Abortion

[IndigoSea]

Well, I wrote about this in my LJ only a little while ago, so this is an edited version thereof

I'm trying to keep this to a human perspective, animals should have rights, should be free, should be protected, but abortion is a human rights issue.


I believe, basically, in compassion toward all living things. I know that sounds horribly cliché, and it is little more than an ideal I try to live up to I guess, but I think it's one all people should have. As I'm sure some great person has said, compassion is the greatest human quality anyone can ever posess. Yet I have no patience for people who don't pull their own weight in life and then whine and bitch about it, or whine that they're oh-so depressed when they haven't left the basement in a year (gee, I wonder why they're depressed?) but still, I believe in compassion. The most basic manifestation of it is that I don't eat animals or animal-derived products. There are many logical reasons for this, but I don't think the meat and dairy industry can support itself and the welfare of its livestock at the same time, and when money can go in their pockets or toward a vet fixing a dairy cow's eye infection, it's gonna go in their pocket.

It's this that has made me start thinking about abortion, and reevaluating my opinions on it. When people asked me why I was vegetarian I gave it the usual- Oh because it causes needless suffering and needless death, and all lifeforms should be free to roam under the sun, and just not have to die because of human selfishness. But then there was always the nagging thing in the back of my head that said "But you're a total hypocrite when it comes to humans." So how not to be a hypocrite?

I believe in rights and personal choices and compassion. How then can I endorse a practice that basically kills a human regardless of choice and rights? Of course, a 4 month old Foetus is incapable of having an opinion or a choice in the matter, but where mental comprehension falls short, human rights pick up, or at least they should. The problem is between the rights of the foetus and the choice of the mother. The woman is free to make a choice that denies the rights of the foetus, but reverse it and the foetus' right to life denies the mother a choice. But between life and a choice, isn't life more important? But that's it at the simplest. Abortions are lifestyle choices- there's not enough money, not enough time, still college to complete. Regardless it seems cruel to kill the foetus because you made a bad choice (by not taking proper precautions before having sex), and now it's your right to make yet another "choice", and kill a human life. It just seems wrong to take life. Of course I know, there are those who did use condoms or the pill or whatever method they choose, and it failed. But none of these methods are 100% sure to work- NONE. Everyone should know that. If you REALLY don't want to get pregnant then use a combination, or if it's absolutely your worst fear in the world ever just frikkin' abstain! A christian is the last thing I am, but if you are phobic of getting pregnant, abstinance is just logical. No one (hopefully) is forcing you to have sex. That's the point at which the woman should be making her choice, before a life is ever created. Yes rape and incest does happen, and it's the cause of all of 1% of abortions. I think that, of course, the option should be there for women who have been through that sort of horrific ordeal, because they never got the choice on whether or not to have sex in the first place. They should get their choice.

I don't believe abortion should be illegal, like I don't think alcohol drugs and tobacco should be illegal. These are personal choices that we make for ourselves, and we deal with the consequences. I think governments underestimate our own intelligence to make our own choices. I think the problem is that we're told too much. To quote the love of my life Bill Bryson on the matter:

"Still, there is a kind of emptiness of thought at large these days that is hard to overlook. The phenomenon is now widely known as the Dumbing Down of America. ?I first noticed it myself a few months ago when I was watching something called the Weather Channel on TV and the meteorologist said "And in Albany today they had 12 inches of snow," then brightly added, "That's about a foot."
No, actually that is a foot, you poor, sad imbecile.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't for a moment think that Americans are inherently more stupid or brain-dead than anyone else. It's just that they are routinely provided with conditions that spare them the need to think, and so they have got out of the habit." ?

We're underestimated, we ARE spared the need to think. We have laws telling us "don't do drugs!" so we don't need to ever really stop and think about them, or anything like that. It's just assumed by the government we're too damn retarded to actually make a choice for ourselves. But we don't NEED to have laws telling us what to do and what not to do for our own health and mental wellbeing, we should be in an environment where we take a book off the shelves, look up crack, see it's horribly addictive and kills people and causes constipation, and be able to say "no I don't think I'll do that." THAT would be freedom.

My point is I don't think abortion should be illegal, I think another law making decisions for us is the last thing we need. I think we should make our choices BEFORE we put ourselves into a situation of potential impregnation, and if we get pregnant we should look at it from a human rights perspective. You *made* your choice, own it. But this would need to be a cultural and social change. I think that's the only real way of doing things like this. People need to be told the risks and have things explained to them properly.

Which brings me to one of my main gripes about the "pro-life" lobby.
It's anti-sex-education. I heard an NPR report a few days ago about how the want the morning-after pill banned because "Older men can convince young girls to have sex with them and offer them this pill as reassurance"... um, what?
They're crusading to make abortion illegal, but aren't actually fighting the root causes of it with anything other than "abstaaaiinn!". I did mention abstinance earlier as a good method of preventing pregnancy for the 100% Terrified-of-pregnancy people, but most teenagers aren't like that. Most of them just want to mess around and experiment with their bodies, and that's perfectly natural. If we taught them how to do this, like what times of the month are safest, to take the pill/injection, and to use condoms, then we wouldn't be dealing with such horrific ignorance on their part. The only thing a lack of education will do is breed absolute ignorance. I've heard such horror-stories about girls who BELIEVE it when guys tell them they can't get pregnant at certain times, or that pull-out is a 100% safe method, or that they can't get pregnant if it's their first time. Well when they've never been told any differently how are they supposed to know any better? And then the poor things get pregnant and either end up in abortion clinics or with no high shool degree and a baby. Is a night of sex worth either of those two? Then there is their constant cawing about "adoption adoption!" Something like 4000 abortions are done a day. I may just be woefully ignorant about the number of people willing to adopt, but would over 4000 babies or children be adopted a day? And the thing is that even when a woman doesn't want a baby at first, after 9 months some horemones and instincts are bound to have kicked in, and a woman who would have given her child up may decide to keep it. This woman may be poor, and it's possible the child could be abused. A child born to, say, a crack addict will not only have severe mental and physical problems, but could wait years to be adopted, and if kept could suffer horrible abuses. Of course that's narrowing it down to the worst possibility, and I'm sure that's a tiny percentage. But I worry about the young girls.

So how realistic is the adoption option? And will it be the people who preach it be the ones who step forward and take these children in when no one else will?

The best thing I can think of right now is the early-abortion option, the abortion pill. It's still a human life, but it's so underdeveloped, and at a point where it cannot yet respond to external stimuli, which brings me to the pain debate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905892.stm

Which brings me to the end of the pain debate, or should. But the thing is that a lot of people just assume that because a foetus can respond to stimuli, it can feel pain like a post-birth human. It can't, but pain is a ridiculous thing to base an argument against abortion on anyway. Animals can feel pain when they're slaughtered, but that too is a silly thing to base an argument against meat on. We all feel pain, every day, it's part of being an organism. This argument shouldn't be based on pain, or the Bible, or Jesus, or bad science. It should be based on human rights, and our concern in it should be a concern for the rights of all humans, not just unborn ones. If one is "pro-life" one CAN'T be pro-death penalty, pro-war, pro-let people with AIDS suffer. If one is then one is a hypocrite, a real honest to God through and through hypocrite. If someone is like that then you have no right to call themselves "pro-life" These are human rights and we can't cherry-pick who should have those rights and who should not, regardless of human concepts such as "innocence" and "guilt". We're all humans, we all deserve human rights.

To use a quick analogy for the population argument I've read here; There is terrible overpopulation of deer in some of the northern states. They overbrowse certain vegetation, certain treelings and wildflowers. This causes changes in the ecosystem, and effects biodiversity.
It's not their fault, of course it's not. It's the fault of humans making careless mistakes and not taking the environment into consideration. Yet the deer are the ones who have to pay the price for this, they're the ones who get hunted and shot because of human mistakes in the first place. Is that right? No, of course it's not. So why is it right for us to abort children based on our own careless mistakes when it comes to population? The overpopulation is our own fault for not being careful, so again, why do the innocent pay the price for our blunders? It's wrong to kill a deer because of deer overpopulation, but right to kill a human because of human overpopulation?
Gimme a break.

[forthebirds]

The overpopulation is our own fault for not being careful, so again, why do the innocent pay the price for our blunders? It's wrong to kill a deer because of deer overpopulation, but right to kill a human because of human overpopulation?
Gimme a break.

I don't think it's so much using abortion to control over population, but for those who don't want a pregnancy or birth or child it certainly will lessen the problem. I personally know enough situations of women who had children they can't or won't take care of to appreciate those who recognized they couldn't and aborted the pregnancy early.

I personally view an aborted 12-week-old fetus in the same way I view an egg or sperm that never had the opportunity to produce. I just see it as happenstance that on any particular occasion there is a chance for actual reproduction. Any of those combinations of eggs and sperm would have produced any combination of fetuses. In the same way I don't mourn during my monthly cycle for what could have been, I don't attach personalization to an immature fetus that may or may not result in a birth.

Like the natural desire to have sex and reproduce - which is something we don't control - I can empathize with the human emotions that get attached to reproduction, since it is similarly a pre-programmed mechanism. So for those who most strongly have that desire to have children and can't, I can see how the idea of abortion can be a horrible concept. But I similarly empathize with a woman who has no desire to be pregnant or give birth choosing to end a pregnancy.

Thankfully this week the US approved the sale of Plan B Emergency Contraception for sale over the counter for women over 18. It will be interesting to see if that in any way reduces the number of abortions. That would certainly be the best outcome for all.

[IndigoSea]

In the same way I don't mourn during my monthly cycle for what could have been, I don't attach personalization to an immature fetus that may or may not result in a birth.

The difference is that by mourning a period you're mourning something that may have been. By mourning a lost fetus you're mourning something that actually WAS. There is an enormous difference there. I don't want kids right now, and to be honest I don't really like spending time around them or babies. Not everyone who doens't jump on the abortion bandwagon is a religious fruitcake who loves kids, because quite honestly I'm not and I don't.

What it quite simply and purely comes down to is human rights, nothing more and nothing less. A fetus is a human, and underdeveloped human yes, but still a human. No matter where we're from, how old we are, what we've done in life, we ALL deserve basic human rights. And saying some people can have rights and some can't and some can get a few rights just isn't going to make society any more progressive. The pro-life arguments I hear sound like a crock of BS, but to be honest the pro-choice arguments I hear sound like nothing but excuses; Oh well it helps the population, oh well it's the woman's body, oh well the child would be horribly abused...

Well yes, of course killing unborn babies would help the population, but so would ethnic cleansing, war, disease, hunger, genocide- and do we use "helps the population" to justify those?
Yes it's the woman's body and she should have control over it, but why wait until a life has been created to display some responsibility for their bodies? Because then it's not just the woman's body anymore.
And yes, children can be abused, but using that in favour of abortion is a Red Herring argument. Most of us don't have perfect upbringings, but good things can come from broken homes, and terrible things can come from perfect homes. The fact of the matter is that most of the time abortion is purely a lifestyle choice.


I am glad that the OTC morning-after pill is going to be available soon. I really don't think abortion should be illegal, or even hard to get. Like clinton said, "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." but it's really not rare right now, and I think ignorance and plain carelessness are to blame. I think the problem really needs to be cut off at those sources. :rolleyes:

[forthebirds]

No matter where we're from, how old we are, what we've done in life, we ALL deserve basic human rights.

I guess we are just going to have to disagree on that. I don't consider a 12 week old fetus (which is the time frame when the majority of abortions occur) as having the same rights as the woman carrying it. The woman still has months of being a host ahead, and all the potential complications and costs that will ensue, not to mention the risk of child birth itself, the trauma of giving up a child, or being ostracized by family or society, etc. etc. The right to decide if that is how she wants to proceed, IMO, overrides all else - including any supposed rights of a fetus.

I just don't sit in judgment of how or why a woman gets pregnant as criteria for having an abortion, since I don't see ending a pregnancy by that 12 week period as a human rights issue, but a women's rights issue. I just can't imagine telling a woman that she must carry a pregnancy to term against her will. Can you? Is that the kind of society you feel comfortable living in? To me that's ultimately what it comes down to: Women having that right to choose, and society accepting that it's her right to do so - without prejudice or judgment.

[IndigoSea]

I just can't imagine telling a woman that she must carry a pregnancy to term against her will. Can you? Is that the kind of society you feel comfortable living in?

I guess you didn't read my posts all the way through, but then they were pretty long so I don't really blame you.
If you'll go back over them however, you'll find numerous occasions where I state that I don't think abortion should be illegal- just rare. I think that it needs to stop being used as something we know we can fall back on if we don't bother taking proper precautions now.

[forthebirds]

I think that it needs to stop being used as something we know we can fall back on if we don't bother taking proper precautions now.

I did read your posts. But where we differ is that the reason - whether someone didn't take proper precautions, or their birth control failed, or they were raped - has no bearing on my support for any woman choosing an abortion.

If it is all about the fetus, than why is it suddenly okay for a rape victim to have an abortion, but not the teenager who wasn't given the proper education about sex and birth control? Or the woman who thought she wasn't ovulating, or the one whose condom broke? Any woman left with an unwanted pregancy still has to deal with the resulting anguish of her circumstances, regardless of how she ended up there. And I refuse to judge one woman's reasons over another as being more legitimate.

Abortion is so traumatic, physically and mentally, that if a few idiots among the thousands are casually utilizing it as a "form of birth control", than I'm willing to accept that in favor of the majority of "one-timers" for which it is something to be avoided in the future, having gone through it once.

So I support it being a "fall-back" for a few, so it can be used as intended by many, because you can't eliminate stupid people from society. If they see nothing wrong with going through that painful procedure over and over, and paying $500 each time, nothing is going to change their minds. It's their choice, and as ludicrous as it may seem to others, it needs to stay that way.

[sandra]

I don't stand in judgement of anyone who thinks abortion is ok. I can only speak for myself and say it is something I could never do. When I look at my children I think, what if when they were 12 weeks old, I had aborted them? I believe life begins when the egg is fertilized and that everyone has a right to that life.
Part of the reason I am vegan is because I value all forms of life and don't stand in judgement as to which life has a right to exist or not.
Just because a foetus/baby cannot exist outside the womb before a certain time does not in my opinion make it a lifeless entity with no right to be. After all we were all once at that stage of development, what if we had been aborted?

[Soyalicius]

This is such a difficult subject to put a judgement on.

Firstly abortion should not be illegal, we could not go back to back street illegal abortions and the risk of infection etc.

Anyone who has not been raped cannot imagine what a perspn goes through, mentally and physically and so therefore early in pregnancy cannot even think about them being pregnant, never mind the outcome, and the statistics of 1% could be higher as a lot of rapes do not get reported, especially if someone is married to the person who is raped.

Another thing is those who get pregnant 'unexpectedly' meaning those who do not use contteception without thinking of the consequences are usually those who would not think twice about having an abortion. Would these people really make good parents and what kind of life would the child have in deprived areas? With parents with addiction problems in one way or another.

Also what about women who have infections such as HIV and Hepititas C? Should they have babies to pass these things on?

If the child is disabled, it is often not found out until the mother is about 14 - 16 weeks pregnant. If the baby is going to be seriously disabled, have muscular wasting disease which will end in suffering and young death or cystic fibrosis or other birth defects which will have an impact on the quality of life for the baby, then nobody can judge or blame the mother for abortion. Nobody knows how they will cope until they are faced with it and no one can judge.

Personally, I could never put myself through it, as that is my personal view, but other people should be able to make their own decisions.

Obviously education and free contreception to all would benifit in a big way, but this is not an ideal world.

[IndigoSea]

It is an insanely difficult topic, and I think the fact that womens rights and human rights clash is part of what makes it so complicated.

I would not want to live in a world where a raped woman was told she could not have an abortion, or any woman was told she couldn't have one for that matter. However, I think I'd love to live in one where all life was valued and everyone was a vegan, but what are the chances of that? :rolleyes:

And about HIV, it actually gets passed on to the infant during birth, and there is an injection babies born to HIV mothers (in rich countries, at least) get at birth which prevents the virus ever taking hold.
However, the fact that both parents would likely have HIV is reason enough not to bring a child into that situation. I wouldn't want to have a child who was aware I would die while they were still very young... :/

[sandra]

Yes, everyones situation is different, I do not know how I would feel about a pregnancy if I had been raped! There are other considerations aswell which I am not qualified to comment on. It still remains the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions are done just because the pregnancy is unwanted.
Again, I can only speak for myself, but if I ever found myself in that position, I know I could never have an abortion. As for women having babies and not being fit to be a parent, they should put the child up for adoption, rather than end it's life. There are thousands of people who would love to adopt a baby and can't.
I would like to say again, I do not stand in judgement of anyone, I after all can only say how I feel about it and what I would do or not do.

[digable]

to split yourself in two
is just the most radical thing you can do
so girl if that shit ain't up to you
then you simply are not free
cuz from the sunlight on my hair
to which eggs i grow to term
to the expression that i wear
all i really own is me
yes to split yourself in two
is just the most radical thing you can do
goddess forbid that little atom
should grow so jealous of eve
and in the face of the great farce
of the nuclear age
feminism ain't about equality
it's about reprieve
-
Ani DiFranco - Repreive

[forthebirds]

As for women having babies and not being fit to be a parent, they should put the child up for adoption, rather than end it's life. There are thousands of people who would love to adopt a baby and can't..

Maybe she doesn't because she doesn't want to go through a pregnancy? Go through child birth? Put more stress on our planet? Take the risk of placing her child in an abusive situation? Have a disabled baby that is not "adoption" desirable? Have the child look for her later in life? It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to have a child to anyone but her. So "just because" some people want to adopt a child, doesn't make a woman responsible for fulfilling their desire, simply because she's found herself pregnant.

There are so many children without parents, that the lack of available children up for adoption is clearly not the problem you want to believe it is. The reality is that there isn't enough parents for all the unwanted children in the world.

You may not want to think you are being judgmental, but you are. You are "judging" the reasons behind why some people choose to have an abortion. Are you not?

[sandra]

No, I really don't want to come across as judgemental forthebirds, but I don't think stating 'she doesn't want to go through a pregnancy' or 'go through child birth' are good enough reasons to end a life. Maybe that person should have thought more before having sex in the first place! Worrying about the child looking for her in later life, all these points sound a little selfish to me.
I really am not trying to judge anyone, as I said if this is what is right for someone and they are happy with that then so be it. I am only saying it would not be for me, please don't think I am judging, I'm just stating what I feel and obviously it will not be right for everyone.

[forthebirds]

No, I really don't want to come across as judgemental forthebirds, but I don't think stating 'she doesn't want to go through a pregnancy' or 'go through child birth' are good enough reasons to end a life. Maybe that person should have thought more before having sex in the first place! Worrying about the child looking for her in later life, all these points sound a little selfish to me.

Well if you can't be selfish regarding your own body, I'm not sure when you can! :)

Do you know the kind of risks pregnancy can carry, what it can do to your body, create conditions that didn't exist before like diabetes and other illnesses? That you may have to be on bed rest for months, causing loss of income, etc? And the risks of childbirth, the pain involved, the costs, the resulting effects? Suffering from post-partum depression? And on and on. I see nothing wrong with a woman having the right to decide if she wants to go through that or not.

And I'm sure you are aware that not having an abortion still does not guarantee that you will carry a child to term. So whether or not a pregnancy with result in a viable human life is really yet to be determined at that point. As I stated earlier, we don't provide death certificates for miscarriages at 3 months nor do we issue birth certificates at conception. So what constitutes official "life" to you is not necessarily what is the standard definition.

If anything, I find it selfish to proclaim sex can only be for those ready, willing and able to reproduce! Not only is it unrealistic that people are not going to have sex because of the possibility of pregnancy but I find it ridiculous to request it of others because you have a problem with abortion. Judgmental, judgmental...;)

[sandra]

I do know the risks forthebirds, I have had 2 Caesarean sections, one was an emergency!
I suppose I will just have to use my usual quote in these circumstances,
'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it' Voltaire. :)

[sugarmouse]

I can see every point of view on abortion(lol i feel like I have said something very silly there) I mean, I can see the good points in each side of the argument.

for the points made by Sandra among others...I guess the selflessness in that situation can only be admirable....

Iknow, personally,and this kind of reflects what forthebirds wrote,I could not deal withcarrying thru a pregnancy.Emotionally,physically,mentally.I am not cut out to be pregnant.

[digable]

I am vegan because of the 'process' more than the death. I find it apalling that we should presume to 'use' living things for food etc. The cruelty involved with the process of the meat & dairy industries is the main problem for me.
Death happens to all things. In a perfect world there would be no killing of animals, or fetuses but I think we can all agree that this world is far from perfect.
How many people would be vegan if they had to raise & care for every animal they DIDN'T EAT?
Veganism is something you can do every day to opt out of suffering & exploitation. Abortion is an agonising, but hopefully one-off, decision that a woman makes, and I believe should be free to make.

The environmental impact of meat & dairy is the other huge issue for me. Choosing veganism helps to cut carbon emissions & is generally good for the environment. One of the biggest problems for the environment is overpopulation. The way we are using resources is completely unsustainable even with the current population levels.
Of course I am not saying that abortion should be used as a population control, nor should it be used as birth control - it should be what it is:
a last resort for a woman.

This is why I see the issues as important but seperate - I feel no conflict in being vegan AND pro-choice. (Not pro-abortion. As if that even exists.)
I also feel it is your right to be anti-abortion , and to feel as if it has anything to do with veganism. I don't think there is any ONE WAY to be vegan, or a woman, or a human.

[IndigoSea]

This is why I see the issues as important but seperate - I feel no conflict in being vegan AND pro-choice. (Not pro-abortion. As if that even exists.)

I know several people who are actively pro-choice and pro-abortion, they would seriously prefer for everyone to get abortions, and would encourage it. I myself am pro-choice and anti-abortion. I think that the choice should be there, that it should be legal, but I think it is morally wrong.

It's not black and white. nothing is ever as simple as "pro" and "anti"

[nibelwolf]

I'll never understand the comparison between humans deliberately forcing animals to breed to bring offspring into existence only to be tortured, killed and eaten to a woman choosing to abort a fetus. What does one have to do with the other? If anything, vegans should be more sensitive to the connection between over population and the resulting assault on the animals and the planet that results in trying to sustain us all. [...] Overall, I simply cannot understand any vegan who is not 'zero population growth' oriented and supports any means to reduce the production of more humans. Where do you think all these precious human lives you sentimentalize (is that a word;) ) about are going to reside once there is no longer an Earth to sustain them?

Hallelujah!

I thought I was alone with this! I am pro-choice, hell, I'm pro-abortion, for exactly this reason. There's too many of us - six and a half million people! The planet is dying and we're just creating more and more of us to help kill it. We as vegans should know better.

Every child that comes into the world will consume resources and produce waste and pollution. All of us do, not that we have much of a choice in the matter. And not all of the children that are coming into this world will be vegan. Actually, very few of them will be. So they will be consuming more animal products, they will create more animal suffering. The more children people put into the world the more animals suffer and the more the planet suffers. Six and a half billion humans - I think it's more than enough.

We have the knowledge that our planet is already aching under our weight, poisoned by our garbage and losing species of fauna and flora to our collective greed and shortsightedness. And yet people cover their eyes and ears and keep breeding, making the situation worse and worse.

They try to find excuses like, "well, the planet isn't dying, we can still sustain a lot more people, we'll let you know when it's getting bad!" I mean, what the hell? Does nobody have respect toward the Earth at all? Is it just a resource to be sucked dry? We shouldn't push to see how bad we can make things before we pull back, we should pull back right now.

So I won't have kids, and if I do accidentally wind up pregnant, I will get an abortion, and I applaud any woman who does. Of course, the Morning After Pill would be an even better solution because it wouldn't be as traumatizing as most abortions.

For me, planet life will always be more important than human life.

[RedWellies]

I don't know if it's already been said before but if you fall pregnant and don't want the child, there's plenty of people out there that do. Why not let the baby be put up for adoption?

In a way, I agree with Sandra...no-one forces us to have sex (hopefully!!). If you are having sex, remember that no contraception is 100% foolproof and you might have to deal with the consequences.

I wouldn't want abortion to be illegal for many reasons. However, as individuals, we can choose whether to end a life or not.

[forthebirds]

I don't know if it's already been said before but if you fall pregnant and don't want the child, there's plenty of people out there that do. Why not let the baby be put up for adoption?

In a way, I agree with Sandra...no-one forces us to have sex (hopefully!!). If you are having sex, remember that no contraception is 100% foolproof and you might have to deal with the consequences.




If you read some of my posts, those exact issues are discussed. :)

[nibelwolf]

I don't know if it's already been said before but if you fall pregnant and don't want the child, there's plenty of people out there that do. Why not let the baby be put up for adoption?

I don't want to get too involved in the morals of abortion because my opinion on it are somewhat unique compared to most peoples', but I will say this:

Actually, while quite a few people want to adopt children, there's still so many kids that barely any of them find homes. The reason is very simple: people want to have kids "of their own". If they can have their own kids, people rarely want to adopt someone else's. It's a very sad fact. I've heard this from a lot of people. "I couldn't adopt, it wouldn't be my child."

Also, to me, due to my reasons for being pro-abortion, it doesn't matter where the child ends up, a home or an adoption center, they're another addition to the world's overpopulation.

However, as individuals, we can choose whether to end a life or not.

That is correct, and if and when the time comes, I will choose not to help end the planet's life and abort my pregnancy.

[sandra]

With all due respect niblewolf, isn't it just as well your parents didn't have that attitude when they were expecting you! :)

[puffin]

I have kids, and i have said on this forum before that i dont think i am over populating the world with 2. People can choose to have children if they wish and people shouldnt be made to feel bad about having them. I agree that having a army of kids is just selfish but no one has the right to moan about people who choose to have a loving family and give birth to there own children.

[RedWellies]

If you read some of my posts, those exact issues are discussed. :)

Yes, sorry, I haven't read the whole thread (which is so hypercritical of me as I moan to myself when other people say that!!:o ). I just felt I had to say something then and there!

As for the adoption issue...there are lots of older/disabled unwanted children. However, there is not a back-log of babies, and that is what I was referring to.