Abortion

[Blue moon]

Woe betide anyone who ever tries to tell me what to do with my body!

No way I'd put myself through pregnancy & labour necessary for adoption, I'll carry on with whatever I want to do with my body all the time thank you. Women are not breeding machines.

[sandra]

At the risk of telling you what to do with your body Blue moon.............maybe women should think more carefully about the possible consequences of having sex before they embark on it!
If they are not 'ready' for the possibility of having a child then in my opinion they are not ready to have sex.
I'm not saying they should only have sex to reproduce, I am saying though that I think a lot of women (not all of course) view termination as a sort of contraceptive! (I do know there are special cases here so don't chew my head off!) :)
I agree with Ruth :)

[talitha]

I agree with Ruth :)

Me too Sandra.

I am completely at a loss to understand how people who care so passionately about cruelty to animals can think it acceptable to kill unborn children.

[harpy]

Pregnancy is not a "just" thing - from what I've read your body and mind get ready for the birth so that giving up the resultant baby for adoption is not an easy thing for most people to do? And life isn't necessarily easy for the mother OR the adopted child afterwards.

I don't like the idea of abortion and feel it should be made easy for people to keep pregnancies if they feel able to. However I know one or two people who've had abortions after contraceptive failure, and they didn't take the decision lightly at all.

In theory it may be reasonable to say people shouldn't have sex unless they are "ready" for parenthood but in practice, how are you going to stop them - and do you have the right? Some people would never be allowed to have sex at that rate.

[Blue moon]

I'm not saying abortions should be like contraception, but nothing is fail safe and it's harsh to punish a woman for a mistake. What a punishment too, not just a slapped wrist is it, pregnancy & labour even with the adoption route!

In my humble opinion, unborns are not children. I can't get emotional about a group of cells which may (or may not) develop into a sentient life which can exist outside of the host. Certainly there's no way I'd put that above the rights of a woman.

I really don't see any connection between that and live animals, I've always thought it strange when people tell me I should be anti-abortion 'cause I'm vegan:confused:

[sandra]

I suppose it comes down to 'whose rights' we are most concerned about...........the adult or the unborn baby.
To me as a vegan, I respect ALL life and therefore terminating a baby (who because it is only a 'bunch of cells' people feel it's ok to destroy) goes against my beliefs. Don't forget we were all 'a bunch of cells' once.

[Blue moon]

It's an emotive topic isn't it. That's why it should always be the choice of the woman concerned. I get so angry at protestors outside of clinics! And I get very uncomfortable when people proppose making it illegal again, or even making it harder for woman to have a termination.

[sandra]

Yes, it is emotive............that's why I think I'll now leave this discussion, I've been here before and sometimes it's like going round in circles! :)

[sugarmouse]

I somtimes feel I am not a vegan by definition, because I do not respect human life, and becauseI believe in abortion.

[snivelingchild]

To put another view on the subject: I've never felt that adoption was such a wonderful alternative to abortion. In addition to adding to an over-populated world, being a ward of the state does not ensure a future better than an "un-fit" or "un-willing" mother. I've known many friends growing up who lived in group state homes. Many more of the homes are very tragically unsuitable and filled with unjutices than people think. I've known some situations that were on the edge of abuse, and one that was. Since a very small minority of children get adopted, you have to consider that they will most likely live in a state institution until 18. Where I grew up, I only actually knew one girl who lived in a good home situation. There are alot of inherent problems and common psychosis created in a parent-less situation.

I consider adoption a viable option when an adoptive family can be chosen prior to birth, which a friend of mine did, but this is a rare situation, and many times this leads to "buying white babies" situations since mother's are usually compensated or "given essentials for a healthy birth". This sometimes even includes free rent, free food, free cable TV, and many of these women go through this process repeatedly.

In short: adoption isn't an easy out; especially with the very invasive process of getting t the birth, as mentioned before

Related story on adoptive birth:
My mother-in-law, when she was 19, became pregnant. She wanted to continue with her college and definately did not want to raise a child at that time. Her very strict religious parents would not allow her the abortion she wanted, and to save family embarrasment, shipped her off to a different town for nine months where she was FORBIDDEN to contact any friends, or talk to any people where she was. She had to stay in her room, and abandon her studies for a year, and forget everyone she knew. Eventually, she gave birth and the child was put up for adoption. This was before current adoption laws and she was unable to find out anything about her child in later years. I've read her journals from that time. It was nothing but a large time of sadness for her, having to go through all that alone, having to attach so much to that child, and then having them removed after giving birth. Once they took the child away (without letting her hold it or know the sex) that was it. There was no turning back even though her feeling had changed greatly, having already bonded.

This story was not meant as a "this is why I'm right" but merely as an example of one of many possibilities.

[BlackCats]

I am pro-choice as I believe that a woman should never be legally forced to carry a being inside her own body if there is a reason she does not wish to (early on in the pregnancy that is). I think abortion should be legal without a doubt.

I think that the "ball of cells" is life, but I think this is very grey area and I would not think that just because you are vegan it would mean you are anti-abortion. I think the mental and physical suffering of the girl/woman forced to carry the baby outweighs the suffering of the foetus. In my view the ethical implications are very different.

I do think the sexual education of young people should be improved and I think it's brilliant that contraception such as morning after pill is more widely available.

I think though some women (I have met one) use abortion as a method of contraception, which I find uncomfortable. I think people take pregnancy and parenthood too lightly in general and also that men often abdicate responsibility for children when they are here, but that's another subject!

Personally I would be disappointed with myself if I ever had an abortion, but I think if I got raped and got pregnant I would be very likely to have one.

I am reading through some other's views and I can understand the anti-abortion viewpoint and understand how abortion can be seen as murder but it just isn't my opinion.

This sounds ridiculously judgemental reading through it but I will post it anyway!

[snivelingchild]

Also, this probably would not matter to some people: I have always been a supporter of being able to choose the fate of a fetus (since choosing life INHERENTLY relies on the sacrifice of the other party, unlike choosing to not eat meat; I don't consider taste a sacrifice), but since studying biology and finding out a fetus only has as much as a one in three chance of imbedding in the uterine wall anyway, I've come to think of abortion as not being much different than when our bodies refuse to attach a fetus in the first place, or when our bodies reject said fetus.

A deer, given the conditions not friendly to raising child (i.e. lack of food) can end the life of a fetus and reabsorb the nutrients. I've always wondered what would happen of people could do this, of if we found out this mechanism was somehow mentally activated on deer. Or if it would make a difference if it was.

[talitha]

Since a very small minority of children get adopted, you have to consider that they will most likely live in a state institution until 18.

Maybe things are different in the states but in the UK there is a huge waiting list for babies to adopt and a baby would certainly not end up in the care system long term.

I've worked with children in care and know that this is not a good option. But I'm not sure they would have prefered never to have been born. I think it comes back to what Sandra says about accepting the consequences of your actions when you decide to have sex.

[snivelingchild]

But I'm not sure they would have prefered never to have been born.

Not a point I would ever make. Just a thing to consider. There is also a difference in the number of people who want a healthy white baby, and those who will adopt any child.
Also, sex isn't something you can avoid your entire life if you don't ever want children. (well, you can, but what's the point in living if your going to aviod what you long to do forever) Just think of the poor bloke who was the one in 3000 who's vasectomy reversed itself. Plus, surgery is expensive, and I'm not gonna live like a priest with my husband until I'm rich.

[BlackCats]

Talitha - I have worked with kids that have been in care as well and I think the name "care" should be changed as it does not reflect the treatment they receive.

I wonder though what would you think in the case of rape/ sexual abuse of a young girl/ woman which could result in a pregnancy?
The consequence of the sexual act could not have been anticipated if it was forced upon them?

[talitha]

Aphrodite,

Don't get me wrong I have nothing but empathy for someone in that sort of situation. However, I think it's a case of 'hard cases make bad laws' and I don't believe even that justifies killing an innocent human being.
In any case - how often does this happen? It must be the tiniest fraction of the hundreds of thousands of abortions carried out each year in the UK alone.

[Heartsease]

I can not imagine aborting a child conceived through rape. The child was not responsible.

I'm not really sitting on the fence here...my nephew was born VERY early...infact when my sister's waters broke the hospital staff offered her an abortion. She refused and my nephew is a very cute bubby just starting to walk.

[BlackCats]

Like I said earlier, I do have some sympathy with the anti-abortion viewpoint but I do not believe the law should force a woman to carry a child if she does not wish to.
I don't think any other person's opinion carries more weight than the pregnant woman involved and her wishes should be respected.

In a perfect world there would be no unwanted pregnancies I suppose.

[harpy]

Like I said earlier, I do have some sympathy with the anti-abortion viewpoint but I do not believe the law should force a woman to carry a child if she does not wish to.

I agree, and anyway such laws don't work. Before it was legalised in the UK there were illegal abortions and many women died from them.

It still happens in some parts of the world - there are some WHO stats on the Wikipedia entry "Unsafe abortion".

[talitha]

And people die from taking illegal drugs that have been badly prepared. I don't think that's an argument for legalisation...

[Poison Ivy]

And people die from taking illegal drugs that have been badly prepared. I don't think that's an argument for legalisation...

But it could be....but that would be a whole other thread.:);)

[harpy]

Yes, I agree - the belief that one shouldn't try to force a woman to carry a child when she doesn't want to is a more powerful argument. But the fact that anti-abortion laws have proved to cause a huge amount of suffering is also a consideration, for me.

To repeat what I've probably said earlier in the thread, changing society so that (a) people avoid unwanted pregnancy as far as possible, and (b) it's as easy as possible to carry an unintended pregnancy to term, is the best we can do, IMO. Coercion is wrong and doesn't work.

[sugarmouse]

My abortion made me very very poorly.

[dreama]

This planet is way, way overpopulated as it is. If only those humans who actually wanted children were having children, there would still be too many humans around. So, why on earth should anyone be forcing women who don't want children to have children is beyond me... :rolleyes:

I agree with the population problem but I'm strongly pro life, but we arn't forcing anyone to have a baby. They have 3 choices:

1. Have a hysterectomy. Except you will find some doctors make difficulties although my friend had one after her 4th child so it isn't impossible. It does seem odd though that it is easier for woman to take an irresponsible choice: Abortion but not a responsible one in having a hysterectomy to prevent having an abortion in the first place.

2. Use all 3 forms of contriception. The pill and the condom then after sex examine the condom. If it has split use the morning after pill. I don't believe anyone would get pregnant using all these methods together.

3. Don't have sex at all.

[xrodolfox]

I think that abortion should always be legal and affordable. It should never be the first option, and I think it rarely is.