Abortion

[Frank]

.

Although I agree with what Frank says in many ways, and in theory I would like to stand up and say the same, I do not believe that what he says is always the case,

What is always the case then in what i've posted?

[Frank]

Personally, I wouldn't care less if I had been aborted, and here's why: I wouldn't exist! Why should I care if I exist or don't.

The point is to be aborted you did exist.

You were real in that womb.

You were not a fiction of someone's imagination.

You were real.

[RubyDuby]

The world might be very different if any/all of these people had been aborted, however we'd have been brought up in a world without them so we wouldn't know any different. 'What if' questions are really quite meaningless imho, but if you're going to ask them then you should also consider 'what if' some of the more unpleasant characters from history had been aborted?
good points.

[indianvegan]

Thank you Indianvegan.

What are your thoughts?

It is really violent act and I'm against it.


Manish Jain

[puffin]

why is 24 weeks too long? especially when you consider that some people ay not realise they are pregnant for a month, then have to go doctors, and then see consultants and psychiatrists more than once - which can take up to 16 weeks anyway. Then they have to wait to be booked in.

This is obviously an extreme case. They can take more or less time of course.

Yes i have been there, and i know test can take a long time to come back etc. When i had my second i had several blood tests which went wrong so the by the time the test came back it was about 16 weeks but you usually know all you need to by 14 weeks and you have a scan at 8 weeks.
Why do i feel 24 weeks is to long? Because a baby can survive after that time (not always of course) and because of the way abortions are carried out in later stages (dont know if i should explain it in detail to be honest). I just find it barbaric and when you have to dismantle to get out i find that to much to take im afraid.

[Poison Ivy]

The point is to be aborted you did exist.

You were real in that womb.

You were not a fiction of someone's imagination.

You were real.

But not to the point of having any consciousness/awareness of it.

[Frank]

But not to the point of having any consciousness/awareness of it.


Interesting. However people have reported memories when they were inside the womb.

If I get a chance I'll try and see what's on the web in evidence, in relation to this point.

[bryzee86]

The point is to be aborted you did exist.

You were real in that womb.

You were not a fiction of someone's imagination.

You were real.

Therefore if I hadn't existed it wouldn't matter, 'cos I wouldn't exist to be able to know.

I don't like the fact I put my mum through pain (even though she is a bitch), so I wouldn't care if I'd have been aborted.

[Frank]

I'll try to go through these later on but wanted to post them for research.

Feel free to take a look.


Knowledge CenterBefore looking at the theories, however, let us look at the memories themselves. In hypnotherapy, womb memories are nearly as common as birth memories. ...
66.201.42.16/viewitem.php3?id=166&catid=163&kbid=ionsikc - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

Life Before Birth: CommunicationVerifiable womb memories led to apparent pre-conception memory, while serious reincarnation research and the success of past-life therapy promised to expand ...
www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/concept13.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Fetal memory: Does it exist? What does it do?Whether fetal memory exists has attracted interest for many thousands of years. ... womb, activity in the central nervous system and hence memory begins. ...
www.cirp.org/library/psych/hepper1/ - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

The Rule Book for Con Artists and ManipulatorsHe didn't ask, "How could someone have womb memories? He didn't look for other possible answers. He simply declared his own answer. ...
www.pro-truth.net/62-con-artist-tricks.html - 288k - Cached - Similar pages

Amazon.com: Remembering Your Life Before Birth: How Your Womb ...Amazon.com: Remembering Your Life Before Birth: How Your Womb Memories Have Shaped Your Life - And How to Heal Them: Michael Gabriel, Marie Gabriel: Books.
www.amazon.com/Remembering-Your-Life-Before-Birth/dp/0944031609 - 166k - Cached - Similar pages

Memories Before Birth? - TIMENow a serious British psychiatrist, who conducts much analysis under hypnosis, seriously claims to have dredged his patients' memories back to the womb. ...
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,935964,00.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

the agent wife files: Womb memoriesWomb memories. I had read somewhere that if asked early enough (before age 3 or so) a child could remember and describe their experience in the womb. ...
theagentwifefiles.blogspot.com/2007/06/womb-memories.html - 63k - Cached - Similar pages

Intrauterine Memories of Twinship ExperiencesSo we find that womb memories are not just about having blissful feelings of floating, or of being in a heavenly paradise. It also means feeling guilty ...
primal-page.com/twiner.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Intrauterine MemoriesInvariably, the memories of the womb, both physical and emotional, ... So we find that womb memories are not just about having blissful feelings of floating ...
www.twinlesstwins.org/GRIEF/ProfessionalResearch/IntrauterineMemories/tabid/132/Default.aspx - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Babies' musical memories formed in womb - 11 July 2001 - New ScientistBabies can remember things from the womb for much longer than we thought, say UK psychologists.
www.newscientist.com/article/dn994-babies-musical-memories-formed-in-womb.html - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

[sugarmouse]

You can also consider the evil in the world, and how much different and more beneficial situations could have been wiuthout there existance.
Obviously, earlier is the better for several reasons.
As regards the 'waste' abortion causes, those kids are unwanted, which is why they are aborted.There are many unwanted kids already.

[Joeybee]

I think it is better to abort an unwanted fetus, rather than go through with having an unwanted child. The earlier the better, i do agree with that, but it's difficult.
Also saying "well what if so and so had been aborted..." Well thousands of potential pregnancies are avoided every day when people use contraception when having sex, so what about all those babies that could have been made. There doesn't seem much point in "what-ifs" when talking about this issue.

[dreama]

But not to the point of having any consciousness/awareness of it.

How do you know? People can't generally remember what happened to them under the age of 3. It doesn't mean that before they were 3 they didn't feel anything.

[dreama]

I like how Klytemnest refers to the "pro-life" camp as "anti-choice". That's how I've always seen that group of people too.

Exactly what choice does being murdered leave a baby with? This is why I never refere to people in favor of abortion as 'Pro choice'. Your either pro life or pro abortion.

I'm all in favor of people being allowed to make their own choice. Just so long as the choices they make are not at anybody elses expense. So I don't believe ANYBODY should be allowed to kill someone else. Wether it is an animal or an unborn child.

[Poison Ivy]

How do you know? People can't generally remember what happened to them under the age of 3. It doesn't mean that before they were 3 they didn't feel anything.

I didn't phrase that reply well at all...what I meant in reply to franks question 'what if you were aborted' was pretty much what bryzee said much better than I did...

''Therefore if I hadn't existed it wouldn't matter, 'cos I wouldn't exist to be able to know''

[dreama]

I'll try to go through these later on but wanted to post them for research.

Feel free to take a look.


Knowledge CenterBefore looking at the theories, however, let us look at the memories themselves. In hypnotherapy, womb memories are nearly as common as birth memories. ...
66.201.42.16/viewitem.php3?id=166&catid=163&kbid=ionsikc - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

Life Before Birth: CommunicationVerifiable womb memories led to apparent pre-conception memory, while serious reincarnation research and the success of past-life therapy promised to expand ...
www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/concept13.html - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Fetal memory: Does it exist? What does it do?Whether fetal memory exists has attracted interest for many thousands of years. ... womb, activity in the central nervous system and hence memory begins. ...
www.cirp.org/library/psych/hepper1/ - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

The Rule Book for Con Artists and ManipulatorsHe didn't ask, "How could someone have womb memories? He didn't look for other possible answers. He simply declared his own answer. ...
www.pro-truth.net/62-con-artist-tricks.html - 288k - Cached - Similar pages

Amazon.com: Remembering Your Life Before Birth: How Your Womb ...Amazon.com: Remembering Your Life Before Birth: How Your Womb Memories Have Shaped Your Life - And How to Heal Them: Michael Gabriel, Marie Gabriel: Books.
www.amazon.com/Remembering-Your-Life-Before-Birth/dp/0944031609 - 166k - Cached - Similar pages

Memories Before Birth? - TIMENow a serious British psychiatrist, who conducts much analysis under hypnosis, seriously claims to have dredged his patients' memories back to the womb. ...
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,935964,00.html - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

the agent wife files: Womb memoriesWomb memories. I had read somewhere that if asked early enough (before age 3 or so) a child could remember and describe their experience in the womb. ...
theagentwifefiles.blogspot.com/2007/06/womb-memories.html - 63k - Cached - Similar pages

Intrauterine Memories of Twinship ExperiencesSo we find that womb memories are not just about having blissful feelings of floating, or of being in a heavenly paradise. It also means feeling guilty ...
primal-page.com/twiner.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Intrauterine MemoriesInvariably, the memories of the womb, both physical and emotional, ... So we find that womb memories are not just about having blissful feelings of floating ...
www.twinlesstwins.org/GRIEF/ProfessionalResearch/IntrauterineMemories/tabid/132/Default.aspx - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

Babies' musical memories formed in womb - 11 July 2001 - New ScientistBabies can remember things from the womb for much longer than we thought, say UK psychologists.
www.newscientist.com/article/dn994-babies-musical-memories-formed-in-womb.html - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

That's interesting. So people can remember before being born. My eariest memories are from the age of 3. I don't remember anything before that but that wasn't under hypnosis.

[dreama]

I didn't phrase that reply well at all...what I meant in reply to franks question 'what if you were aborted' was pretty much what bryzee said much better than I did...

''Therefore if I hadn't existed it wouldn't matter, 'cos I wouldn't exist to be able to know''

But the point is babies in the womb DO exist. So you are taking a life when you abort a baby.

[Poison Ivy]

I think everyone is aware of both those points, but in relation to franks question it wouldn't matter to 'me' if 'I' had been aborted as 'I' wouldn't know because 'I' would no longer exist and thus could not and would not be able to think about it.

[dreama]

The original "blanket" statement that I was referring to was:


Just to put things in perspective.

I'm glad you don't take offence to Mija's comment, Dreama - but I'm sure that many women who were raped, conceived and then aborted, would take offence to such a blanketed comment.

It's not as simple as saying "don't fuck" - people don't always choose to have sexual intercourse.

I wouldn't take offense at that because I don't see it as applying to people are raped. I see it only as applying to people who have irresponsible sex and then kill the baby when they find they are pregnant.

I don't really agree though. I'm quite in favor of the option of free sex as long as you get yourself steralized first. But it seems we live in a crazy world where murder is permitted while steps which could save lives such as sterilization on demand are not incourage.

[**Ames**]

Firstly, you quoted only a section of what I had said, can't help but get a slightly confrontational vibe off you!

This is what I think:

Think if your parents had aborted you?

Yeah, would be a shame but really, I wouldn't know about it though would i. Obviously depending on gestation. And if I had been I'm sure I would cope . . . being that I was dead.


You would not have turned out to be a sensitive person fighting for the rights of those less fortunate.

No perhaps not, but does that really matter in this case? What if I was a murderer? A rapist? Really irrelevant I think . . .

I've known women go for the abortion and get off the table before the deed.

Those children are now doctors/nurses - saving peoples lives etc.

That's brilliant, good for them, I think that is great cuz it's obviously what those women wanted. But what about the children that are genuinely not wanted, that go though the foster system or are neglected because, really, there parents didn't want them and frankly could not be bothered. And would it matter if there children had grown up to be something other than doctors etc? I feel that you are basing far too much of your arguements on what ifs and the fact that good people weren't aborted etc.

What if Martin Luther King/Winston Churchill/Jesus/Mohammed etc etc etc had been aborted? Choose who you actually like in life. The answer is the same.

What if questions really play no part in this, as I said above. One could equally say - what if Hitler HAD been aborted.

I've known a nice lady who was raped and because of her religion would/could not abort. She never stopped being devoted to her son. For he had never committed a sin to her.

That she had the strength to do that is truely amazing. But the young girl I knew that had to cope with that could not have managed it, at 15 and I truely believe that in the circumastances abortion was best, mentally, for both the girl and the child - I have to wonder how that child (and the one you mentioned) would feel growing up knowing that their father was a rapist. Being brought up by the mother or not, surely they would carry a lot of guilt. Thats not to say that death is better, but I think both the girls issues combined with that know what I mean?
Plus, Should we not be looking after the life that is already here . . . ie the girl that found herself pregnant at 15 by her rapist before worrying about bringing new life into the world and the foster system.

Britain bins about 530* children a day. That's a terrible waste.

I agree - like I already said, I do not see it as a quick fix, I don't believe it is right in all situations, just as a form of birth control. But I strongly believe that it should be available, for some situations and not be made illegal. These woman will still have abortions legal or illegal, but if they are made illegal they will be forced to use black market operations rather than hygienic proffessional services, therefore risking their life. Right or wrong this is a reality, it happened in Ireland for example not that many years back.


Yes - a women has pro-choice at the end of the day. Put her in a room full of children who's parents changed their minds and see the abortion figure drop.

Why? What real difference would this make? I genuinely don't understand. I am sure that all women that get pregnant have seen a child and mother at one time . . . do you think putting them in a room FULL of children would help them want to keep the child? Do you have kids LOL.

Or ask 100 children at aged 5 if they would have preferred to have been aborted. Strangely enough, not many.

Oh please, that is ridiculous . . . ask a five year old if that had rather been aborted?? Most, I would have thought, would not know what that is - but the ones that are neglected, abused, and brought up by parents that didn't want them would probably answer yes - assuming they understood the concept and the gravity of what they were saying. Not a very compelling arguement though is it? Similar to asking if someone wants to commit suicide or not dont you think?

[dreama]

That she had the strength to do that is truely amazing. But the young girl I knew that had to cope with that could not have managed it, at 15 and I truely believe that in the circumastances abortion was best, mentally, for both the girl and the child - I have to wonder how that child (and the one you mentioned) would feel growing up knowing that their father was a rapist. Being brought up by the mother or not, surely they would carry a lot of guilt. Thats not to say that death is better, but I think both the girls issues combined with that know what I mean?
Plus, Should we not be looking after the life that is already here . . . ie the girl that found herself pregnant at 15 by her rapist before worrying about bringing new life into the world and the foster system.



I disagree. I think that rape victims often feel enough guilt. Especially if nobody believes them. The last thing they should have to cope with is having the aditional burden of knowing they've killed their own child. I know that if I'd been made pregnant I could never have lived with myself if I'd had the baby aborted. It would have been worse for me then the experience of being raped. Fortunately that didn't happen but I can't see how committing murder after you have been violated can EVER be considered healthy.

[petunia]

it makes me extremely upset to read that people in this thread are using such terms as "murder the baby".
it IS NOT A BABY! it is a fetus, a POTENTIAL baby yes, but not a baby.

and being pro-choice IS possible. if one is pro-choice, they are not neccesarily "pro-abortion". what a ridiculous term, i dont think there is anyone on the planet who is "pro-abortion". being pro-choice is about the woman's right to choose what goes on with her body, and yes, IT IS HER BODY!

all i can say to people who are so firmly against abortion that they are willing to judge others, is walk a mile in someone elses shoes...

[Klytemnest]

Interesting. However people have reported memories when they were inside the womb.

If I get a chance I'll try and see what's on the web in evidence, in relation to this point.

I sincerely doubt that one can have memories of one's prenatal existence. But that is largely irrelevant since most abortions are performed when the fetus is so immature as to be a mere insensate mass - no awareness, no sensation. The brain is simply not capable of self-awareness or sensation yet.

And in response to your earlier post, what is Hitler, Attila the Hun, Ghenghiss Khan, and mohammed HAD been aborted. The suffering they caused would not have occurred. Is this an argument that can be used to advocate abortion? If not, then you can't use the argument that abortion is a bad thing because what if Mozart had been aborted...

[Aradia]

I'm guessing that if you asked a bunch of five year old if they are pleased that their mothers gave birth to them after being raped not many of them would say yes either.

Or if they were pleased that their mother gave birth at 14 years of age instead of finishing out her childhood that many would say yes.


I would encorage all of those in the world who are so anti-abortion to start adopting the "unwanted" children of the world. Start putting their actions into place instead of their mouths.


Calling a few cells a "baby" is launguage designed to shock. It doesn't shock me. A gathering of a few cells aren't a baby. Like a stack of brick are not a house.

[Klytemnest]

it makes me extremely upset to read that people in this thread are using such terms as "murder the baby".
it IS NOT A BABY! it is a fetus, a POTENTIAL baby yes, but not a baby.

and being pro-choice IS possible. if one is pro-choice, they are not neccesarily "pro-abortion". what a ridiculous term, i dont think there is anyone on the planet who is "pro-abortion". being pro-choice is about the woman's right to choose what goes on with her body, and yes, IT IS HER BODY!

all i can say to people who are so firmly against abortion that they are willing to judge others, is walk a mile in someone elses shoes...

I agree. It is not a baby. It is s fetus. To call it a baby introduces emotion into the argument and leads away from reason. Most pro-lifers mean well - they simply do not like the idea of killing innocent babies. I don't either. But the fact is, abortions do not kill babies. They kill living, but insensate masses, organisms that are simply incapable of sentience. Not defenseless babies.

But even if they were defenseless babies, the fact remains that they occupy someone else's body. And one has sovereigny over one's own body. No other person, no government, no church should have the right to command what one does with one's own body. If the woman does not wish to have her body occupied by anything or anyone else, it ought to be her right to have the option of aborting. Of course, we would all prefer that such decisions not be made frivolously or capriciously, but ultimately one's right to one's own body is "sacred". If we start taking this right away from people, we'll be in big trouble in no time at all. How long before people are forced to donate blood? How long before people are forced to donate organs? It's a slippery slope. One's body is one's own. No one else is welcome to it without one's permission.

[Aradia]

Superbly said Klytemnest.