an abortion because the baby is the wrong sex! How ironic for feminists who have fought for a woman's right to legal abortion! :confused: :confused: :confused:

I find myself in the category of people who would not oppose abortion for "hard cases", but would definitely like to see changes in the policies concerning elective abortions.

[Lily]

I would put myself in that category too, Seaside.

It's no surprise at all to me that the figure is 98% and neither would it be to find a similar statistic for the UK (although I'm not aware of the UK figure).

I know or have known several women who've aborted and not one of them could have been described as being anywhere near 'hard case' :( . I know someone who's never had children but often thought she wanted to. On one occasion when she thought she might be pregnant, she actually said that if she was, she didn't know yet whether she would have the baby as "Well I don't know yet how I'd feel about it if I was pregnant". She did have an abortion in her late teens and claims to have regretted it ever since. But this was a forty year old woman speaking.

I suspect this type of attitude is due in part to her being friends with at least two other women that have had repeated abortions, again nowhere near 'hard case', simply unwanted at that particular time, even though there was a supportive family in each case.

I think that some women are simply of the attitude that in this day and age they don't have to take responsibility for their actions regarding unplanned pregnancies. Nobody is expected to have the child they didn't plan for because abortion seems to have become nothing more than an acceptable form of contraception.

[terrace max]

I'm also shocked by these statistics. I had no idea that the commodification of human relationships in industrial society had reached such a profound level...

I think that some women are simply of the attitude that in this day and age they don't have to take responsibility for their actions regarding unplanned pregnancies. Nobody is expected to have the child they didn't plan for because abortion seems to have become nothing more than an acceptable form of contraception.

Are we suggesting then, that women so degraded/selfish that they want to use abortion as birth control, should be prevented from doing so? Do you think they've got what it takes to make good mothers? C'mon...what these statistics actually suggest is that abortion should be liberalised!

Surely we've got to create conditions in which people value their own humanity over shopping, or whatever. To force incapable people to be parents is a bad joke. Using babies as a 'told-you-so' mechanism is ridiculous.