Abortion

[LittleMissVegan]

I can see every point of view on abortion(lol i feel like I have said something very silly there) I mean, I can see the good points in each side of the argument.

for the points made by Sandra among others...I guess the selflessness in that situation can only be admirable....

Iknow, personally,and this kind of reflects what forthebirds wrote,I could not deal withcarrying thru a pregnancy.Emotionally,physically,mentally.I am not cut out to be pregnant.

I think I've agreed with you before on this issue Sugarmouse. I do have sex but I am very very careful about contraception. In the 9 years I've been having sex I've never had a scare. But if the unfortunate did happen then personally I could not go through a pregnancy nor birth. Like you said I'm just not cut out to be pregnant. Everyone has the right to have a family if they want one- but people also have the right not to have a family if they choose that option aswell.

Sam x

[nibelwolf]

sandra:
With all due respect niblewolf, isn't it just as well your parents didn't have that attitude when they were expecting you!

With all due respect, sandra, when my parents were expecting me the world was a very different place, and overpopulation was not the issue it is today (twenty-four years ago the world's population was two billion less than it is today, and when my parents were at the age when they considered having children, it was three billion less). It was not as publicized and people didn't know about it. If they had known, maybe they would've had the same attitude, maybe not. Also, I'm not a clone of my parents, I do not hold all of their beliefs. They're not vegan, so, what, are you suggesting that I should follow their example as well and eat animals again?

Finally, this is one of the most ancient and tired pro-life arguements in the book. I wouldn't know if it would be "just as well" if I hadn't been born. If I hadn't been born, I wouldn't have spent twenty years eating animals and contributing to the pollution problem and the world may well have been better off. And me, I wouldn't have known the difference because I would've never existed in the first place. I wouldn't be able to resent my parents for not creating me because I wouldn't be there. The rest of the human population wouldn't even know that it was missing me because there just wouldn't be a me, so it's hard to say if anyone had been worse off or not.

Sorry, that arguement doesn't roll with me. I said it before and I'll say it again, the planet is more important than the individual human being, even if that human being is me.

puffin:
I have kids, and i have said on this forum before that i dont think i am over populating the world with 2. People can choose to have children if they wish and people shouldnt be made to feel bad about having them. I agree that having a army of kids is just selfish but no one has the right to moan about people who choose to have a loving family and give birth to there own children.

Actually, "stopping at two" was the motto of Zero Population Growth back in 1968, when the world population lay at around 3.5 billion. Nowadays, it's not very likely that just having two kids will do very much in terms of moving toward Zero Population Growth. When a couple has two kids, the environmental impact that family has doubles right away, assuming that the kids will be environmentally conscious and don't have kids themselves (and you can't exactly order them not to have any!). This strategy would work if, like fish and some insects, we'd spawn and then die, or had plenty of natural predators, but we don't. Most people live to see the births of their grandchildren or great-grandchildren. If everyone in your family just has two children a couple, by the time you have grandchildren there will be twelve people in your family, if you live to see your great-grandkids, there will be twenty-eight.

The fact is, that if there is an overpopulation, and a couple chooses to procreate, they are, in fact, adding to the overpopulation, it's basic math. Over the course of generations this offspring can lead to even more offspring, leading to more people.

Yes, by law people are allowed to choose to have kids or not. I don't agree with it, but unfortunately it's ever so difficult to order people to do what's right for themselves or the rest of the world, because people are selfish at heart. Even I'm selfish in my own way, it's human nature.

Also, yes, I will continue to believe that nowadays, having kids instead of adopting them is very selfish, considering the world's overpopulation, species going extinct everyday as a direct result of our overpopulation, the environmental damage that the world suffers due to our overpopulation right now, the number of children without parents or homes, and, in fact, the amount of children without food or water. This obviously wounds some egos, but hey, I get lots of remarks about how eco-fanatical I am, why am I not allowed to have some opinions myself?

And actually, I have every right to moan about people insisting on having their own children instead of adopting or thinking twice about the planet, just as much as people who have kids have a right to moan about mean people like me being all grouchy and radical.

See, to you, the statement, "having kids adds to the overpopulation and hurts the planet and people shouldn't do it" is offensive. To me, what's being done to the planet is offensive. Let's just agree to disagree, you have your kids, and I don't, but you have to admit that one cannot have kids and maintain to not be adding to the overpopulation.

[puffin]

Fair enough if thats how you feel but i have never felt bad about having my children and never will. Ok i am selfish, thats fine with me.

[nibelwolf]

Well, I wouldn't want you to feel bad about having your kids after having them, I think people who regret having kids later on in life are pretty bad parents!

And like I said, we're all selfish in different ways, I don't think of it so much as an insult as a fact.

[sandra]

Me again nibelwolf, just because I'm against abortion doesn't mean I'm FOR over populating the earth!
I'm not entirely sure the two are connected to any great extent anyway. I think the view that all life [animal and human] is disposable, is doing the most damage to this earth.

[nibelwolf]

sandra:
Me again nibelwolf, just because I'm against abortion doesn't mean I'm FOR over populating the earth!

Well, few people are, obviously ;)

I'm not entirely sure the two are connected to any great extent anyway.

I think that outlawing abortion or just saying that it's wrong suggests that human procreation is so important, so sacred, that anyone who just doesn't want to procreate, or anyone who wants to stop the process of procreation as it occurs is a bad person. And if that is the case, it suggests that human procreation, and the act of breeding, is so crucial, so untouchable, so beautiful, that the rest of the entire world isn't important enough to mean more than this act of creation.

Obviously I'm also for birth control methods, and those are more or less socially accepted ways of preventing births. But if those birth control methods fail, or people forget to use them, I am for abortion, just because the number of people on the planet is already beyond comprehension, and if we want to have a healthy planet, and a healthy population number, we have to start living with the idea that a pregnancy is not always a beautiful thing, that it can, in fact, be a very destructive and terrible thing, not for the woman experiencing it but for the planet itself.

I think the view that all life [animal and human] is disposable, is doing the most damage to this earth.

While that's certainly a terrible view and a very widespread one, I don't think that is what is ruining the planet.

I think the three ideas, "I am more important than the rest of the world", "Humans are more important than the rest of the world" and "I can't be bothered to do anything about it" are what really does most of the damage to the Earth.

I think the reason why America invaded Iraq, for instance, was not due to disregard for human life, but because of the first idea, "we are more important than these people," and, as an extension of that, "our needs are more important than the needs of anyone else."

I do take a very dim view of human nature in general, but I don't think that humans view life as disposable, they're not that cruel, I think that they want their needs to come first, and they can't be bothered to help anyone or anything else; self-centeredness and apathy, not sadism, are what really brought the world to its knees. Of course the reason things have gotten so far is that a few greedy people pushed our society to the point where self-centeredness and apathy just keep making things worse. By themselves they don't do much, but in the right environment, oh boy.

Finally, while it's a sad view, thinking animal or human life disposable, what about the planet's life? Let's not forget about the big picture here. And if the overpopulation of one species threatens the planet's life, why is the planet's life suddenly disposable? Why does the act of breeding in an overpopulated society remain sacred? We, as vegans, are against animal experimentation, for instance, saying that hundreds of animal lives shouldn't be lost just so that one human may live (or at least that's how I see it). But why should large parts of the environment, of the Earth have to die just so one pregnancy musn't end?

Honestly, I wish we weren't in this situation either, but we are. I wish there were risk-free birth control methods, and I wish we lived in a world where having another child will not put a strain on the planet, I wish the world population was dropping, and somewhere under the 1 billion mark, but unfortunately that's not the way things are right now. They're very far from that utopia.

So until things get better, I'll will continue to support abortion, for the sake of the planet that means so much to me.

[sandra]

Very well said nibelwolf, I still don't agree with you though! :)
I don't want to have to use my tried and trusted little quote, the one I always use in circumstances like this but......oh ok I will!
'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' Voltaire. :)

[nibelwolf]

Fair enough.

[RedWellies]

I think that outlawing abortion or just saying that it's wrong suggests that human procreation is so important, so sacred, that anyone who just doesn't want to procreate, or anyone who wants to stop the process of procreation as it occurs is a bad person. And if that is the case, it suggests that human procreation, and the act of breeding, is so crucial, so untouchable, so beautiful, that the rest of the entire world isn't important enough to mean more than this act of creation.
.

I don't think that, although I don't agree with abortion. I just think a life is a life. If you do not want children to the extent that you would kill to not have them, then don't have sex. It's not impossible and will save the planet just as well.:)

[nibelwolf]

I don't think that, although I don't agree with abortion. I just think a life is a life. If you do not want children to the extent that you would kill to not have them, then don't have sex. It's not impossible and will save the planet just as well.

Well, that depends on whether or not one considers a pregnancy a child right from conception, which I don't. And I don't think terminating a pregnancy is an act of killing anymore than brushing bacteria out of my teeth, taking the morning after pill or using a condom.

But that, of course, is the ancient arguement pro-lifers and pro-choicers have, the question of what constitutes a life worth saving. To me, a pregnancy isn't, to you, it is. I don't see those opinions changing anytime soon, so let's just skip it, shall we?

And honestly, I think asking people not to have sex is pretty much as futile as asking them not to have children. Or, in fact, asking them to do anything you want them to do. People will always do what they feel like. If abortion would be illegal, I would not have sex, or I would have my tubes tied before I did. But it's legal where I live, so why go through the motions just on the very unlikely chance that something goes wrong, when to me, abortion is not objectionable?

I plan to take plenty of precautions, but if they, by some freak occurence, all fail me, I will certainly not hesitate to terminate my pregnancy, because, no, in my book, an abortion is not an act of killing in the way you may think it is.

[sandra]

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion again, but I just had to say I agree 100% with you RedWellies!
Right, I'm away now for good, honest. :)

[sugarmouse]

I will always defend abortion.Maybe it comes with a misanthropistic view!! I am not sure.I dont think its a nice thing, or something that is favourable to prevention of the pregnancy! I think its necessary in society.And there are too many of us.

[*PygmyGoat*]

I think an abortion is sometimes the most logical choice in some situations which may prevent suffering - and here I am thinking of the suffering of an unwanted, unloved child :( .

However, it's a very sad and regrettable situation for any person involved and I strongly feel that the cut-off point should be earlier - maybe at around 12 weeks.

I have a child with a disability which may well mean that he will never be fully independant, I also have an Uncle with Downs Syndrome. Sometimes you ask yourself why these things happen, but to me those 2 lives are precious and both individuals have taught many things to those around them :) .

[sandra]

Yes, those lives are precious, PygmyGoat, you are so right!

Sugarmouse, I had to look that word up in the dictionary! I'd never heard it before! I think I'm a bit like that, although I don't think it's people I dislike in general, it's just their attitudes sometimes! :)

[nickysr]

Hi just browsing this thread and just wanted to agree with Nibelwolf .
I am 100% Pro Abortion and really do not see it any different than taking birth control etc...
Being originally from a country that made it impossible to get a termination, I had a few friends who had to travel to England to do this, making what should be relatively easy procedure into a stressful, expensive process.
I do think it is every womans' right to choose and feel really lucky that I have that option available to me should I ever need it.
I live in a borough of London with the highest rate of teen pregnancies in Europe and feel that a termination should be made easier to access as many of these kids end up in care and fostered. A difficult subject I know but I do think we have to be so aware of overpopulation and more education needs to be placed on the options available. I do think a 12 week cut off is too early and feel it is fine as it is.(24 weeks).
This subject is one that can almost be a 'core' belief and is impossible to change minds (I have found!) A bit like meat eating!!!

[sandra]

Yes it is impossible to change minds nickysr! The point you made though that the cut off point is fine at 24 weeks makes me very uneasy. In one part of a hospital they are killing babies through abortion at 24 weeks and in another part they are treating babies of 23, 24 weeks in special care units!
Human beings are really weird, they scare me!

[nickysr]

Well, the legal UK cut off point is 24 weeks - and I agree it is so weird that they are trying to change the age they will treat a premature baby to 21 weeks - does not stack up??! Again there is a really difficult choice when it is a prem - I suppose you would want to try and save it - but then the laws are sku-wiff (never typed that phrase so forgive spelling!) they need to be clear - especailly when it is really prem and the amount of money it costs to try to save it?? Wasn't there something in the news about this? A couple who ewanted their prem baby helped but it was too young for the hospitals terms?
Being from the same country as you - I know this subject is a real hot potato - I forget living in London about Norn Irons strange quirks!

[sandra]

What 'strange quirks' nickysr?

[nickysr]

sorry - realized that sounded like I meant your opinion was a strange quirk! Didn't mean that - meant that when I was growing up there were certain topics one never really discussed - abortion being one of them... it seems more open here to speak... but forgive me if I am talking crap - I have not lived there for 18 years!

[sandra]

That's ok, did you live in the South or North of Ireland? I have never found it difficult to discuss abortion, although it is a difficult subject in itself! Maybe I'm wrong here but it might be that attitudes in the South of Ireland are more inhibited, I don't know.
Although there is still the thing were a woman has to travel to England to have an abortion, even from the North!
As I have said earlier, I am not in favour of abortion, and I have had friends who have had abortions so I am in no way demonising anyone, but I remain forever anti-abortion.

[nickysr]

I lived in the North - but in a quite religious environment so this was not discussed... actually growing up religion came into every aspect of life really!
I am amazed you still have to travel to England though - thought as it is part of the UK etc... that would have changed by now??
I think it is important to stick to your principles but try to be tolerant of others - and by your posts it is obvious you do that and are very understanding.

[nickysr]

which is a lovely trait to have!!!

[sandra]

Thank you Nickysr, it's nice to talk with you, and I really love your avatar. That wee face is pretty as a picture! :)

[nickysr]

ditto!

[Swim]

It is not yet technically alive it cannot support itself until at the very earliest 22 weeks.

So I'm pro choice however not past the 24 week mark