Abortion

[Apple_Blossem]

Some very good points have been made on both sides.

I am vegetarian/vegan... I cant kill anything (abortion) OR watch anything suffer (prolife). One of my best friends was a child that was accidently conceived. She was abandoned by her father and watched her mother commit suicide. Because of her upbringing, she is very emotionally unstable and it has wrecked her life, her marriage AND the lives of her children. For hours on end, she cries and relives the past (which happened almost 50 years ago)- watching her mother commit suicide and the doctors trying to resuscitate her mother. She rocks back and forth and cannot socialize with others because her childhood greatly affected her.

She wanted her own two children, but it has been TERRIBLY hard on her children to watch their mother cry for eight hours every few days about her childhood. Her daughter had to have psychological help because she hated seeing her mother suffer so.

Now, I am not PRO-abortion and I am not ANTI-abortion - because I seen unending and TERRIBLE suffering of the baby who is not wanted.
It wrecks 2-3 generations.

I am Pro-sterilization.

ALLL those people who use abortion as a form of birth control need to be sterilized.

I have lived with my boyfriend under the same roof for 5 years. We have slept in the same bed for months on end. We have never touched each other in a sexual way (we've kissed and hugged) - out of respect to our future children. We do not want to bring children into the world when we are unprepared. It would not be fair to the children. I GREATLY respect life, and I do not even want to take a risk.

I know I cannot ask everyone to be like me - it seems like most people are like cats & dogs (this is not a put-down. I LOVE ANIMALS! But we all know their basic natures). Most unwanted pregnancies occur to mothers and fathers of very low IQs. Yes, a small amount of them happen in the highschools, but the majority happen to people who have IQs of 75-100. An interesting point to mention is that this problem is greatest not here in the US but elsewhere: there are cities in Africa of several million people (one being in Kenya) (According to CNN), growing at the rate of 600,000 a year. The people sleep in their own sewage and are starving to death, but the breeding rate is through the roof.

People who cannot support children should be allowed the option of having 1-2 children and then be sterilized. I am not speaking of the people who have 6 children in central mexico - who have farms and are able to feed their themselves. I am referring the the female beggers who keep conceiving children - and send them out to beg for her (I saw this sad sight in Mexico - most having 10 children).

If you believe sterilization is cruel, we must consider the fact that full-term and even part-term abortion is VERY cruel (go re-acquaint yourself with post-abortion photos if your memory is hazy :P).

When you legalize abortion - you legalize part-term and full-term abortion. Many many women opt for the full-term abortion (you'd be surprised when you read the statistics :)).

Maybe the MOTHER should make a sacrifice (and not the BABY) and opt for sterilization rather than abortion. Then, and only then, this would be a loving sacrifice for her babies.

Hey - how many of us opt for sterilization of our beloved cat or dog - a very, very kind decision for the offspring. We do not want to see these puppies or kittens killed in an abortion, and we all cringe at the thought of them being not wanted and being neglected by irresponsible new homes - thrown out on the streets and hit by passing cars.

[DianeVegan]

Wow, I've often wondered about my father's IQ. Now I have some scientific facts to back it up!!;) Sorry but I couldn't resist that one.......

I won't go too far into this discussion as I think I've stated my views in the past. But I would like to add that if we're going to start sterilizing people because they can't support children then why wait until they have 1 or 2?

And I sure hope we're talking about sterilizing men the most since one man can father a child numerous times a day but a woman can only have one pregnancy every 9 months. We could just freeze every man's sperm when he's 18 and then give him a mandatory vasectomy. Then he can buy back his sperm if he is able to support it. Plus, the risks to a man undergoing vasectomy are small compared to the risks of a woman undergoing tubal ligation.

[Apple_Blossem]

Letting the person have 1-2 children would not be seen so much as a "terrible" injustice to the impovershed mother. The world let out an angry outcry when Mother Teresa supported sterilization of the poor in India - because it was only aimed at the poor. However, the world largely ignores the millions of hungry children being conceived - up to 17 children per woman -- that happens. We say that a woman has a choice: The baby is within her body and the pain it feels during abortion does not matter. Both of these are cruel: The mother should make a true sacrifice and opt for sterilization after 1 or perhaps two children. Its so easy to sacrifice the baby within you and let IT die - so that you may satisfy your carnal desires.

Perhaps if people only had the choice of having 1-2 children, they would be more picky on whom they mated with; and those who couldnt control themselves, well, that is what sterilization is for.

If our cats had one kitten at a time, there would not be as many problems. Spaying and neutering would not be such as issue. In fact, many of us would probably allow our cat to have 1 kitten before spaying. Overpopulation would not be an issue.

But in India, South America, Africa, etc, the majority of people have 8+ children. In africa, the average in some areas is about 17 kids. The girls begin giving birth before their 11th birthday (many hit puberty by age 9-10).
I met one south american family in Canada who had expected to make a better life for themselves - with their 9 children. They had not thought of day care prices for all of their children here in North America and had to return.

I have one friend who has a high IQ and who has had a surprise pregnancy. Thankgoodness, I think the child will be fine since the family is supportive. It largely depends on the situation. Abortion cannot be used as a bandaid and allowing a child to live in a home where it is not wanted is also a horribly cruel thing to do.
To sacrifice the mother's fertility is fair and just if she has not thought about how she is going to support and feed the new life she is bringing into the world. Fertility is a gift: You should lose the right if you cannot use it properly.

The same goes with males- any male who rapes a woman should be neutered. He is misusing his abilty to have children. If a child has a slingshot and hurts others with it, he loses that right to play with it.

Rape is a HUGE part of unwanted offspring in Africa. CNN stated that 75% of all Ethiopian children for the last 20 years were conceived by men kidnapping, beating and raping girls under 12 years old. If you think that is bad, hundreds of thousands of police and army members in several countries near the Congo systematically raped of about 500,000, last year, according to the Red Cross.

As for non-violent conceptions, I think if males conceive more than 2 children and cannot help support the first two, they also should be neutered. Paternity tests can now find out who are the fathers in the modern world.

[sandra]

Abortion is one way of dealing with the consequences and has nothing to do with someone's maturity or capability. It just apparently isn't your way. ;)

You might as well be telling someone not to have sex if in the same breath you expect them to keep a pregnancy because you have a problem with abortion. How is it any different? And what does someone else's sex life or pregnancy have to do with you at all?


I could say the same thing to you forthebirds, 'What does someone else's sex life or pregnancy have to do with you at all', but I thought this was a sensible debate on abortion.
We all have different views on this, I was just stating mine as you did yours. I respect your views and did not intend to come across as judgemental or holier than thou!
I think when we are communicating via this method some comments can come across as being a bit harsh when they weren't meant that way.
Hope you don't hate me too much. :D

[Veganbear]

I don't want children and I want sterilized. Most doctors won't do it unless you have children already, and are older (I'm only 25). I finally found a doctor 2 hours away who will sterilize me, but I have to save some $$ for it first.

Someone I know already has 2 kids and after the second she wanted sterilized, and the doctor ried to talk her out of it. She ended getting it done anyway.

Doctors won't sterilize everyone who wants to get it done.

Today my mom and I were driving through town and there were a bunch of people with anti-abortion signs on the sides of the road. I told my mom I would get an abortion. I think she got mad. Oh well.

[*PygmyGoat*]

I had a pregnancy terminated in my teens and it still upsets me today. It was very early on in the pregnancy but I did see women there who were in the late stages :( .

Looking at pictures of unborn babies in various stages of development, and also post-abortion pictures is VERY upsetting :( . I do think there should be much better sex education in schools, and that girls/women should be much more informed before deciding whether or not to abort (I was simply offered a termination :mad: ).

However, I also know how it feels to be a child who is pretty much UNloved by the mother, and it's a long sentence! :rolleyes: . There's just no good answer - I am pro-life but also pro-choice :confused: .

[sandra]

Hi Veganbear, I think doctors are reluctant to sterilize women of your age because you are still very young. Believe me I know you feel this way now but speaking from experience I know things can change.
I have 2 children and was 28yrs old when I had my second child, they were both planned and very much wanted but because of complications with both pregnancies I was sterilized after I had my second child. I regretted it when I got into my 30's. You just change as the years go on, I know you don't think you will now but believe me you do.
Just for a moment, consider what I'm saying, what if you do change your mind in 10yrs time and it's too late, you've been sterilized? There's nothing you can do. I hope if you do go ahead with it, you won't regret it, but I'm only speaking from someone who has went through it and lived to regret it.

[Veganbear]

Just for a moment, consider what I'm saying, what if you do change your mind in 10yrs time and it's too late, you've been sterilized? There's nothing you can do. I hope if you do go ahead with it, you won't regret it, but I'm only speaking from someone who has went through it and lived to regret it.

I wouldn't regret it. I can adopt. I don't feel the need to have biological children. I do not need to have something that's 'part of me'. An adopted child wouldn't be any less mine than if I had given birth to it myself. I see no need to create a baby when there's so many kids already out there that need families. I know that I do NOT want a baby. If someday my husband and I decide we want a kid, I have no problem adopting a kid (like 5 or 6 years old or something).

[focus]

Abortion thread? I'm staying out of this one. I will say that today I passed the biggest pro-life demonstration I've ever seen.

[Daffy]

A woman's body, a woman's choice.

[Apple_Blossem]

That's like saying, "My car, my choice."

Meaning: The moment another person sits down in my car, I have the right to swerve off the road and slam into a tree because you were in my car and it was my choice, and I cannot be held accountable because you were sitting in MY car..

I'm not pro-choice or pro-life... I'm pro-responsibility and pro-forethought.

[sandra]

That's a great analogy Apple Blossem. :)

[Apple_Blossem]

I lived in Quebec for two years, and that is the abortion capital of Canada. In Quebec, abortion is something almost bragged about. Almost everyone there is proud to tell about the abortion they had or about someone in their family who has had one. They also firmly believe that it is the woman's choice, and so they use it as often as they must, which seemed pretty frequently.

It seemed to me identical to the situation of my neighbor who let his cat breed every 3 months and then used the kill-shelter to destroy them because, he explained, he could not "control the situation."

[Windfall]

wow. i thought I wouldnt go into this discussion but now I feel I have to. I agree with Daffy - it has to be your own choice, but all the same it shouldnt be used as contraception. Although I dont understand how anyone would (I know that some do though) knowing just how terrible and traumatic an abortion can be. Also, if you don´t feel capable of having a child, not the right relationship, the finances or living arrangements that would work, a pregnancy can occur just the same. And then I tink one needs to have more than one choice.
I just don´t know this talk of pro-sterilization has just made me feel uneasy somehow.

[Apple_Blossem]

I'd never feel more comfortable killing a growing child/animal more than sterilizing the animal/human.

A mother is pretty cold if she puts her sex life as more important than her own child's life. Is sex that important - more than a baby's life? I think that says a lot about the person...

Truly love your baby before its born and control your own desires (sex) - so that you dont have to kill it when you have an accident (and accidents are NOT rare. Almost all of my friends have had one).

There are many, many people (most young people today) that take this a step further: They put their own desires for drugs, alcohol and sex over their future babies' needs as well. They get completely drunk, get high on drugs and THEN have sex... and thousands conceive. For the next 3 months, they continue with this lifestyle. 6 of my friends have done this. Because they put their own trivial desires first, they successfully conceived children with symptoms of Fetal-Alcohol Syndrome.

According to national statistics, 1:100 babies in the USA are born with glaring symptoms of Fetal-Alcohol Syndrome at present. There are thousands and thousands more with "just problems," but do not qualify for government aid. ------Tell me, Is this an example of "My body, my choice?"

This is the mother's choice and she had needs she felt she needed to be filled (getting drunk, getting high and having sex), and hopefully Baby doesnt get in the way. The US gov pays about 2billion a year to help children born with FAS live for the rest of their lives because they are so badly handicapped that they cannot function in society. Many of these offspring you will see bagging your groceries.

[forthebirds]

I could say the same thing to you forthebirds, 'What does someone else's sex life or pregnancy have to do with you at all', but I thought this was a sensible debate on abortion.
We all have different views on this, I was just stating mine as you did yours. I respect your views and did not intend to come across as judgemental or holier than thou!
I think when we are communicating via this method some comments can come across as being a bit harsh when they weren't meant that way.
Hope you don't hate me too much. :D


That's somewhat true, Sandra. I too have an opinion - that I would prefer people limiting reproduction because of the impact too many humans have on the planet. But I recognize that is not something you can legislate. I chose to live behind my convictions and did not have children. But I don't have any real moral issue with those that do, other than overpopulation. Obviously, like all animals, humans have a natural instinct to reproduce. So I don't blame others for succumbing to the urge. They were born that way ;)

And of course I don't hate you for your opinons silly! But I admit I don't like all the judgments others make about someone else's reason for having an abortion. The reason is irrelevant to anyone but the woman. So I really don't see what there is to debate, unless you are deciding what abortion means to you - and your personal values or body. And perhaps debating about what you might do if faced with that situation? Otherwise it has nothing to do with any of us, since it's not our body, life or situation.

Besides, it seems there is little actual debate or argument here about keeping abortion legal, and that it remains so is ultimately my priority regarding the issue, not whether others choose to judge women for their choices. Because regardless of whether some group has a morality problem with abortion or not, women will still get pregnant and seek abortions. So I think productive discussions about how to prevent pregnancies (other than telling someone to not have sex!!!) should be our focus, while acknowledging that even birth control is no guarantee.

What I do hate though are those who target abortion clinics to intimidate those seeking an abortion based on some religious or moral view they happen to hold and want to impose on others. Or those that set up phony family planning clinics to fool vulnerable women into thinking they are going to be counseled on all of their options, when in reality it is a scam to coerce them into keeping the pregnancy, because they have a personal agenda - and no actual interest in the woman, or the fetus. Those people piss me off beyond belief!!!

[sugarmouse]

I agree with Veganbear about the sterilization thing. I know I will have no desire to give birth to a child,if i change my mind about becoming a mtoher I can adopt.
I terminated a pregnancy using RU486 when i was 18,very early stages of pregnancy, and I have never regretted it,nor felt upset about it.
does that make me a horrible person?
by some peoples definition,probably.

[Apple_Blossem]

You know what? I think I've finally thought of a way to look at it :).

In my opinion, using the RU486 drug does not make you a horrible person -- I put it in the same light as people who eat meat --and I do NOT view them as horrible, just callous towards living things ;), but they do have their own priorities:

--There are people who put their sex life above the life of their growing baby. Knowing that they will decide that the baby will be killed when they have an accident.

--There are people who put the enjoyment of eating meat dinners (their dinner life ;)) above the lives and suffering of the animals that must be terminated for the meat-eating lifestyle.

Both have chosen their priorities in different areas of life.

[Apple_Blossem]

I think my last post was very logical...

Having sex even though you know that you will have to kill the baby if you get pregnant...

And eating meat... knowing that you have to kill an animal to get the juicy hamburger.

It's all about priorities and how much importance one puts on life.

Does anyone else agree??

[fiamma]

Sugarmouse, no I don't think it makes you a bad person. Not at all. Abortion is always going to be an issue that divides people. I strongly believe that if someone finds themselves pregnant and unable to give the child the upbringing it deserves, then it is better to terminate that pregnancy than bring a child into the world that they are unable to give a good life to.

Apple Blossem I think it's harsh to compare abortion to eating meat. I also don't think it's a case of "when" accidents will happen but "if". As far as I'm aware no birth control method is 100% safe, but no-one should have to put their sex life on hold because the birth control might fail and they might get pregnant. All women should have the right and the possibility to control what happens to their own body.

[Lilac Hamster]

Absolutely consistent Apple Blossem, if we as vegans have a true commitment to doing as little harm as possible to other living creatures, we should accept the same standards for ourselves about our sexual behaviour, as we do about meat-and-animal-product-eating. We should not take risks where the end result would be that we might end up killing a human embryo/foetus. Of course humans (including vegans) are not always consistent.

[Lilac Hamster]

Fiamma, even though you are vegan, do you support equally other people's choice to eat meat, the way you support their choice on abortion? If so then your position would probably be fairly consistent, but if you are offended by people eating meat but not by them having abortions, I would like to know why you would consider one form of killing is worse than another. Assuming you are not a reverse speciesist who puts animal life above human life. I don't think most vegans are really that much anti-human life or they would just kill themselves and be done with it!

What I am trying to get at is how people have some standards which they apply to themselves, and sometimes different standards they expect of others. As vegans we tend to expect more of ourselves than we do of others, so someone might be pro-choice (by that I mean against making abortion illegal) but might still be committed personally to not harming others so would not choose to get involved in abortion personally. Likewise you might be vegan yourself but not expect other people to live by the same standards.

Of course people who expect higher standards of others than they expect of themselves tend to get called hypocrites! Is there an equivalent word for people who expect hugely more of themselves than they do of others, like the opposite of hypocrites? That seems to be how most vegans are and might explain so many being pro-choice.

Also some vegans might be against cruelty involved in farming but not against killing per se (am I getting this right?), and this might be why some are pro-choice on abortion.

[fiamma]

I support peoples' CHOICE to eat meat although I wish they wouldn't do it. So as long as I have friends and family who are not vegan I will extend the same tolerance to them that I expect to be extended to me.

I can understand the pro-life agreement, but I don't agree with it. I simply can't equate a group of cells or an unborn foetus with a calf, a pig or a sheep who is conscious of the world around it and can feel pain and distress. A child has the right to be brought up with parents who care for him or her and can give that baby a good life. I don't feel that every baby should be carried to term regardless - everybody wants to adopt babies but how about the thousands of teenagers waiting for adoption or foster care?

I fully respect your viewpoint, Lesley, although I don't agree with it.

[Seaside]

I simply can't equate a group of cells or an unborn foetus with a calf, a pig or a sheep who is conscious of the world around it and can feel pain and distress.
Human beings don't have the right to equate any given life form with another. Everything that lives has an equal right to continue its own existence without having an artificial value imposed upon its life by another. Its not about deciding whether a human foetus has less value than a calf, or even whether a calf has less value than a sheep, or a roach, or a mosquito, or vice versa. Its about recognizing that everything that lives has a right to continue to live unmolested by humans.

The main trouble I have with the structure of most of the pro-choice arguments I see is that they can be and are used by omnis to justify their killing and use of animals. Omnis defend their decision to kill animals by arbitrarily defining them as exploitable resources. Pro-choice people defend their decision to abort children by attempting to arbitrarily define them as "groups of cells", "unable to survive outside the womb", etc. My question to both groups is who gave you the right to define what is alive, what deserves to live and what doesn't, which life has a greater value or right to exist than another? I'm personally not comfortable with making such judgements about any form of life. That's partly why I am a vegan. Pain, suffering, distress, consciousness, ability to survive, etc. do not factor into why I am against killing. I am against killing because it is wrong to deprive others of their Life.

[fiamma]

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't express myself very well. I don't want to come across as being a somehow superior being who has the right to say what can live and what can't. I just feel that every baby once it is born has the right to a good existence. And if there are no financial or emotional circumstances to support that then perhaps it's not fair on the child.