Abortion

[greenworlds]

I was very shocked to seaside. I can understand when women have an abortion because they are mentally unstable and are unable to look after themselves. The thought of having a child is very frighting when you are ill but just because it isnt the right time in someones life is a very selfish way of thinking. It wasnt the right time when i fell pregnant, i was frightened to death, didnt have a home of my own, my husband was earning hardly any money but i was healthy physically and mentally so i had no right to abort my baby.

It seems in your case that it was more of a social/financial reason why you resorted to such a drastic decision, how terrible for you:o ..maybe there is a charity or one that could be set up to give financial help for people in a similiar position as you were.

[greenworlds]

It wasnt the right time when i fell pregnant, i was frightened to death, didnt have a home of my own, my husband was earning hardly any money but i was healthy physically and mentally so i had no right to abort my baby.

I meant to say...It makes you realise that maybe people in britain are not that better off than the third world countries etc.




"]"If we accepted that mother can even kill her own child, how can we tell people not to kill eachother"? [/B][/B]Mother Teresa

[Seaside]

I think that in cases of abortions sought for "convenience", sterilization should be an option, and in repeat cases, perhaps mandatory. There are lots of women here on the forum who would like this procedure, and I think it should be made available. I know the excuse given by doctors is that the woman may regret the procedure one day, and try to sue. But no one can convince me that the miracles wrought by surgery today cannot include a reversible sterilization technique. I would guess that the folks who profit off birth control pills and prophylactics wouldn't like to see a simple, reversible surgical sterilization procedure developed, because then they wouldn't have customers for their products anymore. But if a woman wants to be surgically sterilized, she should be able to, at any age.

It would be so much easier if we laid eggs, it seems to me. :rolleyes:

[Mija]

Are we suggesting then, that women so degraded/selfish that they want to use abortion as birth control, should be prevented from doing so? Do you think they've got what it takes to make good mothers? C'mon...what these statistics actually suggest is that abortion should be liberalised!

Surely we've got to create conditions in which people value their own humanity over shopping, or whatever. To force incapable people to be parents is a bad joke. Using babies as a 'told-you-so' mechanism is ridiculous.

Incapable women should be sterilized, and this would cause less problems.
And I don't believe sterilization of all the women who wish to have that is impossible. If illegal abortions are possible, then sterilization must be possible as well... Those women just don't look for a way or simply have too little brain to think more..

---

Another possibility for those wishing to kill their babies could be giving birth and then killing her/him with their own hands. Sounds insane?? But what's the difference whether the baby is 2 months old (s/he has all the internal organs developed by this stage) or 9 months old? However, would they dare then?

---

And where are the men?? Are they also so ill/incapable/whatever that they cannot take care about their babies? But they were capable enough to have sexual intercourses? How come?
And are all men allowed to know they might be fathers?

[princessemma]

The easiest thing is to say that a small human being is a foetus, as then it sounds somehow "acceptable" to kill her/him. The same about abortion - it's nothing else than a murdery of one's own child. You don't hear her/him cry, you don't see her/his facial expression or her/his resistance to all those disguisting instruments, so it's so easy to kill.

No it's not. It is for some the hardest, most horrible decision they will ever have to face. Yes I killed my baby and yes to me it was a baby even with it's hurrendous deformity. For some people it's as easy as having a tooth taken out for others it leaves deep scars that will never heal. Every single woman will have a completely different experiance.

[princessemma]

I actually believe that all people are vegan deep down, but under varying degrees of brainwashing that makes it difficult to impossible to realize this truth, and live accordingly. We are the lucky ones who wake up to the truth about ourselves, and do our best to live up to vegan ethics.

I know, weird, huh?

I like that. In a way it feels a bit like coming out of the matrix.:D

[Seaside]

:p

[Lilac Hamster]

Greenworlds, charities to help women in crisis pregnancy already exist but unfortunately they are not as widely advertised as the abortion services. This is because they are non-profit making charities such as Life and Care and don't have the money to advertise as much as the Marie Stopes and BPAS abortionists who make lots of money from doing abortions and also charge for post-abortion counselling, so they have lots of billboard advertising up and I've even had to sit opposite these offensive ads on buses too.

Life (and possibly Care) also help post-abortion women to cope after abortion as well as helping prevent abortion but they do it without charging the women they help. Care are Christian but Life are completely non-denominational.

In the US there are also "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" all over the place, I used the US spelling on purpose because that is what they call them.

In the UK, Cardinal Winning of the Roman Catholic Church also set up a fund to help women in dire financial straits in pregnancy.

The problem is many people in the most need do not know where to go for help.

Lesley

[sugarmouse]

XXXXX XXXXXX and XXXX abortionists who make lots of money from doing abortions and also charge for post-abortion counselling,



it was XXXXX XXXXXX that butchered me and left me £600 lighter for the privaledge!

[princessemma]

Marie Stopes and BPAS abortionists who make lots of money from doing abortions and also charge for post-abortion counselling,



it was Marie Stopes that butchered me and left me £600 lighter for the privaledge!

I really feel for you sugarmouse. It sounds like you have suffered really badly and I can't believe they charge extra for counselling.

[sugarmouse]

I really feel for you sugarmouse. It sounds like you have suffered really badly and I can't believe they charge extra for counselling.

thankyou princessemma !
i am not expecting sympathy:), i know and admire the compassion for life a lot of VF members have.
:)
i didnt take the counselling, the only such i needed was to get over the trauma and fright of the physical pain the drug caused!
im not sure how much they charged.it was £50 for the consultation, £500 for the drugs and £50 for an aftercare appointmnet, or very similar i dont remembe to the penny,but around that.
yep, they make good profits!

[greenworlds]

Greenworlds, charities to help women in crisis pregnancy already exist but unfortunately they are not as widely advertised as the abortion services. This is because they are non-profit making charities such as Life and Care and don't have the money to advertise as much as the Marie Stopes and BPAS abortionists who make lots of money from doing abortions and also charge for post-abortion counselling, so they have lots of billboard advertising up and I've even had to sit opposite these offensive ads on buses too.

Life (and possibly Care) also help post-abortion women to cope after abortion as well as helping prevent abortion but they do it without charging the women they help. Care are Christian but Life are completely non-denominational.

In the US there are also "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" all over the place, I used the US spelling on purpose because that is what they call them.

In the UK, Cardinal Winning of the Roman Catholic Church also set up a fund to help women in dire financial straits in pregnancy.

The problem is many people in the most need do not know where to go for help.

Lesley

Yes, sounds like it would be a good idea if the information on charities that offer help to people before, during and after pregnancy were given freely by abortion centres to those that reach the desperate option of abortion, so they realise their is help out there for them.:o

[greenworlds]

Marie Stopes and BPAS abortionists who make lots of money from doing abortions and also charge for post-abortion counselling,



it was Marie Stopes that butchered me and left me £600 lighter for the privaledge!

Do you have regrets/guilt etc? I'm not sure what the statics are on those that regret it and thoses that put it out of their mind?



Killing an animal lets the demons out, eating one lets them in.

[princessemma]

thankyou princessemma !
i am not expecting sympathy:), i know and admire the compassion for life a lot of VF members have.
:)

Of course they have compassion and that should extend to you to. You are life too and have suffered. In many ways I was perhaps luckier than you, for one thing I did not have to pay for my abortion but most of all I had the support and love of my husband and for that I am so thankful. In the same circumstances I would do exactly the same thing again as I see no alternative. It makes me angry that so much profit can be made from people's trauma.

[Lilac Hamster]

Please would some of you consider signing up to my pledge to work towrds making a difference for pregnant women in crisis? You don't have to be pro-life to support this, just willing to support someone under pressure to abort but in need of positive support to help her choose life, I'm sure many pro-choicers might support this too,

http://www.pledgebank.com/pregbefriending

Lesley

[geysir111]

I'm a prolifer.

I think the foetus, from its conception (the union of the spermatozoid and the the ovule), is a human beeing and as such a beeing of our own specie has to be protected (I would think the same about all mammals and probably other vertebrates). I am for stem cell research but in the case where it's taken from the cordon between the mother and the baby.

As a human beeing from its conception, the baby should be protected and mankind has no right to give him/her death, we aren't gods or something like that (I'm agnostic but humans are just humans not gods or masters of earth life). So we should only use abortion to save the life of the mother or to save her from a big health problem, including mental health problems.

Some people would argue that a baby born if unwanted would be unhappy but that's just wrong. Pro-choicers forgot the human ability of resiliance (I'm not sure of the good translation, it's a psychology term). That is the ability to can cope with traumatism or get back to normal mental health after having social pression or trauma... and that's true by many examples... some children risen in a good and loving family finish badly and moraly or mentally insane, and some children risen in a bad education without love become adult in a very sane mental state... if u understand what I mean...

I don't like especially churches (christians, muslims, jewish, etc...) but I've found a good help from them in my fight against the murder of unborn babies... we don't have the same ideas, we don't share the same objective and but our aim to stop abortion is the same and because we have no godless prolifers here in belgium, I intend to work with the christian church, even if I'm not christian...

For the abolition of the murder of unborn babies and genetic inhumane manipulation!

All the best,

Geysir

[Pilaf]

No issue is ever truely black and white. All some people seem to see is "murdering babies". What about the women who are raped every year and forced to carry a child they never wanted? Do you think it's at all ethical to force them to carry and deliver a child into this world under such conditions? The fetus isn't the only living thing in question here. What about the feelings and mental state of the woman? I would imagine rape would be traumatizing enough without having to give birth to the rapist's baby.

So before you take such a hard stance to the right or the left of this issue or get too proud of your values just because haughty, self righteous people happen to share them, please think it through to its completion. If you take a hard liberal stance, or a hard conservative stance, you won't see the full picture.

I'm a hesitant moderate here.. a realist.

I'm against the notion that abortions should have to be performed. I think that our system is clearly flawed in its teachings of sex ed...something has gone wrong. The numbers of teen pregnancies especially are simply not dropping fast enough. Why? I get the feeling that unfortunately, partison right wing extremists have taken control of sex education in my country and now promote abstinance over common sense, thus alienating and confusing teens whose bodies are changing, and increasing their risk of trying sex. I'm partially conservative in that I practice a high degree of celibacy myself, having been celibant for many years now. But I realize that that option doesn't work for everyone.

Now, on the more liberal side of things I fancy myself a sympathizer of the feminist agenda. I realize that it's a terribly chauevenistic thing to assume that all of the girls who become pregnant and want abortions are sluts or irresponsible. The real world is far too complicated to simply label people or situations. I realize it's too easy to be judgemental and I'm not always innocent of that myself...I once took a hard conservative stance on abortions but... not so much anymore.

It's the concept of having to have an abortion that I find appalling...not the real world applications of said precudure as much as the fact that we live in a world where so many unplanned pregnancies occur. I think it's all well and good that people have sex for pleasure. More power to them and all that, but a lot of unplanned pregnancies occur through carelessness. Discounting the rapes, which are truely horrible, there are numerous inatances of people who simply don't practice safe sex, or people who blame it on the booze. There's a lot to be said for responsibility, folks. That includes the guys, too. We males are every bit as responsible for unplanned pregnancies as the females. I've known guys before who spout off about being pro life, but go to keggers on weekends and have sex with strangers. Undoubtebly, more than one of those guys has caused a woman to decide to have an unplanned pregnancy and ultimately an abortion in some cases. Why? Carelessness...on both sides. People who simply act with no foresight...no vision of how their actions will effect the future.

As a moderate on this subject, my final word is that there is no black and white on this issue, really. I can't really support abortions for all, nor condemn them for anyone, but I lament over the circumstances that produce the need for them. I only wish more people would simply try to prevent unplanned pregnancies in the first place.."nip it in the bud" so to speak. It's not so hard...we can be sexually active, fun people without getting pregnant or getting others pregnant. It's as much one gender's fault as the other, really. The males can't really put all the blame on the women, because quite frankly it takes two to tango. I do think people should take responsibility for their actions, but not the classic responsibility taught by pro lifers...I can't condemn the abortion, but I can't encourage people to rely on them again and again. Go ahead..abort. But learn something. Take a good, long look in the mirror and say "Who am I? I'm smarter than this. Noone made me drink seven pints of liquor and pass out at that party. That was all my doing. Now I'm pregnant. I'll know better from now on." Or alternately "I didn't use a condom, and now she's pregnant. This is my fault as much as it is hers. I was reckless and now she's pregnant. I'll know better from now on."

Last but not least, from a new age standpoint, while the above paragraph showed a more conservative tone, an alternative mindset would be that from a certain point of view, while the need for abortions is appalling, the actual procedures might be ethical for the human race as a whole. Just do a little math. Closing in on seven billion human beings on this planet. Massive number...but supposedly this Earth of ours can sustain two billion over a long period of time, with the limited natural resources and all. Is it really ethical to support bringing so much new life into existance each year, when so many children are already starving to death each year? Why not adopt, not breed, and if you must, abort and adopt later! For surely you must realize, dear friends, that each new mouth fed in this world spells doom for one less fortunate. Abort if you must, learn from it but please don't forget that there are kids out there who need our help. We can serve them better by being commited nonbreeders and refusing to add to the gene pool until human population begins to decline back to decent levels. That's just some food for thought and an alternate perspective on the issue.

[princessemma]

I think if people choose not to have children that's up to them, but I chose to have my daughter and one day I hope to have more children. All children born into our family will be raised as vegans and taught to respect the earth, the animals and other people and lets be honest vegans are in short supply, perhaps we should be 'breeding' and there should be less children born to the meat and dairy eating people. I look to my daughter and see (fingers crossed) a lot of hope for the future.

[geysir111]

I think if people choose not to have children that's up to them, but I chose to have my daughter and one day I hope to have more children. All children born into our family will be raised as vegans and taught to respect the earth, the animals and other people and lets be honest vegans are in short supply, perhaps we should be 'breeding' and there should be less children born to the meat and dairy eating people. I look to my daughter and see (fingers crossed) a lot of hope for the future.

I completely agree with that and think also of the subculture than vegetarian and vegan activists are (as each king of activism is a subculture). And some of us, me included, want to increase our number to get our culture bigger as well, even if it's for the animals and the earth first of all... That's also why the need of vegan eco-villages, or vegan "lairs". We aren't enough to claim a nation :D but some eco-village is good to have, as well as sanctuaries for freed animals...


No issue is ever truely black and white. All some people seem to see is "murdering babies". What about the women who are raped every year and forced to carry a child they never wanted? Do you think it's at all ethical to force them to carry and deliver a child into this world under such conditions? The fetus isn't the only living thing in question here. What about the feelings and mental state of the woman? I would imagine rape would be traumatizing enough without having to give birth to the rapist's baby.

I like your way of seeing things Pilaf, I agree with you in the sens that things are not black or white and it's why I think abortion should be allowed when the life or the health of the mother is endangered, including mental health as well... But still, they're human beeings and shouldn't be killed as a "parasite", like some pro-choice appreciate to call them like that... I respect everybody's point of view but I can think of other ways of dealing with the baby when the mother is mentally unstable... the baby could be adopted (and there will have much moire baby adopted when the governments will allow adoption (and marriage) to homosexual couples). The baby could be implanted in another girl body when possible of course instead of aborting him/her (like in lesbian couples who would really like a baby).

Sexual education is going wrong, in the US also maybe, I admit, it's the case in other countries as well... but the problem is that for the reason I've said, I found completely immoral to kill a human beeing just for conveniance. So we have to change the way children and teenagers are educated but we should ban abortion in the same way I think. It HAS to come with other laws and regulations within the months after to work properly. For instance, I found pretty irresponsable that mens aren't taking care of the babies they beget. It's a 2 way responsability, I'm not machist and think that on that matters, mens are often more responsibles of these acts than women, they're often the root of the problem.

All the best,

And loads of love to vegan pro-choice as well! :-)

[greenworlds]

I'm not sure it is possible for anyone to get any part of their lives right if animals are still used for food, food is a basic requirement. I believe whatever policies/guidelines/ general accepted stances etc etc people we always mess up badly eating animals..thats the stuff of savages, so forget any thing working right as long as that carry on continues.
I'm much more against vegans having abortions.







Killing an animal lets the demons out, eating one lets them in

[indianvegan]

INDIA LOST TEN MILLION FEMALES DUE TO ABORTION :eek:
Washington, Jan 9 : An estimated 10 million female foetuses have been aborted in India over the last two decades, according to a study of birth rates by British medical journal Lancet. A team of researchers from Canada and India analysed information from 133,738 births in 1997 across India, and determined that fewer females are born as second or third children to families who do not yet have a boy, compared to those who already have a boy. The statistics according to birth order were striking, according to the study that is being published online Monday. The sex ratio for the second birth when the preceding child was a girl was 759 girls per 1,000 males, and for the third child was 719 girls if the previous two children were girls. But if the previous children were boys, there were from 1,102 to 1,176 girls born for every 1,000 males. The girl rates dropped even more precipitously for children born to more educated mothers - with schooling beyond Class 10 - where only 683 to 756 girls were born for every 1,000 boys if the previous births were girls.

The data on female fertility, taken from an ongoing Indian national survey of six million people, showed that only 13.1 million girls were born that year. According to natural sex ratios from other countries, there should have been 13.6 to 13.8 million girls born in 1997, indicating a shortfall of 590,000 to 740,000 female babies. The authors of the study - Indian-origin Prabhat Jha of St. Michael's Hospital at the University of Toronto, and Rajesh Kumar of the Post Graduate Institute of Medical Education and Research in Chandigarh, India, - suggest that the use of widely available ultrasound and other diagnostic tools in India, followed by abortion of female foetuses, explained the discrepancy. "We conservatively estimate that prenatal sex determination and selective abortion accounts for 0.5 million missing girls yearly," he said. "If this practise has been common for most of the past two decades since access to ultrasound became widespread, then a figure of 10 million missing female births would not be unreasonable."

Prenatal sex determination has been illegal since 1994, but the law is often ignored, the study said. Other statistics supported the finding, the study said. Among children six years old or younger in India, the number of girls per 1,000 boys has dropped from 962 in 1981 to 945 in 1991 and 927 in 2001. The practise of aborting female foetuses appears to be even more widespread in China, where only 847 to 877 girls were born for every 1,000 boys in 2002. The authors ruled out infanticide as an explanation for the lower numbers, pointing out the wide availability of ultrasound and other diagnostic procedures. "To have a daughter is socially and emotionally accepted if there is a son, but a daughter's arrival is often unwelcome if the couple already have a daughter," Shirish Sheth of the Breach Candy Hospital in Mumbai wrote in a Lancet editorial. Daughters "eventually belong to the family of her future husband", Sheth wrote.

Sorry too much text, but I want to show bitter truth with stats.

Manish

[Geoff]

Thanks Manish.
It's very sad.

[Seaside]

Prenatal sex determination has been illegal since 1994, but the law is often ignored, the study said. I thought that I had read this somewhere else, too. Its terrible that people want sons so badly that they will break this law in order to kill their unborn daughters just because they are the "wrong" sex.

[princessemma]

Yes this is horrific and of course in China orphanages are full of unwanted baby girls. When I hear men saying they want a son so they can play football with him or carry on the family name I think how sad and outdated. Anyone who wants a child should be happy to have a daughter or a son and if they aren't maybe they shouldn't have a child at all.
My daughter is an absolute joy and my husband said he would be over-the-moon to have more daughters.
When a neighbour was pregnant with her Asian partners child they refused to tell them the sex of the baby and he suspected this was because it was a girl and they thought he'd encorage his partner to have an abortion. He was sad they thought like this but said he understood they had to be careful.
Of course the culture of countries like India and China treats men better and until people are believe otherwise girls and women are going to get a raw deal.

[greenworlds]

I saw a documentry/ film a few yrs ago showing an indian lady in india who had been set on fire because she hadn't produced a baby boy, she explained that herself and died soon after the filming. These sort of practices could only come from meat eating..I would find it hard to believe a vegetarian Hindu would do such a cruel sub- human things. I think eating meat is sub human, so nothing such an eater does is suprising to me, shocking yes, suprising no.:(





"Peace to all-kind"