Abortion

[veganlinda]

I'm highly sceptical about those stories, but even if there is the odd case like that it's a price that I think society should be prepared to pay for trying to ensure that every child has a reasonable standard of living.

It's the threats I'm unhappy about, not the cheques - no-one should feel forced to give birth.

Well said!

(I mentioned this earlier on the thread). I had an abortion. Retrospectively, I was left with guilt and a huge sadness. At the time I couldn't see an alternative. In the space I am currently in it wouldn't be an option. I still think that unless you have been forced to make that choice then you should try not to judge too harshly.

Theorising is easy, unfortunately life is often more complex.

[Twist Kick]

I think feeling guilty for a year or two is far better than being saddled with the complete responsibility for another human being - ESPECIALLY if you are single.

One of the most unattractive qualities in women that guys are looking for when they're considering marriage? Children. Guys don't want to marry a woman who already has kids. In fact, lots of guys won't even date a single mother. I know single mothers personally, and virtually all of them tell me the same thing: Yeah the dates go fine, until I bring up my kid..

Shouldn't a child be something special between two adults who are commited to each other and able and willing to raise a child? Not the product of a one-night stand, cheap boyfriend, or rape, and not the burden a single woman should have to carry.

Life is complex - but when the choices are either one with minor consequences or major consequences (abortion vesus having the baby), one really has to consider which is honestly, truthfully better for oneself and for the child.

Every kid deserves two parents, male and female, or male and male, or female and female.

Raising a child is not a one person job. Nor should it be.

[sugarmouse]

I quote you for truth, twist kick on all you have said.
Although, I do not condemn single parents, there are many reasons why a parent would be single.
Not ideal, maybe.
I have had an abortion, and this may make me a total monster too, but I can honestly say, I have never, ever felt one tiny twinge of guilt over it.Not a single, solitary second of it. dont know what kind of person that makes me.

[petunia]

See my previous post.

The answer is the same.

its extremely sad that you are not able to see the difference between an abortion at 4, 6 or 10 weeks, and SIX MONTHS!

obviously those are VERY different situations.

[Twist Kick]

-highfives Sugar-

It makes you a normal, forward-thinking woman that dosn't let society guilt-trip her for controlling her own body - which is her complete, fair right.

I don't condemn single parents, I don't run around and yell "You're an awful person and should have aborted that baby!" at single moms. But I do seriously think that a child ought to have two parents. In our far-from-ideal world, yes, plenty of kids only have one parent, but really, it's better for the kid and the mother if she has a partner.

Petunia - I do have to agree with you. Unless it's extenuating circumstances (the baby has been shown to have a crippling, horrible disease like Tay-Sachs or something and the testing can't be done until the sixth month), abortions should ALWAYS happen during the first trimester. The sooner, the better - it makes chemical abortions a more workable idea.

[sugarmouse]

-highfives Sugar-

It makes you a normal, forward-thinking woman that dosn't let society guilt-trip her for controlling her own body - which is her complete, fair right.

I don't condemn single parents, I don't run around and yell "You're an awful person and should have aborted that baby!" at single moms. But I do seriously think that a child ought to have two parents. In our far-from-ideal world, yes, plenty of kids only have one parent, but really, it's better for the kid and the mother if she has a partner.

:) I know this is going off topic, I do agree that single parents are not ideal-howeverI believe a single parent is much more ideal than many other scenarios, such as parents who constantly argue, have a volatile or violent relationship, or a single parent who cares and loves their child, being so much more ideal than two parents who dont give a hoot,kwim?

I am sure you agree anyways.

My abortion would have pleased most pro-lifes. It went wrong, was excrutiatingly painful and saw my life threatened. All that and i still dont regret it.lol

[Twist Kick]

Oh, wow. -hugs Sugar- I'm sorry it was done poorly.. but even the pain and danger is certianly worth not having to raise a child that you don't want.

But you're right - as I said before, it'd be best if the parents are in a stable relationship with each other.. But anyway, you're right, a loving, capable single parent is far better than two people that are irressponsible or don't actually want the child.

[puffin]

I think feeling guilty for a year or two is far better than being saddled with the complete responsibility for another human being - ESPECIALLY if you are single.

One of the most unattractive qualities in women that guys are looking for when they're considering marriage? Children. Guys don't want to marry a woman who already has kids. In fact, lots of guys won't even date a single mother. I know single mothers personally, and virtually all of them tell me the same thing: Yeah the dates go fine, until I bring up my kid..

Shouldn't a child be something special between two adults who are committed to each other and able and willing to raise a child? Not the product of a one-night stand, cheap boyfriend, or rape, and not the burden a single woman should have to carry.

Life is complex - but when the choices are either one with minor consequences or major consequences (abortion vesus having the baby), one really has to consider which is honestly, truthfully better for oneself and for the child.

Every kid deserves two parents, male and female, or male and male, or female and female.

Raising a child is not a one person job. Nor should it be.

I think this is rubbish, yes some guys might not want someone elses children but to tell you the truth i wouldnt want a guy that thought my children were a pain for him. Also my children are more important than any man so if i was single i would rather be alone than think i was putting someone out in life :rolleyes:
Also yes in a idea word it would be great to have perfect parents with perfect 2 parent families but i know single mums who do a wonderful job of raising there children and have been in committed relationships when they had the children but it didnt work out.
lol at burden, i would hate to think i was burden to my mum when i was a unexpected child. I sometimes felt like it but even though my mum was rubbish i would rather have been through that and have the life i have now.

[Twist Kick]

Puffin, several things.

1. Again, I reiterate, the best situation is one where the child is being raised by two capable, prepared parents, the second best is where they are being raised by one who is likewise capable and prepared and wanting a child , but in today's world, many children are raised in families that do not want them, are not capable or prepared to raise them, or who are not ready to be parent(s) but are forced into it because of social stigma.

2. Every child is a burden. You were a burden. I was a burden. Everyone here was a burden. Expected, unexpected, adopted, not-adopted, wanted, unwanted, raising a child is a burden. It varies from person to person how ready they are to shoulder said burden, but raising a child is a huge task - no matter the circumstances.

3. Guys are genetically prone to not want to raise someone else's kid. They have done studies on this and proved it so. A man is far less likely to marry or date a woman who has children. Not all guys follow this rule, but the majority will.


4. As always, saying 'I'm glad my mom didn't abort me, blah blah blah', is a pointless, baseless argument. If your mother had aborted you, you wouldn't be here arguing this. It's that damn simple.

[Poison Ivy]

2. Every child is a burden. You were a burden. I was a burden. Everyone here was a burden. Expected, unexpected, adopted, not-adopted, wanted, unwanted, raising a child is a burden. It varies from person to person how ready they are to shoulder said burden, but raising a child is a huge task - no matter the circumstances.

I agree in so much that raising children is a huge task, what I strongly disagree with is that they are a burden....no, they're not - not to me and not to many parents. Please don't generalise that EVERY child is a burden because , although that may be your take on it, they actually aren't viewed that way by their parents.

Guys are genetically prone to not want to raise someone else's kid. They have done studies on this and proved it so. A man is far less likely to marry or date a woman who has children. Not all guys follow this rule, but the majority will.

Then the majority (if it is true) have NO idea what they are missing out on, and the women they won't date have probably had a lucky escape from someone too immature to deal with being an adult/parent.

[Twist Kick]

I agree in so much that raising children is a huge task, what I strongly disagree with is that they are a burden....no, they're not - not to me and not to many parents. Please don't generalise that EVERY child is a burden because , although that may be your take on it, they actually aren't viewed that way by their parents.

Do you think that a man carrying home food for his family views the heavy bag as a burden? Of course not.

But it is still a heavy thing to bear, and it still strains his muscles and hurts his back.

I say 'burden' in the general sense - as in, a child is a huge task that requires a lot from the people who are raising him/her. Admittedly, with that connotation I might have done better to choose a different term, but it seemed suitable.

Basically, whether or not one views it as troublesome, it is still a responsibility, a thing which requires your time, energy, and money, and hence is a burden, connotations aside.

I maintain my point: Pulled from www.dictionary.com :

bur·den1 http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png Audio Help (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) /ˈbɜrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngdn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bur-dn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. that which is carried; load: a horse's burden of rider and pack. 2. that which is borne with difficulty; obligation; onus: the burden of leadership.

In the metaphorical sense, a child IS a burden: it is a load that is carried with obligation and difficulty.

Even wanted, a child is an obligation, raising a child is difficult. Ergo, by dictionary definition, a child is a burden.

[puffin]

Puffin, several things.

1. Again, I reiterate, the best situation is one where the child is being raised by two capable, prepared parents, the second best is where they are being raised by one who is likewise capable and prepared and wanting a child , but in today's world, many children are raised in families that do not want them, are not capable or prepared to raise them, or who are not ready to be parent(s) but are forced into it because of social stigma.

2. Every child is a burden. You were a burden. I was a burden. Everyone here was a burden. Expected, unexpected, adopted, not-adopted, wanted, unwanted, raising a child is a burden. It varies from person to person how ready they are to shoulder said burden, but raising a child is a huge task - no matter the circumstances.

3. Guys are genetically prone to not want to raise someone else's kid. They have done studies on this and proved it so. A man is far less likely to marry or date a woman who has children. Not all guys follow this rule, but the majority will.


4. As always, saying 'I'm glad my mom didn't abort me, blah blah blah', is a pointless, baseless argument. If your mother had aborted you, you wouldn't be here arguing this. It's that damn simple.

I didnt say im glad my mum didnt abort me, i was saying i would rather not be wanted than not be here. As Bry has already pointed out it wouldnt make a difference to me if i had been cus i wouldnt be here but i am pleased most days that i am here.

As i said i couldnt care less what a man thought, my children are number 1, end off. It not a good enough argument to not have children.

And i totally agree with poison Ivy, my children are not a burden, yes they are a huge task and not all the time a bundle of joy to be around but never a burden.

[Twist Kick]

-points to her last post AGAIN for clarification of 'burden'-

And the 'if you're a single mom your chances of getting married are slimmed than a woman with no children' argument is NOT a single reason to not have kids, but an effect which any woman who is pregnant and single and trying to decide between abortion and keeping the child should consider.

[puffin]

If we are getting into quoting the meaning of burden then
Something that is carried.
2.
a. Something that is emotionally difficult to bear.
b. A source of great worry or stress; weight: The burden of economic sacrifice rests on the workers of the plant.
3. A responsibility or duty: The burden of organizing the campaign fell to me.
4. Nautical
a. The amount of cargo that a vessel can carry.
b. The weight of the cargo carried by a vessel at one time.
tr.v. bur·dened, bur·den·ing, bur·dens
1. To weigh down; oppress.
2. To load or overload

Maybe a better word may have been better tbh.

[puffin]

-points to her last post AGAIN for clarification of 'burden'-

And the 'if you're a single mom your chances of getting married are slimmed than a woman with no children' argument is NOT a single reason to not have kids, but an effect which any woman who is pregnant and single and trying to decide between abortion and keeping the child should consider.

Still disagree. A life is more important.

[Twist Kick]

Actually, seems your definition supports mine again:

a. Something that is emotionally difficult to bear.
b. A source of great worry or stress; weight:

You show me a parent who never stresses, worries, or is emotionally troubled sometimes by their children, and I'll show you either a saint or a liar.

Again - a life IS more important - one that's actually ALIVE.

When you define an unborn fetus as alive, you're just begging to step into more trouble. The right to life starts at BIRTH - the whole 'you're alive once conceived' bullshit is propaganda from controlling religious leaders that use beliefs like that to control their victims.

[Poison Ivy]

Admittedly, with that connotation I might have done better to choose a different term, but it seemed suitable.

Yes you would have because quite frankly it was a poor choice of words.


Even wanted, a child is an obligation, raising a child is difficult. Ergo, by dictionary definition, a child is a burden.

Ergo I prefer not to live by dictionary definitions (thankfully).

[Twist Kick]

Well, Poision, obviously we don't live by dictionary definitions, but in a debate one should assume that the person you're debating with means the dictionary definition, because connotations, obviously, is a dangerous assumption.

[puffin]

To weigh down; oppress

Stop picking the good ones out of the definition. We all know what burden means and it isnt a nice word to use when talking about children.

[missbettie]

I agree in so much that raising children is a huge task, what I strongly disagree with is that they are a burden....no, they're not - not to me and not to many parents. Please don't generalise that EVERY child is a burden because , although that may be your take on it, they actually aren't viewed that way by their parents.


I agree. I havn't had kids yet and I can't wait until I am ready to, but they will in no way be a burden, accident or not. Difficult yes. But in no way in hell a burden.

Just to clarify, I am definately with out a doubt pro choice, but I am not pro abortion. I believe that a women should have the right to choose to a certain point in the pregnancy to terminate...yes I am one of those peoples that considers the baby just a mass of cells until a certain point.

I do not believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control however, but if someone has made an honest to goodness mistake i.e they were taking all the proper precaucions, using protection properly, then yes i believe that abortion should be an option. But if two people are constanly having unprotected sex and being complete idiots...well perhaps that should be a different story.

If we ban abortions I feel that it will cause way more problems than not. People will try to terminate the pregnancies on their own rather than going somewhere that is safe...they are going to happen regardless, its best to regulate them...

I do want to say, at this point in my life, I would not have an abortion. I have been with my boyfriend for over 3 years, and if something happened there would be no doubt in my mind to keep the baby. It would be hard, yes, but at the end of the day, I would still have a product of a great relationship and something that I would love above all others. If I got pregnant when I was 15 with my previous boyfriend, yes I would have an abortion, there would be no doubt about that, if I got pregnant from my rape, yes I would abort. But i'm 21, should be smart enough to protect against unwanted pregnancies, and I am in a great relationship. I would definately not abort.

anyways, thats my two cents. I do respect everyone's opinions on this topic as it is so sensitive...:dizzy:

[Twist Kick]

Children? Oh, yes, because every child is a perfect little angel who never cries, never throws temper tantrums, never embarasses their parents, never does anything wrong.

Kids, like any people, range from the downright horrific to the near-perfect, with the most falling in the middle where they can be considered burdens from time to time.

Bettie - boy are you ever right. People are high-strung as hell over this, no thanks to raging hormones and millions of years of evolution.

[puffin]

Who said children were angels? No one has ever claimed that.
My children are far from perfect but for the 10th time they are not a burden. If you had children they might be for you but as we have already stated they are not a burden to us so just let it go.

[Twist Kick]

For the seven millionth time, I say 'burden' in the purely dictionary sense, by which children are, in fact, a burden.

-sighs- Jesus christ crying in a bucket! I always wind up on the damn minority side and wind up with three, four, five people on the opposite side shooting at me left and right! Bwar!!

[missbettie]

TK- Its a sensitive subject, especially with mothers and their opinions should be repected. As should yours.

My mother had my brother at 16 years old. She then married my father and they were together for a short while, and they had me at 25. My parents did not have a good relationship and got divorced, my father cheated on my mother and took me and my brother to buy drugs. Right after I was born my mom got her tubes tied AT 25!! You ask her the reason and she say, "Because I knew that I could take care of two children by myself". I have asked my mom if she regreted having my brother so young, and she said " it was hard and yes I would have waited but he has changed my life and made me the person I am"

My mother has her masters degree and is a special education teacher. She is doing great in life, is remarried and has her own house. If I grow up to be half of the women that my mother is I will be greatful.

I truly believe that while it was hard for my mom to have my brother so young, he motivated her to do better for her life. If my brother wasn't born, i don't know if my mother would have tried to do so well in her life...and she still might be with my dad, she left because she didn't want us to turn out like him...

I had a great life, and it was all do to my single mom. <3

I don't understand why the perfect situation involves two parents? why not just one?

[Twist Kick]

Well, even two parents may not be perfect if they're not both prepared, capable and ready to have and raise a child..

-sighs-

I guess I ought to just leave - people are getting obviously pretty pissed off at the crazy anti-baby chick.