Abortion

[Seaside]

I didn't think you felt superior in any way fiamma. It wasn't you personally I was responding to, its the idea you expressed, which lots of people share, I'm sure. I just like to put out different ways of seeing things. I don't always do such a good job of expressing myself either. :o

[Apple_Blossem]

An example: Do we deny young teenagers, who are RAGING with hormones, the magnificent pleasure of racing their car through the parks where animals are roaming free (deer, elk) which can unexpectedly leap out across the road?

Do we allow the teenager who is dictated by hormones (just like the people who want to have sex) to put their desires above the lives that live in the park? (the babies that come along when doing this activity).

To my friends, I say, "Please, do not race down this road. Animals are KNOWN to scurry out, and since they live here, be respectful to them."

One of my friends races his car at night in parks at 120mph. When he hits an animal, he doesnt care. The "dumb animal" got in the way of his happiness. Hitting animals does not phase him, he does it every 1-2 months.

You KNOW that you are sooner or later going to hit and kill a deer (Or a baby while having sex). All of my friends have had babies while on the pill. You want the pleasure of racing the car/having sex even though it means eventually hitting an animal on the road or killing the baby.

[yasha]

pro-choice.

[Apple_Blossem]

7th month of pregnancy, baby can see light, recognize voices, grab things, perceive pain.

CNN broadcasted a stomach surgury on a pregnant woman - and it was caught on video - the baby saw the surgeon's hand and reached out and grabbed it.

This baby is about as smart as a "less than the average intelligent" cat... and I think all of us in here would have pity and think that a dumb cat is cute :P. And, imo, a dumb cat shouldnt be killed just because its dumb.

Who are we to draw the lines on what is dumb enough to let live or die?

And even if pregnant women were carrying a fully developed adult in their womb, with an adult brain, wouldn't they still be wanting the right to kill it because it is their body?

[sandra]

Hi Apple Blossem, leaving the 'abortion' question to one side, as I've already aired my views on that subject. Have you a particular cat in mind when you say 'dumb cat' or do you think all cats are 'dumb'? :)

[philfox]

i've read most of this thread,although not all. i've always been fascinated by abortion especially when people say, your veggie/vegan, so you shouldnt believe in abortion.
abortion isn't a simple debate, neither is that of eating animals. we do not preach to the lion not to eat the antelope. so the vegan aspect is different, we do not eat meat due to the fact we can live with out it, the torture of animals and the mass production and waste of millions (billions?) of lives each year, many of which wont make into a human stomach. i digress, but stay with me here...
veganism and abortion are always going to have strong oponents both sides.
but analysing veganism, the principles are strong and can be justified on many levels. however abortion is a difficult and complex one because of the many factors involved.
sex, for recreational purposes has been and always will be a part of live, heck even dolphins do it. people are going to get carried away and perhaps not use protection, as a uni student i was a bit of a slut and was so lucky i didnt get pregnant, which is why now, living with my boyfriend of 2 years, we make sure we have plenty of condoms. i was raped when i was 16. at the hospital i was screaming so loud that if i was pregnant they were to get the 'parasite' out of me! i was petrified that i had something from him inside of me, and cut myself with some glass i found in the toilet until the result came back negative. i cannot imagine being a woman who was raped and kept the child, but it does happen, more often than the abortion of said child.
ok, im digressing again, but if i had been pregnant i probably would have killed myself or done serious damage, and many preganant women may feel that way. is it worth it?
i do not agree with abortion late on, i want to make that clear. but in the first month or so i have no problem. rats and other animals can reabsorb their young if they sense danger, time not right to give birth. should we prevent them from doing it also?
i have taken the morning after pill, when condoms have split. if the egg had been fertilized, then would those few cells less than 73 hours old, have had more conscious recognition of themselves than bacteria, blood cells, or an egg before a period/sperm in the mouth :o
i dont think so, just the potential for life to develop. but everytime a man masterbates, sprem is wasted, every period a woman lets herself have waste a valuable, limited egg, should we stop those activities also?
regarding abortion later in pregnancy, it depends on how late. there should definately be a limit, but if the mothers life is in danger, or the child would be seriously deformed etc when born, this should be a reason for later pregnancy.
the world is over populated, and having family live on a large council estate i see the worst reasons for having children. girls, 15 and 16 have babies, because they think sex is cool, the thing to do, or have no aspirations other than getting a council house. do they stop at one? no, they have one with each partner increasing. i hate to be stereotypical here, but these children rarely have chance to get out of this cycle, so continue it themselves. living in a hideous trisha/jeremy kyle/ jerry springer cycle. if these kids where to have an education, not just a good sex ed, then perhaps those kids stand a chance, and children after them, but until then, maybe abortion would be the best way to go.
however, where i find abortion is an abused 'privillege' is the high flying women (im thinking the sex and the city types) who see a pregancy as something that gets in the way of a career. im all for the choice of the career, however, the termination of a pregnancy after a bit of fun disturbs me. years ago i thought i would do that for sure, but now, i think, even though we are so very careful, i couldnt have an abortion for those reasons, im old enough to accept that everytime i have sex (even with high quality condoms) i could potentially, no matter how unlikely, end up pregnant. so now i am very careful :D

sorry for the essay, but it will never be straight forward an issue. although like what was said at the beginning of this thread, the terms pro life and pro choice are badly chosen, i describe myself as choosing life, choosing the best life to lead whether it be for me or my future children

[Apple_Blossem]

When I say a 'dumb cat' -- I am referring (in general) to a cat that is not as intelligent as other cats. I have had many cats, and they were all my babies.
However, I did notice that some were more "gifted" than others in intelligence. One in particular seemed to do EVERYTHING wrong: he couldnt even get it straight that the can opener meant dinner time (and that is pretty slow ;)).

However, I loved them all equally. :)

My cat at present whom I found understands the word "no" and actually plays Hide and go Seek. When she wants to play, she opens kitchen cabinettes (by putting her front feet on the top of them and walking backwards to open them) and then quickly gets in them to hide from you (looking back to see if you saw her). Then she springs out at you when you find her.

Each cat is so unique in different areas. :) :)

[nibelwolf]

I thought long and hard before getting back to this old chestnut, but I just couldn't leave it alone:


I suppose my reasons for being vegan are just different from the reasons people like Apple_Blossem have for being vegan.

Some people go vegan because they feel all life must be protected. Fair enough, that's one way to look at it.

I went vegan because it is my sincere belief that other species, and, in fact, this planet, deserve to live and prosper.

Yes, there is a difference. And yes, this will most definitely mean a vast difference in how we perceive the issue of abortion.

In nature, it is absolutely impossible to protect all life. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it isn't going to work. In order for something to live, something else must die, or not be allowed to come into being. This is one of nature's laws. I don't love it, but it's there, and none of us can change it.

The question, then, is, who gets to live, and who doesn't get to?

The fact is, a mass extinction is taking place, and one of the reasons it's taking place is the overpopulation of one species, namely, ours. Everyday, between 74 and 150 species go extinct. This rate of extinction stands in direct relation to the growth of the human population. Every morning when I wake up, I wake knowing that while I was sleeping, species were wiped off the face of the planet forever because of my species' excesses, and it pains me greatly.

The planet is being polluted with all sorts of emissions, waste and sludge that we produce. This is just us. Of all species, only our waste material is not biodegradeable. The more of us there are, the more of it will be made. The more the Earth will be polluted. It's basic math.

More humans are born than they used to be, fewer babies die during childbirth, and our lives are artificially lengthened through modern medicine, we have no natural predators, no rivals for our territory, and the diseases which were meant to keep us in check, we've found cures for. All the things that keep animal populations in check don't apply to us anymore, or if they do, not to the extent that they're supposed to. So, we have to use that superior intelligence we pride ourselves on, and keep ourselves in check.

I believe something must be done about the overpopulation.

I don't just mean abortion. I mean education. I mean getting people to realize the impact each and every one of us has on this frail Earth. I mean that everybody knows and understands that there are too many of us.

While I think that birth control and sterilization are important and should be used as much as possible (simply because the process of abortion can be very traumatizing on the mother, and because it's gotten more and more dangerous thanks to militant, anti-choice activists), I think abortion, as it stands against the tide of the population boom, is a good choice. Of course I think it's better to have the abortion early, before the baby can truly develop. It would be great if the number of abortions were reduced by birth control and sterilizations, but I don't see abortion itself as a bad or selfish thing.

Many have called me a misanthrope, and maybe that's true, if looked at from a speciest point of view. I certainly think of humans as less important than they think themselves to be. As enlightened as many are when it comes to the environment and animal rights, most people can't shake their anthropocentricity. I do not share this delusion. I think the overpopulation of any species is a bad thing. Swarms of mice, locusts, or humans, they all do damage, and if we pride ourselves on power and intelligence, where is our sense of noblesse oblige?

In the situation of overpopulation, many animals can will their bodies to abort pregnancies. This is a biological fact. We've just either long forgotten or never learned how it's done. While I don't think everything that occurs in nature is automatically good or kind, I think the fact that abortion does occur in nature shows us that it's part of the natural way of maintaining balance.

And, since I am vegan to offer other living things and the very planet a little more space to live in, it is my personal opinion that having an abortion and eating meat are not similar at all, and I think it's childish to compare the two. I think it's naive to claim that having an abortion is innately selfish. Some people may have it for selfish reasons, some may have it for reasons that aren't selfish, but then, people do all sorts of things out of different motives than others; to me, it doesn't make a difference. The end result, which is, simply, just a minimal reduction in the number of humans on the planet, is a good one to me.

To me, every baby born will grow up to be an adult that will most certainly create waste that will kill nature and wildlife, and may or may not be a meat-eater, which will result in the slaughter of thousands of animals for that person's sake.

In my opinion, no species should spread at the cost of hundreds of others, and no species should wreck the homes of other species to make more room for themselves on the scale as humanity is doing it.

That is why I am for abortion.

No, not many people, even on this forum, will agree with me here, but this is just how I see it.

[philfox]

nibelwolf, well said and eloquently put.

[Apple_Blossem]

Bravo, NibelWolf :)

Your point of view is very, very interesting.

Although I still stand for using self-control -- that is an ideal that (for the entire human race) is impossible. That is like telling Americans who are surrounded by candy to never pick up one piece of candy during their entire life :P.

However, I love your perspective on it. Its very well thoughtout :) :) One of the best I've heard :)

[nibelwolf]

Thanks :)

[Apple_Blossem]

Can I add you to my buddy list? :P

[howdawg]

I was going to add to this thread, but NibelWolf has said it all.. Nicely done!

[sandra]

Hi again Apple Blossem, I'm glad you don't think all cats are dumb:)
I suppose they're just like people, some are dumb and some are less dumb:D
Your little cat that hides in the cupboards is adorable! My cats all have very different personalities, one can turn the water tap in the bathroom on, one can open all the doors so we've had to put locks on the doors, and one likes watching snooker on tv.
Sorry, this thread is about abortion, just read my previous posts to get my views on that.:D

[nibelwolf]

Thanks, howdawg! Apple_Blossem, you can add me if you want, nobody's stopping you, but I'm not on this website often so I don't think there'd be much of a point to it.

[nibelwolf]

Although I still stand for using self-control -- that is an ideal that (for the entire human race) is impossible. That is like telling Americans who are surrounded by candy to never pick up one piece of candy during their entire life :P.

Well, it's like I said, I think if people smartened up and got sterilized or used more than one form of reliable birth control, it'd be a better situation. Abortion is never an ideal solution and I sincerely doubt that it's a pleasant experience for anyone who gets it done. But it's the best we have to stem the tide, and I definitely prefer abortion over nature's other forms of population control, like plagues and natural disasters.

And I don't think Americans are the only ones who will succumb to the temptation, either ;)

[Apple_Blossem]

Geeze, yes it is better than natural disasters. There is one city in Kenya that is growing at a rate of 600,000 people per year. They sleep on the streets, in their own sewage and mud and in cardboard boxes, but the pop continues to grow at an exponential rate

I know in china, sterilizations have been enforced. About 10ish years ago, China sterilized several towns in Tibet - women who had had more than 3 children. I was completely AGAINST this. Although this is brutal, once I started studying WHY they did it... I realized that the country was populating so fast that it couldn't sustain all of its own needs. Millions of people were going to be out of food. Sterilizations and abortions were manditory. Its obvious they were trying to do their best from saving the rest of the country from starvation because of overpopulation.

I think I'm for sterilization - Remember to Spay & Neuter ;)

----------------------------------------------
It sounds like your cats are very cute :)

The cat that seemed less intelligent than other cats had many problems as well --- I learned the hard way NOT to let kittens eat dog food even if they craved it. I was a child when I had him as a kitten, and he would litterally FIGHT for the dogfood :P So i'd let him eat it with the dogs 1/4th of the time.

So anyone who is reading this: NEVER let your growing kitten eat dogfood... it lacks an essential nutrient for their body to grow properly and their brain to grow normally.

It litterally made him... mentally handicapped in many way... sometimes it seemed on the verge of retardation :(.

[sugarmouse]

I too agree with Nibelwolf.Most humans have a superiority complex that is completely unjustified.
HoweverI am so against humankind thatI am biased in this debate...I care about animals , and not people.

I am also wondering how many contributers to this thread have had an abortion.

[nibelwolf]

I'm biased the same way, Sugarmouse! I have to say I like individual people but humankind in general I don't have a very high opinion of, mostly just because humankind hasn't done much to deserve a high opinion :P (Like I said, some individuals have done wonderful things, but there's not enough of such individuals.) But I'll stick around my fellow humans anyway, because there's nothing better to do, and who knows, maybe the 100th monkey thing will kick in someday (though I'm not holding my breath).

As for the abortion thing, no, I personally haven't had one.

[annabanana]

I think that in many cases abortions are too easily obtained and not enough thought is given as to whether having the baby is actually a viable option.

the spiritual/religous/scientific argument over whether it is a person or just a bunch of cells, does not detract from the fact that abortion denies another human their right to life.

[sugarmouse]

Here it is

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Member_Advice_on_Termination_of_Pregnancy__Review_ 5639360

[veganavenger]

My God. I really feel for you, having to go through that at 18. Your ex sounds like a right nasty piece of work, I've been out with similar. I can understand why you didn't want to bear his children! Well done for coping so well with it, and for getting out of the situation afterwards!

*ugs*

[sugarmouse]

Thankyou xxx

[veganlinda]

I think abortion is one of those areas that is easy to theorise about but when you are in the position where you have to make that choice things tend to be very complex and not so black and white.

I had a pregnancy terminated in my twenties when you could say that I was a responsible adult. It was from an abusive relationship, I had no income being at college, no home, living in rented accomodation, no supportive family and at the time I did not feel that I could go through with the pregnancy. My mother had not coped at all well as a parent within the stability of a relationship with a home and income and so I did not want to become an emotionally disturbed parent bringing a child into an uncertain world where I would be so stressed that I might make the childs life hell.

I am very maternal but don't have children and now can't have any but even though I would dearly have loved to have been a parent I cannot retrospectively say that I made the wrong decision. I could not have cared for that child, I would have had to find a new home, leave my course and bring the child up on my own with little or no support emotionally or financially and I was at the end of an abusive relationship so was fairly emotionally unstable.

I don't think that it should be an easy choice to make and there should be education as to exactly what it entails and the emotional distress it can cause but I do think there should be the choice.

[Ruth]

I don't understand why people can't just give their babies up for adoption. That way, the baby gets to live but doesn't have a bad life because the mother is unfit, and the mother can carry on with whatever she wants to do without the burden of a baby.

If the mother will die should the baby be born, I make an exception, however wrong that is. Then you're acting to save a life, not take one.

But other than that, I'm militant about it.
:)