Abortion

[Maisiepaisie]

i think it depends a lot on when a foetus becomes a person with rights - is it at conception, at 8 weeks of pregnancy, 20 weeks, etc?..........
I would say at 12 weeks into the pregnancy. I read somewhere that before then, the foetus doesn't have a developed central nervous system so is not self aware. This is why I feel that we should set the limit for abortion at 12 weeks. This gives the mother almost 3 months to realise she's pregnant which should be plenty of time. I don't agree with abortion any later than 12 weeks.

[veggiemaya]

Shrapnel, just curious...are you a male? Also, what about the concept of a baby being born when it is completely unwanted..to a woman or couple who doesn't have the means to support it...or maybe who lives in a situation that would be unstable for a baby/child to be raised in. I see it all too often when a child is being neglected or verbally abused..or physically abused, by a parent that clearly does not want to be bothered. The repercussions of that kind of childhood could and will have a lasting negative impact. I understand that they should be thinking of this and taking precautions before they wind up getting pregnant, but that obviously doesn't always happen so..
I truly think that there is just too broad of a spectrum of situations for it to be deemed as right or wrong according to a person or people who are completely uninvolved.

[snivelingchild]

Though, I also think in that situation there should be an additional crime, to charge the rapist with, since besides the act of rape, the rapist also is taking control of the woman’s body in forcing the baby upon her

That's all well and fine for the 10, maybe 15% of reported rapes that end up in convictions, where it is estimates than fewer than one-third of rapes are even reported.

There are many instances where carrying a child would be cruel and unusual punishment for a mother. In addition to the effect it may have on her social life (she could be married with kids, having to raise this child among them), career (might not be able to work manual labor, might not have income otherwise), financial situation (the cost of even birthing a child can be GINORMOUS), what if the person is mentally handicapped or unstable?

What if they awaken pregnant one day, flip out, and stab themselves because voices in their head tell them it's satan? Keep them in a doped up sleep for nine months? I have a bad pregnancy phobia, and cannot even stand looking at a woman's pregnant belly (although now that I've watched natural birthing that isn't as dreadful, it's getting better). I can't imagine what I'd do under the stress of seeing myself like that.

Someone I know just had a tubal pregnancy, what else is to be done there? Is the physical health of a women enough of a reason to consider abortion, and mental and social and financial health not? Or shall a woman give up her life?

Does this pro-life outlook extend to intestinal worms, fleas, termites, an animal killing you? Most vegans agree that unnecessary killing is bad, but protecting your life is good. Therefore, on a vegan outlook, abortion when your life is at risk would follow suit. Going deeper: Fleas are rarely fatal, but a horrible inconvenience. An unwanted pregnancy could be similar. I kill fleas, because I deem it a necessity. Abortion can be too.

Yes sterilization is a good option if you have medical care, and is MUCH more expensive than a plan B pill. But that is permanent, and some people could not carry a child at 15, but can at 35.

I'm tempted to say that I also don't believe an abortion should be performed after 3 months, unless a medical emergency, but there shouldn't be a number restriction on an individual circumstance that varies widely.

[Klytemnest]

Well in that case she should be allowed to choose to be sterialized. I was denied that choice so if I'm ever raped again and become pregnant as a result I'd just have to have the baby as abortion is totally against my beliefs.

Why is it we allow mothers to murder their babies yet we don't allow them the choice to have sterialization on demand? This is something I really don't understand. Along with a lot of other hollow clieches that the pro abortion lot come up with such as "The woman's right to do what she wants with her body".

First of all its not always the woman who chooses to abort. Some women experience a lot of pressure from their families or boyfriends who don't want a baby. I read about the case of a woman who hanged herself after aborting because she'd been presurized into it and not given adequate councilling. People will do things under pressure that they really don't want to. They suffer a lot as a result.

Then there is the thing about ones own body. I have not been granted the right to be sterialized because I don't want any children. If someone wanted to have an eye or a limb removed that choice would also be denied them. I've even been denied the choice to donate blood. Not because there is anything wrong with my blood but because I've got petit mal epilepsy. So the process may cause me to have a seizure. I'd also like to be a live kidney doner if they will let me.

The final thing is that the unborn baby is not really part of a woman's body. The baby is just attached to the mother by the cord a way of getting fed.

So altogether it's complete nonsense and I know people who say they believe in a woman's right but if you ask them about other rights then it's a differant story altogether. Like they go all mental about a woman with BIID who wishes to amputate both her legs yet they are happy for a woman to commit murder. It defeats logic as far as I am concerned. I think people should have the right to be who they really are wether it be male, female or disabled, even if it involves chopping bits off but nobody has the right to commit murder.

I am in complete agreement with Veggie4life.

I am also in agreement with you that we should have the right to do with our bodies as we wish. I think you should have the right to be sterilized if you so desire. It's your body, it's your life - you should be in charge of them, not the government.

I must disagree with you when you say that abortion is murder. Murder is the unjustified killing of a person. Most abortions do not kill a "baby", it does not kill a "person." What is killed is an insensate mass of cells. At that point in the development of the fetus, there is no awareness, no sensation, no pain. Is it alive? Sure. So are all the cells we kill when we brush our teeth. So that is not really the issue. The issue is, is it a person, when does personhood begin.

And yes, technically the fetus is not a "part" of the woman's body. But her body is being used as an incubator. So, if we are the owners of our bodies and the only ones with the right to decide what should be done to them, then a woman should have the right to refuse to carry the fetus. I don't think it should be a matter of whim, but ultimately if a woman does not want to continue to carry a fetus, she should not be forced to do so.

Again, I don't think the decision to have an abortion should be done lightly and frivolously. I would personally prefer that it be avoided. But the decision must be with the woman whose body is affected - because we are the owners of our bodies and lives.

Rami

[Klytemnest]

I would say at 12 weeks into the pregnancy. I read somewhere that before then, the foetus doesn't have a developed central nervous system so is not self aware. This is why I feel that we should set the limit for abortion at 12 weeks. This gives the mother almost 3 months to realise she's pregnant which should be plenty of time. I don't agree with abortion any later than 12 weeks.

That is my understanding as well.

But even if the fetus is self-aware and is capable of feeling pain, this does not change the fact that it is occupying someone else's body. And if we want to live in a world in which we are owners of our own bodies and no one else can dictate what we are to do with them, then ultimately the woman has the right to refuse to continue to carry the fetus.

Perhaps as science advances, fetuses, even very young ones, will be viable outside the body of a woman, so their destruction will not be unavoidable.

Rami

[Shrapnel]

Shrapnel, just curious...are you a male? Also, what about the concept of a baby being born when it is completely unwanted..to a woman or couple who doesn't have the means to support it...or maybe who lives in a situation that would be unstable for a baby/child to be raised in. I see it all too often when a child is being neglected or verbally abused..or physically abused, by a parent that clearly does not want to be bothered. The repercussions of that kind of childhood could and will have a lasting negative impact. I understand that they should be thinking of this and taking precautions before they wind up getting pregnant, but that obviously doesn't always happen so..
I truly think that there is just too broad of a spectrum of situations for it to be deemed as right or wrong according to a person or people who are completely uninvolved.
Yeah, I am (I'm just curious, why do you ask?).

And you have some good points. A child born into an unloving environment will have a poor childhood (though adoption would be one solution), but I would think it's better to give the child a chance at a good life than no chance at all. I knew some friends who had poor family lives, parents who couldn't take care of them, that sort of thing. They weren't the best of childhoods, but till turned out to have good lives in the end. Not that way with everyone, but still, I wouldn't want to deprive someone of the chance of it happening.

And I get your point; I've never had a child, nor have I gotten anyone pregnant (though, I never had sex without accepting the chance that the contraception could fail, and I would need to take responsibility. The chance was low, but still there). Still, I think it's possible to have an opinion even if I'm not personally involved, and we do it often enough for other things (I can say people shouldn't be allowed to rape, even though no one I know personally has ever been involved in rape, or that it's wrong to kill animals for meat even though I'm not in the meat industry, for example).

[emzy1985]

Me too. And in some cases, forced:D;)

Hehe that's why I love you! :D

I've always lived my life by the principle that if something is conciously living ie can feel pain, has brain function etc then it should be treated with respect. I think abortion can be justified at a very early stage, when the unborn is just a ball of cells. However I don't believe that any thing after that should be aborted. Like many vegans will say, "it is not our right to decide what lives and what dies." I understand that if you are raped and become pregnant that you won't want to keep the baby. So get an abortion/morning after pill asap. If you get pregnant because you didn't use protection and don't want the baby and then you don't find out until you are 20weeks gone.....give birth and give the child up for adoption. Also feelings change when you give birth. Maybe a maternal instinct could kick in. I know this principle could cause problems, but there are loads of couples out there who can't have children and are looking for babies. Older children is completely different. Often they are taken away from their family or given up later. It is rare that a baby remains unadopted. People want babies beause they can make them their own. Older children can come with a list of problems.

My views may be quite controversial. However I am in a position to say these things because I am not having sex with someone who could impregnate me, although I could be raped. The first thing I would do would be to get the morning after pill and a STD test.

[cobweb]

it's such a difficult one.

what about a situation where a woman is married and has sex with someone other than her partner, uses contraception that fails, and ends up pregnant. This is the kind of situation that has potentially explosive effects on all concerned, and does happen - often. Should we judge that person?. I'm not saying that abortion should be an automatic outcome of that type of scenario, but i am pointing out that love/emotions muddy the waters.

It's horrible to think of an 'innocent' unborn baby being 'killed'/denied the right to life, it's also awful to think of a baby born in circumstances that might mean he/she is treated poorly by his/her parents.

And as the mother is the one who has to carry the baby for 9 months inside her, feed and nurture that baby, give up her freedom and a lot of her choices for that baby, yes, she must be the one who decides what to do.

[treehugga]

I believe it's choice.

I see many mothers unable to take care of their children in my work and those children have appalling lives.

I have also seen women distressed years later at their decision to terminate a pregnancy.

History has shown the horror of when choice is taken away. I don't really want to see that repeated.

We live individual lives and are each responsible for them.

[cobweb]

that's a very good post, treehugga. I have been there, sone it, still bear the mental scars but i still believe in choice. Afterall babies don't have the choice to be born, do they?. If some of them knew what was round the corner they might not be very enthusiastic (sorry if that sounds flippant, it's not meant that way).

[emzy1985]

So if the woman had the choice to have an abortion at 30 weeks, would that be ok?

I'm not being shitty but if we are discussing choice........

[cobweb]

i think it would depend on the reasons, emzy, honestly i do - but in my own opinion there aren't many (if any) valid reasons for aborting that late, no. Although i believe in choice, i also believe in responsibility for one's own actions, and that includes making heavy duty decisions of this nature (that also potentially affect others) very early on in the proceedings.

Personally speaking, i would like to see the general limit for abortions brought down to 16 weeks.

i had a termination as a teenager at 9 weeks (the soonest i could) - i wasn't sure about it though, and have always regretted it. I was actually pushed into it by a horrible doctor and an immature boyfriend. I could never do it again but i don't believe that going through with a pregnancy is always in the best interests of the child.

[emzy1985]

Ah you see I thought you were saying that abortions can happen anytime. It is someones choice. I think you need a limit because not everyone is educated on the matter of infant survival outside the womb...especially not 13/14 year old mothers :(

I would like the limit to be brought down to around ten weeks tbh

[cobweb]

yeah, the trouble with that is the NHS aren't lightning quick with getting them done and not everyone can afford to go private (i paid almost £300 20 years ago).

i say what i say about abortion but in the cold light of day when i actually think about the whole procedure i have to admit it makes me feel physically sick. I wonder about the doctors who perform them every day.......

[Maisiepaisie]

So if the woman had the choice to have an abortion at 30 weeks, would that be ok?
The baby could very likely survive without the mother at that age. I think the youngest premature baby to survive was born at around 23 weeks. So I would say definately no, that would not be ok.

I don't really understand how some women can be pregnant and not know for a few months. I knew within 2-4 weeks. Your body just feels different.

[snivelingchild]

So if the woman had the choice to have an abortion at 30 weeks, would that be ok?

I'm not being shitty but if we are discussing choice........

I don't believe there should be a LAW in place, because even if it says " no abortions after X time unless for health reasons" because some medical situations are tricky and fuzzy, and I think the situations are determined individually.

In the US at least, a doctor will refuse to perform an abortion after 3 months unless the pregnancy would cause serious complications or death or something. I think doctors should be the deciding factor along with the patients here, and I think they keep guidelines better than a law would. What I'm saying is, I don't think we have a problem with late-term abortions being done for stupid reasons, unless you have the opinion that a mother should risk her life to give birth.

[cobweb]

apparently something like 89% of abortions are performed within the first trimester.

[Frank]

Pro life.

Think if your parents had aborted you?

You would not have turned out to be a sensitive person fighting for the rights of those less fortunate.

I've known women go for the abortion and get off the table before the deed.

Those children are now doctors/nurses - saving peoples lives etc.

What if Martin Luther King/Winston Churchill/Jesus/Mohammed etc etc etc had been aborted? Choose who you actually like in life. The answer is the same.

I've known a nice lady who was raped and because of her religion would/could not abort. She never stopped being devoted to her son. For he had never committed a sin to her.

Britain bins about 530* children a day. That's a terrible waste.

Have women and men not learnt anything about contraception, safe sex etc?

Yes - a women has pro-choice at the end of the day. Put her in a room full of children who's parents changed their minds and see the abortion figure drop.

*Government figures showed 193,737 women in England and Wales had an abortion in 2006.


NB - Think if Korn had been aborted. You would not have been able to post anything on this forum.

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm arguing for the life that wants to share what we have but is never given the chance.

We were given the chance. Why not give it to someone else?

We are making a poll of a womans choice:
(separate thread: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20152 ).

But flip the coin and give the same choice to the aborted.

No one stands up for them.

Or ask 100 children at aged 5 if they would have preferred to have been aborted. Strangely enough, not many.

[indianvegan]

Very well said, Frank. Impressive.

[**Ames**]

In theory I am against abortion, but I have to say I am pro-choice because I do not believe that in all situtations abortion is cut and dry 'wrong': there are always other factors that come into it.

Someone I know was raped at the age of 15, she got pregnant and had the baby aborted. I know it's a cliche but it's very true. By not having the choice of abortion, the girl would have been forced to carry that child for 9 months, have to tell everyone why she was pregnant, and had to deal with the emotional upheaval of having the baby adopted after childbirth, not to mention the trauma related to being raped. Not to mention the childs own mental state should he/she ever discover where they came from. I believe that sometimes it is more important to preserve the life that is already here, in this case the girl . . . although I suppose this opens the 'when does life begin' arguement.

I admit that not all abortions are because of reasons as drastic and some women do abuse the facility by using it as birth control, but if abortion is deemed 'wrong' it is depriving women that NEED abortions for health reasons be they mental or physical . . .

Not to mention that should abortion be made ilegall I am sure a lot of people would still get it done, therefore risking their lives in backstreet operations. Perhaps if abortions were less easy to obtain. But they should certainly not be made illegal, nor can they always be labelled 'wrong'.

Although I agree with what Frank says in many ways, and in theory I would like to stand up and say the same, I do not believe that what he says is always the case, and I can't help but think it is slightly niave. Sorry.

[bryzee86]

Personally, I wouldn't care less if I had been aborted, and here's why: I wouldn't exist! Why should I care if I exist or don't.

[Risker]

Personally, I wouldn't care less if I had been aborted, and here's why: I wouldn't exist! Why should I care if I exist or don't.

I agree


What if Martin Luther King/Winston Churchill/Jesus/Mohammed etc etc etc had been aborted? Choose who you actually like in life. The answer is the same.


The world might be very different if any/all of these people had been aborted, however we'd have been brought up in a world without them so we wouldn't know any different. 'What if' questions are really quite meaningless imho, but if you're going to ask them then you should also consider 'what if' some of the more unpleasant characters from history had been aborted?

[puffin]

As i said before im 50/50 but i personally would never have one. I know women who have and i have never judged them for doing it but i do strongly disagree with abortions unless they are for medical reasons or rape.
And i agree with emzy about time limits. I strongly believe that abortions should not happen after a certain amount of time. 24 weeks is to long.

[bryzee86]

why is 24 weeks too long? especially when you consider that some people ay not realise they are pregnant for a month, then have to go doctors, and then see consultants and psychiatrists more than once - which can take up to 16 weeks anyway. Then they have to wait to be booked in.

This is obviously an extreme case. They can take more or less time of course.

[Frank]

Very well said, Frank. Impressive.

Thank you Indianvegan.

What are your thoughts?