Abortion

[snivelingchild]

I disagree. I think that rape victims often feel enough guilt. Especially if nobody believes them. The last thing they should have to cope with is having the aditional burden of knowing they've killed their own child.

That's your personality based on your feelings of the subject. For me, it was no question. I felt an intense sense of relief. The only negative thing was the F*ing doctor who didn't believe in the pill, and made me wait traumatized in the hospital for 2 hours for them to call someone else to hand me a pill....a pill where every hour counts.

If the pill hadn't worked, guess what I'd have done without burden. Yeah it would have been a horrible experience, but so is your first period and your first OB/GYN visit.

I don't see how forcing a 14 year old to go to school pregnant is healthy.

I kill fleas. Few vegans I know will refuse to kill all parasites. (I still don't kill mosquitoes) If you do this, then no, not all life is sacred.

[**Ames**]

I disagree. I think that rape victims often feel enough guilt. Especially if nobody believes them. The last thing they should have to cope with is having the aditional burden of knowing they've killed their own child. I know that if I'd been made pregnant I could never have lived with myself if I'd had the baby aborted. It would have been worse for me then the experience of being raped. Fortunately that didn't happen but I can't see how committing murder after you have been violated can EVER be considered healthy.

That is fair enough, everybody deals with things differently, personally I cannot imagine carrying the result of that rape around with me for 9months and giving birth to my rapists child. But my point is that everyone is different - some could cope, some could not, but that is not to say the option should not be there to help those that need it.

[Hemlock]

Pro choice for me all the way although it makes me sad when people use abortion as contraception for repeated carelessness (some of our patients have had 10):eek: I think that is a blatant disrepect for any kind of life.
Everyone can make a mistake though and shouldn't be forced to have a child they don't want.
I do think though that there are not nearly enough support bases for people who want to go ahead and have their babies and in this respect the pro-life lobby are bloody useless - take note!!!
When I had my son as a very young woman (a lot of it was under the influence of pro-lifers) they gave me NO support whatever once he was born and I was left to sink or swim on my own and suffered way too much for one person.
A new mum needs loads of friends and support or even better a commune of some sort with others. pro-lifers should concentrate on supporting new mums with practical help not getting them to have their babies and then dumping them:mad:

[sugarmouse]

I have had an abortion.No regrets, no self hatred, no burden.
And I dont think it makes me none-vegan.But if it does, then I defy definition butI will still hold to being an animal loving girl with a purpose.
Ihave posted my abortion story link on this thread bfore but I will do so again if anyone wants.
Ames put it so much better thanI , but yes alot of that is waht I was basically wanting to say...regards if I or you was aborted...the world would be worse.it works both ways.

[**Ames**]

Ames put it so much better thanI , but yes alot of that is waht I was basically wanting to say...

Thank god my rants make sense to someone other that me haha ;)

[Prawnil]

The cells forming the fetus may be genetically a combination of both parents, but the bodies of those cells are divided from the egg - simply a body cell of the mother. So to say that, as a pair's child, you are continuous, in the flesh, with your parents isn't metaphorical or somehow metaphysical, it's real & true. I think that is absolutely profound.
So, if the little fetus if just a bundle of cells replicating from one of the mother's, with the added complication of the father's DNA, the fetus, it would seem to me, is arguably not much more of a proto-human-being than any sperm or egg.

The cell bundle has the potential to survive and become an aware human once its sense systems are functioning (seems like a fair guess? But I suppose noone can say), but every single sperm and egg has that same potential.
In fact, every cell that exists, existed, or will exist in the testes that has the potential to form into a sperm does... And all those in the pre-natal girl that will form or have formed into the eggs. So then, don't vasectomies, tubal ligations, or any other sterilisation proceduers kill-off the potential lives of multiple millions of valid humans?

If not, why draw the line at the fertilisation rather than some vague point afterwards where the systems of the potential human are 'too' well formed. Why not draw the line at the egg or sperm that might combine?

I feel that extending law or moral rule inside a woman's body is madness. No lawmaker has any place there. In very many, and very real senses, that fetus is a part of the mother's body like any organ. Her cells, halfish her genes, connected to her, Inside her. Her's. The choice should be absolutely the mother's whether or not to continue to let it develop considering what it could do to her life. I can't even begin to imagine...

And hypotheticals set in the past are utterly, utterly meaningless. What is, is. There are no alternative timelines. They are a waste of thought and energy and ultimately sound confused and quite juvenile.

[Frank]

I don't like the fact I put my mum through pain (even though she is a bitch),

That's a shame bro.

Hopefully as time goes on things might improve for you guys.

[Frank]

As regards the 'waste' abortion causes, those kids are unwanted, which is why they are aborted.

Then don't get pregnant in the first place (ref my earlier post).

And those kids want to be wanted - but are never given the opportunity to express themselves.


There are many unwanted kids already.

Why is that?

[Frank]

I think it is better to abort an unwanted fetus, rather than go through with having an unwanted child. The earlier the better, i do agree with that, but it's difficult.
Also saying "well what if so and so had been aborted..." Well thousands of potential pregnancies are avoided every day when people use contraception when having sex, so what about all those babies that could have been made. There doesn't seem much point in "what-ifs" when talking about this issue.

I disagree.

You are either pregnant - or not pregnant.

A man masturbating etc means nothing*

Once a woman becomes pregnant - another life is involved.

Another life is not involved when you are shooting semen at a bit of plastic*


*Certain religions would disagree with that statement. Let's hear from anyone on that point.

[Poison Ivy]

Why is that?

Because people abuse them, don't understand them (or make an effort to understand them) and label them 'problem' children, maybe the parents end up in prison, or die/commit suicide and there's no-one else to look after them...there are many reasons why children end up in the care system - your point is what exactly?

[**Ames**]

Then don't get pregnant in the first place (ref my earlier post).

What if you are on BC? Accidents happen?

And those kids want to be wanted - but are never given the opportunity to express themselves.

Express themselves? Can I ask what you mean by that? They are not wanted - there is nothing the child can do to change that. Its a flaw with the parents.


Why is that?

Thats because people have babies they don't want. Rather than having them aborted.

[Frank]

Ames - I’m not being confrontational at a personal level. I’m fighting for people’s lives that are not given a chance to fight for theirs.


You state:

‘’Plus, Should we not be looking after the life that is already here . . . ie the girl that found herself pregnant at 15…..’’

My whole point is yes – we should be looking after life. You forgot to mention the baby that is about to be killed.


You state:
‘’These woman will still have abortions legal or illegal, but if they are made illegal they will be forced to use black market operations rather than hygienic proffessional services, therefore risking their life.’’

And what about the other life?

You refer to Ireland. Abortions in Ireland are banned (it’s written into their constitution) – it is a Catholic country*. However women from Ireland, Portugal, Saudi Arabia etc do come to the UK for abortions. However, when you are brought up in an ‘environment’ that does not allow abortions, the abortions from women overall in that country are low.
I read those facts on Yahoo recently as a news item which actually published the nationalities visiting the UK for abortions. If anyone has that article – please post it.

In the meantime:
http://www.mscperu.org/aborto/abortingl/abortos_porcentajepaises.htm
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/13114704?view=Eircomnet


You state in reference to a woman sitting in a room full of children who’s parents had changed their mind on abortions:

‘’Why? What real difference would this make? I genuinely don't understand. I am sure that all women that get pregnant have seen a child and mother at one time . . . do you think putting them in a room FULL of children would help them want to keep the child?’’

Yes I do. If only one mother changed her mind – it would be worth it.


You state in response to asking five year olds if they would have preferred to have been aborted.

Its not a ridiculous scenario.

If you are uncomfortable asking five year olds then ask 10 year olds 15 year olds etc. Like I stated, strangely enough not many will.


*Being a catholic does not mean a woman will not have an abortion. Can we hear from some praticing catholics/muslims/other religions etc please on this topic overall.





Firstly, you quoted only a section of what I had said, can't help but get a slightly confrontational vibe off you!

This is what I think:

Yeah, would be a shame but really, I wouldn't know about it though would i. Obviously depending on gestation. And if I had been I'm sure I would cope . . . being that I was dead.

No perhaps not, but does that really matter in this case? What if I was a murderer? A rapist? Really irrelevant I think . . .

That's brilliant, good for them, I think that is great cuz it's obviously what those women wanted. But what about the children that are genuinely not wanted, that go though the foster system or are neglected because, really, there parents didn't want them and frankly could not be bothered. And would it matter if there children had grown up to be something other than doctors etc? I feel that you are basing far too much of your arguements on what ifs and the fact that good people weren't aborted etc.

What if questions really play no part in this, as I said above. One could equally say - what if Hitler HAD been aborted.

That she had the strength to do that is truely amazing. But the young girl I knew that had to cope with that could not have managed it, at 15 and I truely believe that in the circumastances abortion was best, mentally, for both the girl and the child - I have to wonder how that child (and the one you mentioned) would feel growing up knowing that their father was a rapist. Being brought up by the mother or not, surely they would carry a lot of guilt. Thats not to say that death is better, but I think both the girls issues combined with that know what I mean?
Plus, Should we not be looking after the life that is already here . . . ie the girl that found herself pregnant at 15 by her rapist before worrying about bringing new life into the world and the foster system.

I agree - like I already said, I do not see it as a quick fix, I don't believe it is right in all situations, just as a form of birth control. But I strongly believe that it should be available, for some situations and not be made illegal. These woman will still have abortions legal or illegal, but if they are made illegal they will be forced to use black market operations rather than hygienic proffessional services, therefore risking their life. Right or wrong this is a reality, it happened in Ireland for example not that many years back.

Why? What real difference would this make? I genuinely don't understand. I am sure that all women that get pregnant have seen a child and mother at one time . . . do you think putting them in a room FULL of children would help them want to keep the child? Do you have kids LOL.

Oh please, that is ridiculous . . . ask a five year old if that had rather been aborted?? Most, I would have thought, would not know what that is - but the ones that are neglected, abused, and brought up by parents that didn't want them would probably answer yes - assuming they understood the concept and the gravity of what they were saying. Not a very compelling arguement though is it? Similar to asking if someone wants to commit suicide or not dont you think?

[Poison Ivy]

However women from Ireland, Portugal, Saudi Arabia etc do come to the UK for abortions. However, when you are brought up in an ‘environment’ that does not allow abortions, the abortions from women overall in that country are low.

Maybe that's because in countries where legal abortions are not allowed the self induced abortions that women try to perform and then end up going to hospital for are admitted under spontaneous abortion/miscarriage??

[snivelingchild]

Then don't get pregnant in the first place (ref my earlier post).

OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Well damn, I never done did think of that.
Okay, so sense I never want children, I guess I have to give up sex with my husband for the next 5 or so years until we can even CONSIDER to afford sterilization. Since no birth control is 100%, I suppose couples who want children later in life, but are not in a position where affording children is fathomable yet, should never have sex either?

I would not want to live such a depressing life where physical relations with a partner are seen as for making babies only. I'm not saying that going without sex with a partner because of certain circumstances (physical inability) would destroy the relationship, in fact I think it could be stronger, but living in a mindset where physical touch does not equal love....that's the same kind of empty mindset that casual sex brings.

What earlier post are you referring to? I didn't see one that mentioned birth control.

I also don't think anything you posted in prenatal "memories" has any significance. Yeah, maybe some people have been able to retain memory from infantcy or even prebirth, but even if they had I can promise you it was probably from the last two trimesters, and I do seriously doubt it would exist in the second if at all. One of those links talked about past-life memories, and one was a pro-life site. :rolleyes: I think you should do more research into false memories, especially those brought on by "hypnotherapy." There's MANY, MANY documented cases where hypnotherapy was used to "bring back memories" of someone for a trial, and the things they said were eventually completely disproved.

And yes, I've had hypnotherapy to "bring back memories" after I was raped. The detectives thought I was lying throughout the whole process, so wanted to see if I could remember more details. It's a load of crock. All it is is meditation to help you concentrate, although for the life of me I don't know how one can meditate with some therapist talking shit in your ear the whole time.

[Frank]

I agree. It is not a baby. It is s fetus. To call it a baby introduces emotion into the argument and leads away from reason. Most pro-lifers mean well - they simply do not like the idea of killing innocent babies. I don't either. But the fact is, abortions do not kill babies. They kill living, but insensate masses, organisms that are simply incapable of sentience. Not defenseless babies.



Really? An insensate mass?

So the lady at a Birmingham hospital that had an abortion at 24 weeks did not get upset when the 'insensate mass' started screaming?

It apparantly shocked her - and her father who is a surgeon and was also in the room.

The 'insensate mass' was screaming for its life.

Perhaps if all woman wanting to abort were shown that as a clip many would change their minds and actually view a life as a 'baby' rather than an 'insensate mass'.

The baby or 'insensate mass' eventually died by the way.

[Frank]

it makes me extremely upset to read that people in this thread are using such terms as "murder the baby".
it IS NOT A BABY! it is a fetus, a POTENTIAL baby yes, but not a baby.


See my previous post.

The answer is the same.

[Frank]

Because people abuse them, don't understand them (or make an effort to understand them) and label them 'problem' children, maybe the parents end up in prison, or die/commit suicide and there's no-one else to look after them...there are many reasons why children end up in the care system - your point is what exactly?


Okay - so it's not the child's fault.

Still not a good enough reason to get rid of them is it?

[Poison Ivy]

There's a difference between an abortion carried out in the first trimester (when it IS an insensate mass) which is when most abortions are carried out, than one at 24 weeks when independent life is possible (though very unlikely without intense medical support)...and if the woman in that case was surprised at what happened then she received very, very poor counselling prior to the abortion.

As for showing women a video of something similar I find it a bit disconcerting/somewhat reprehensible that anyone would suggest using that kind of emotional blackmail on a woman in a vulnerable enough state already.:mad:

Abortion is an emotive subject whichever side of the fence you sit on but the strongly emotive language/tactics used by the pro-life camp doesn't help anyone...and trying to persuade someone that you know what is best for that person and their body quite honestly appalls me.

[Frank]

Snivelingchild - that was a terrible thing to happen to you :(

I posted this:
''Have women and men not learnt anything about contraception, safe sex etc?''

Contraception to me does not mean that you can't love or have sex with your partner.


OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Well damn, I never done did think of that.
Okay, so sense I never want children, I guess I have to give up sex with my husband for the next 5 or so years until we can even CONSIDER to afford sterilization. Since no birth control is 100%, I suppose couples who want children later in life, but are not in a position where affording children is fathomable yet, should never have sex either?

I would not want to live such a depressing life where physical relations with a partner are seen as for making babies only. I'm not saying that going without sex with a partner because of certain circumstances (physical inability) would destroy the relationship, in fact I think it could be stronger, but living in a mindset where physical touch does not equal love....that's the same kind of empty mindset that casual sex brings.

What earlier post are you referring to? I didn't see one that mentioned birth control.

I also don't think anything you posted in prenatal "memories" has any significance. Yeah, maybe some people have been able to retain memory from infantcy or even prebirth, but even if they had I can promise you it was probably from the last two trimesters, and I do seriously doubt it would exist in the second if at all. One of those links talked about past-life memories, and one was a pro-life site. :rolleyes: I think you should do more research into false memories, especially those brought on by "hypnotherapy." There's MANY, MANY documented cases where hypnotherapy was used to "bring back memories" of someone for a trial, and the things they said were eventually completely disproved.

And yes, I've had hypnotherapy to "bring back memories" after I was raped. The detectives thought I was lying throughout the whole process, so wanted to see if I could remember more details. It's a load of crock. All it is is meditation to help you concentrate, although for the life of me I don't know how one can meditate with some therapist talking shit in your ear the whole time.

[sandra]

I don't want to get involved in the abortion debate again but I just have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Frank!
I believe there are no grounds for abortion unless it's a choice between the life of the mother or the life of the child...........then there has to be a judgement made.
You should not have sex unless you are willing to take the consequences of having sex.........if that means getting pregnant............so be it.
It's disgusting that in one part of a hospital they are fighting frantically to save the lives of premature babies (around 24 weeks) while in another part of the same hospital they are cutting these babies into pieces and aborting them. To me that is madness and just signifies the deranged way human beings regard life..........animal and human.

[Barley]

Abortion is an emotive subject whichever side of the fence you sit on but the strongly emotive language/tactics used by the pro-life camp doesn't help anyone...and trying to persuade someone that you know what is best for that person and their body quite honestly appalls me.

I have to say I'm with you on this Poison....

[xrodolfox]

I lived in a country where no abortions were legal.
Lets just say that the results are terrible.

[snivelingchild]

24 weeks is 6 months!!!!! Find me a doctor who will perform that where the life of the mother is not in danger! We are talking about the first freakin trimester here!! Anyone who has an abortion not for medical reasons at 24 weeks should be slapped in the face!

Sandra, I'm sorry, but does that mean poor people can't have sex, since they can't afford the consequences? Or should they have to survive working pregnant and then filling up the system with babies for adoption, which in my opinion, is a horrible thing.

No offense to anyone here who had done that, but I think you should only keep a baby to adopt if you have found a family while still pregnant. I knew a girl who did this, and it turned out splendidly. I think dumping a baby infant without knowing if it will ever have a home or good care is more irresponsible than killing it at 8 weeks.

Frank, yes birth control needs to be used, but it does fail, and it fails more often where people are undereducated, which is usually in poor areas. Does that mean people should have sex and just play russian roulette with the rest of their lives?

I have sex with my husband, and use 2 methods of birth control that should be 99.9% effective. However, if a condom were to break (which it has before), I go to the clinic and get the morning after pill instead of relying on the spermicide, which is 78% effective on it's own. If the spermicide failed, and the morning after pill failed (I think it's something like 80%) I would get pregnant.

(At this point some people would have already considered the pill an abortion, even though it prevents the egg from implanting, which is the true beginning of pregnancy sine only 33% or fertilized eggs implant)

At this point, I would not consider kepping the child as I would have to drop out of school (I'd like to meet someone who can work full time, go to school full time (which is the only way the government pays for it) and have a baby) and stay on government assistance for most of my life just to afford food for my child. If I gave it up for adoption....well you should just see the system in Louisiana. Say I couldn't find a family whilst pregnant. Then say that the child was born with defect. It would never get adopted. I have known 5 children in the system here, and all had stories of neglect (including withholding food) and emotional abuse, along with having few resources for a good life after age 18.

Even if they were a healthy white baby, they could still get stuck in this situation, like two of the people I knew who were healthy white babies. Yeah, the child may very well have a wonderful life. If I beat my kid, it could still have a good life, even if I reduced it's chances of having it. That doesn't mean I want to put that child in that situation. I also consider it irresponsible to breed in this day and age, and I take that very seriously.

I just posted my personal situation here so people would know that everyone has a story, and you can't make a blanket statement for everyone. Just consider the fact that there are people in situations very different from yours, and whats true for you might not be for them.

[xrodolfox]

For the record, birth control isn't 100% effective. My wife and I have two children, both of which were conceived when at least two forms of birth control were used.

[lux]

Disclaimer: I am coming way late to this thread and I have not read all replies.

My feelings on abortion are complicated. But at this point, I feel it should definitely remain legal. In a perfect world (well, my perfect world) I would hope that it would only be used when the mother's life is in danger, or in cases of rape/incest. But there are too many different circumstances out there and not enough support and education to put those restrictions on it now. These are my feelings when I try to look at it objectively.
Personally, as a woman, and a mother, and a Catholic, I have a really hard time with it. The mother and Catholic part of me screams out against it. I can't imagine killing my own child. I just can't fathom it. As a woman, the thought that the government can force me to carry a child for 9 months, perhaps being sick the entire time, like I was with my daughter, or having severe complications, etc., & go through labor (which in my case was 25 excruciating hours & the recovery was even worse) does bother me. Especially if I was raped. So, I have conflicting feelings. I will say though, in my heart it feels wrong.

~Lux