Abortion

[uww27225]

Are we really to the level in this "discussion" that we're going to attack the adjectives? If you want to discuss such a serious issue, then a little maturity and respect would be appreciated. I misread your comment on the "morning after" pill, apologized and you respond by questioning the word adament? If you wanted to know how I felt on the issue, you could've asked.

I am veg*n because I don't think animals should be killed so that I get fed. I CHOOSE to not eat animal products. I don't force that on anyone and I don't think meat should become illegal, just the torteous ways of the current industry. I would like to see veg*nism become the norm, but we are a long way from that.

I think you can see where I'm going with this. I don't know if I could have an abortion and I don't think it should be the norm in terms of birth control. This is why we need to support educating on youth about safe sex, not preach abstinence. I do believe that there is a point in the pregnancy where abortion should no longer be an option (unless the mother's life is in danger) and it is my understanding that it already is illegal for late-term abortions in the states.

[cwih57]

I've never posted here before, I usually just read, because somebody else always says what I was thinking anyway, but this thread mad me angry enough to bother with registering. Abortion is the "dirty little secret" of middle class America, statically about 1 out of 5 women will have an abortion at some point in there life, but if you listen to people talk it would seem much lower since nobody will admit it, it is a very personal thing, however when people lie about it it only adds to the secrecy and fear. I am vegan and I have had an abortion, in fact I'll be having another one in about 2 weeks, when I can afford it. Yes all life is important, even mine, and I can jsut not have a baby right now, No I don't consider abortion a good method of birth control, nobody does especially not at 500 dollars a piece. THere are reasons why this happen that are complicated and long winded and make me want to sue my ob-gyn, but I'm not going to get into it here. If you want to believe that abortion is wrong, you go right ahead, but until you have been there, don't try to take away the options of people backed into a corner. No baby should be brought into this world with parents that don't love it or want it. Thats how child abuse and infantide happen (infanticide is the other dirty little secret of middle america, you would been shocked at the numbers, and all to often it is covered up) Adoption is not always an option, just having someone cover you medical bills does not cover hte cost of pregnancy, it does not account for lost work hours, for new clothes, not the emotinal heart ach that comes from pregnancy, it doesn't cover a million things. Also the legal responsiblities of a parent that gives up a child are still in question in many areas, children are given access to the birth parents info when they reach 18 and the consequences of that are endless. Having an abortion is not an easy decision, but sometimes it the only option, lots of things in life are that way.

[veganfever]

UWW27225, I sincerely apologize. I was being rud,rud,rud :o . I didn't mean any sort of attack. It crossed my mind that it might be taken as an offense but I guess I ignored the thought.
I knew I should acknowledge the appology but on the other hand I didn't want to make a big deal out of this. Wrong! I suck in dealing with people when there is some disagreement involved.
Sorry. :o :)

[Tofu Monster]

ok, abortion? well speaking personally i think abortion is absolutely 'wrong' in an ideal world, especially from a vegan pespective. unfortunately, as we all know the world is far from ideal! (if it was, everyone would be vegan, hip-hop music would be banned and i'd be hung like a pornstar and married to jennifer love hewitt.)

but seriously, when i was 18 (22 years ago) i was a typical brainless hormonal yoof and i got a girlfriend pregnant, who then had an abortion. now i've since got my son from when i was married, who's 16 and an incredibly bright and thoughtful, caring kid, and i sometimes reflect on the fact that that due to my careless actions as a youngster i did once create another potentially very nice and worthwhile member of society, except that first one was aborted through no fault of his/her own, never to get the chance to enjoy the life i helped to create.

but do i feel bad about it? well, to be honest, no i don't. not really. i thought at the time that it was for the best and had i been put in the position of being a father back then i don't know where i'd be today and chances are i wouldn't have the son that i now have whom i love dearly.

so there's no easy answer. all i can say is that these days i'd never get myself into that position of creating an unwanted child, but of course it's easier to say that at 40 than it is at 18.

but to get to the point, i do believe that it should ultimately be the right of the woman to choose whether or not she has an abortion. i feel that is the bottom line in all this.

i wonder, has anybody here studied any views on abortion from a buddhist perspective?

[uww27225]

Apology accepted veganfever. :)

[foxytina_69]

i appreciate your comment about women having beable to make the choice of abortion or not tofu monster.

and good question about the buddhist perspective.

[veganfever]

Apology accepted veganfever. :)

Thank you, UWW27225. :D

[John]

i wonder, has anybody here studied any views on abortion from a buddhist perspective?

I have read the views of Chan master Sheng-Yen. He prefaces his views by saying that he is by no means a moral mouthpiece or issuer of steadfast law. He is a Buddhist monk who has studied and practiced the Dharma for some time.

He draws his views from the Sutra of the Womb. At the moment of conception a sentient being carrying the full karmic burden of previous lives enters the womb and begins a new life. A karmic affinity brings the new life to a set of parents. Regardless of the conditions of conception, the mother is karmically connected to the new being.

In the case of a risk to the mother's life, Sheng-Yen says that the life that has already been born should be saved. The fetus should be aborted and the mother saved--although it is still killing.

Sheng-Yen, Zen Wisdom Knowing and Doing, Thirty-Eight Conversations With Ch'an Master Sheng-Yen, Dharma Drum Publications, 1993.

[snivelingchild]

On the basics of abortion, both sides have the same argument. If you have an abortion, you are forcing a fetus's life away, against its will. If you ban abortion, you are forcing a woman to give birth, against her will. I know morally, this is a horrible thing, but it boils down to a lesser of two evils. Would it be better for the child to live, or would it not be worth the trouble a life would cause the child AND the mother? This issue cannot be known by the government. They do not know what would be best. However, NO ONE can know, but at least the mother or both parents would have a better idea. This is, of course, just taking into consideration specific situations, not looking into the greater good of the world, but that's how I see this.
I will say that those of you who will not bend your views in the opposite direction need to look DEEP into the whole issue before confirming your view as right. I'm not saying those of you reading are being ignorant to information, just that many people don't take the time to consider all the points on the issue.

[Geoff]

For me, the real problem around the abortion issue is the way many of the advocates treat it in such a trivial way, like the women on a May Day march in Brisbane chanting: "What do we want? Free abortion on demand. When do we want it? Now!"
Wouldn't it be more rational to demand free sex education and contraceptives so that the need for abortion is avoided?
We also have infertile people going to extraordinary lengths to conceive, while healthy babies are aborted.
'There is no sin except stupidity' George Bernard Shaw

[snivelingchild]

It isn't a trivial thing and certainly shouldn't be treated as such. And many couples do go to extaordinary lengths to concieve. This seems rediculous to me. It seems so selfish to spend thousands of dollars just so that you could have your own baby instead of adopting.
As far as adoption instead of abortion, I consider it a irresponsible thing just to drop your child into a system (especially one with so many problems) without any knowing of what will happen. Now, undoubtedly, people will argue that an abortion is irresponsible, but at least it's taking an initiative. It should also be DONE responsibly, i.e. as early as possible and in the best way. However, I fully support those who adopt their children to specific people, especially before their born. That way you have a reasonable understanding of the life they will be given.
I'm getting a bit ranty.

[Tofu Monster]

young people are being prematurely sexualised in our society in order to sell records, perfumes, clothes, magazines, god knows what. any person with half a brain can see this. kids are being forced into an adult world they're simply not emotionally equipped to deal with. this is the real problem. debating whether abortion is right or wrong is like trying to heal recurring symptoms while never getting to cause of the illness. (and rather than helping matters, religious dogma just tends to cloud and confuse the issue.) you can apply that philosophy to many of the problems we face in the modern world. the greed of the few is frequently the cause of suffering of the many. and given that governments are inevitably on the side of the few, not the many, you can’t expect much help from them in changing anything. don't ask me where that leaves us! viva la revolucion, anybody?

[feline01]

This thread is very interesting though extremely sad as well. To hear first hand the trauma that some women have been through as well as some of the thoughts behind those who judge decisions based on circumstances that they have never faced themselves. Not only the abortion but adoption and the use of reproductive technology. Yes, Sniveling Child, there are millions of unwanted children in this world who need good homes and there are some people, like me and my husband, who decided that we wanted to conceive our own biological child (turned out to be children) so we spent the thousands of dollars on IVF. Was our decision selfish? Maybe but it resulted in two very loved children who have the potential to achieve anything in this world and I have no regrets. I am amazed at people who can judge one's personal decisions when they have no clue what a person or couple have experienced in their lives. I'm not going to explain why we had to do IVF, it is too personal but suffice it to say that "natural" conception could have resulted in high risk to me and the fetus. As for abortion, I try not to judge since I have never walked in their shoes. I don't think I could ever have one but that is me and just as I did not force my husband to give up eating murdered animals (he chose on his own through education), I would not want to force someone from terminating a pregnancy. I'm a social worker for a rather large welfare agency and deal with low-income parents, mainly single mothers including victims of domestic violence and rape. I have seen firsthand throughout the years, the unfortunate outcome of unwanted children as well as children born to parents who do not have the emotional maturity to care for them. The foster care system is overloaded and can not handle these children so their lives often hang in the balance. I do not have any answers for this but I can guess that having abortion illegal would NOT help the situation at all.

[veganfever]

feline01, you wrote:
[I am amazed at people who can judge one's personal decisions when they have no clue what a person or couple have experienced in their lives. ]
.[/QUOTE]

[As for abortion, I try not to judge since I have never walked in their shoes.]
.[/QUOTE]

Lets not get so offended when somebody judges. It's normal process for us, human beings. Do we have the right to judge any criminal activity of a crimnal because he/she made a "personal" decision to commit a crime? We didn't walk in his/her shoes. We didn't have his/her experience. Do we have to walk in somebody shoes to be able to judge? Judging shouldn't be such a dirty word. We just don't want to be excessively judgmental to the point that it makes our everyday lives unpleasant.
Not that I think abortion is a criminal activity, just to make a point about judgement.


[I'm a social worker for a rather large welfare agency and deal with low-income parents, mainly single mothers including victims of domestic violence and rape. I have seen firsthand throughout the years, the unfortunate outcome of unwanted children as well as children born to parents who do not have the emotional maturity to care for them. The foster care system is overloaded and can not handle these children so their lives often hang in the balance. I do not have any answers for this but I can guess that having abortion illegal would NOT help the situation at all.][/QUOTE]

I don't have an answer, either, but why do we always mention the victims of domestic/not domestic rape while this is such a small percentage of all reasons for abortion? There can be exceptions made for these cases.
Making it illegal accross the border is neither right nor practical but lets call it what it is, lets admit it is not right and it should be avoided as much as possible and lets try to prevent it. If we say that it is a right of a women to kill her baby and it's OK to do it, than we will never eradicate it nor even minimize it, having this attitude.
And killing, because that's what it is, is not a solution to anything. There must be other ways to deal with these issues. Education, education, education (I mean education in humanities, forget the math, phisics, computer sicience , etc.)plus morning after pill. :)

veganfever

[feline01]

Vegan Fever,

You have some valid points about everyone making judgements, it is a human condition which is why I said I try not to judge and did not say I don't judge. I do think that abortion is killing but I don't think making it illegal will help the world at all. You are very correct in stating that education is the answer but unforunately, many conservative governments are against the concept of real sex education and birth control. It was only recently that medicaid clients were able to use their medicaid to get birth control pills, prior to that medicaid would pay for an abortion but not birth control. That is a political step in the right direction. Government leaders need to accept the fact that though religions might state that premarital sex and/or birth control is wrong, people do have sex and birth control needs to be affordable and accessible to all.

[veganfever]

Vegan Fever,

Government leaders need to accept the fact that though religions might state that premarital sex and/or birth control is wrong, people do have sex and birth control needs to be affordable and accessible to all.

I agree with you on that.

veganfever

[snoopcat]

Pro-choice or pro life?

To me it is quite paradoxical that most vegans support abortion (from the vegans I know). Why is it OK for a human to do away with their own offspring, but if a human does away with an "animal's" child it's murder? Just curious about what people have to say on the topic.

[Korn]

Hi Snoopcat, I just merged your post with the old thread on abortion...

[TheFirstBus]

Pro-choice or pro life?

To me it is quite paradoxical that most vegans support abortion (from the vegans I know). Why is it OK for a human to do away with their own offspring, but if a human does away with an "animal's" child it's murder? Just curious about what people have to say on the topic.


What choice do we have?? The child is born thrown into the system until they are legal adults then kicked back out again to fend for themselves??

[John]

You must mean pro-choice or anti-choice.

[John]

One could be against abortion and pro-choice at the same time.

Also, if someone is going to call himself "pro-life" he should also be against the death penalty, war, euthanasia, and all forms of killing humans.

The term pro-life is misleading and I don't buy it.

Yes, I am trying to change the language.

[bulletproof]

One could be against abortion and pro-choice at the same time.



i am pro-life and pro-choice, simulteneously (sp?). pro-choice isn't the same as pro-abortion. i have probably said that before since i was the starter of this thread (it would seem!) but.. oh well.. said it again..

[cwih57]

I agree, I am pro-abortion, not pro-choice. There are three definate opinions on the matter, 2 mainstream (anti and pro choice). What to call each side is almost a politically charged as the issue itself.

[Astrocat]

I think that if pro-human-life / anti-choice people poured their energies less into criticising pro-choice people (which they seem to do a great deal of) and instead used that energy to campaign for people to be allowed to be sterilised if they want to be, the world would be a better place.

I know that the situation is often different in other places, but here in the UK you usually have to be either male, or have had children already, be over 30, and have a really good reason for wanting to be sterilised (ie solid evidence that it would affect your mental or physical state to have more children) before doctors will even consider it - otherwise they tell you to clear off and come back when you;ve had kids if you want to be sterilised (or sentiments to that effect)

It all seems so wrong, to me...

[DianeVegan]

Well, I am happy to judge women getting abortions. And I judge them to be thoughtful and courageous. Maybe that's because the majority of those I've worked with were educated, employeed, married and mothers. Many of them were using birth control and all were devasted that it didn't work. Families, just like the earth, have limited resources. Perhaps Bush would suggest "Abstinence Before Menopause?"