Abortion

[missbettie]

Don't leave, this is a debate isn't it? you are entitled to your opinion. I agree with a lot that you are saying, but you do seem to be a bit extreme aren't ya? :p

[Twist Kick]

A bit extreme? Yeah, I'm sure right now on Puffin and Posion's list I'm about as extreme as the devil.

And it's not much of a debate when you're the only person on your side, and everyone else is after your blood beause your opinion is so 'out there' according to them.

I am kinda extreme compared to most people, but so is being vegan. So is being atheist.

I'm ruthless in my opinion, and when it comes to something where the instincts are so powerful, like children, my acid-edged personality and opinions tend to scare them shitless, or piss them off.

[missbettie]

Well, even two parents may not be perfect if they're not both prepared, capable and ready to have and raise a child..

-sighs-

I guess I ought to just leave - people are getting obviously pretty pissed off at the crazy anti-baby chick.


Well I understand that people may not be ready to have kids, couples or single but why would two people be more ideal? because of society's standards?

[Twist Kick]

Because that splits the work. Because it means that the child gets twice as much experience, twice as much affection, ect. ect. ect. Plus, if you're going to bear the responsibility of raising a child, every bit of help you can get is great. Having a partner to help you raise the kid makes it easier.

It has zilch to do with societal standards.

[Poison Ivy]

A bit extreme? Yeah, I'm sure right now on Puffin and Posion's list I'm about as extreme as the devil.

Actually you're not:) (either on my 'list' or as extreme as the devil...if you believe in that kind of thing)...up to the 'burden' thing I agreed with most of your original post.

I daresay if you'd chosen a different word to burden I probably would have let it slide, but the dictionary definition thing...that just really pisses me off wherever it's done, sorry - it's one of those things that really gets my back up...in a 'don't rely on someone else's definition, explain what you meant yourself' kind of way:)

No hard feelings??

[Twist Kick]

If I were a better person, I'd say 'Yes, no hard feelings'.. But frankly right now I'm tired of getting bombshelled for not being a big googley-eyed 'Awww!'-er whenever the topic of babies is brought to mind.

I'm just going to leave the damn thread and you lot can curse some other baby-hating satanist.

[missbettie]

but i mean the parents aren't the only people in the child's life to love them, most people have grandparents, aunts, uncles, perhaps siblings?

I received a lot of love growing up, and this is from a very unsensitive family. I did have my father in my life, but I rarely saw him and havn't for about 6 years now. I'm glad my mom wasn't with him, I'm glad she was able to do it on her own. Now I can understand that my mommy is an EXCEPTION not all single parents are like this. But I look around and a lot of my friends have kids and they love them more than I ever thought possible.

[missbettie]

jeeze, so much for civilized conversation. Poisen Ivy, you're awesome. :) that was very nice of you.

[Klytemnest]

Exactly what choice does being murdered leave a baby with? This is why I never refere to people in favor of abortion as 'Pro choice'. Your either pro life or pro abortion.

I'm all in favor of people being allowed to make their own choice. Just so long as the choices they make are not at anybody elses expense. So I don't believe ANYBODY should be allowed to kill someone else. Wether it is an animal or an unborn child.

A fetus is not a baby. In the first trimester its brain is not developed enough to be capable of awareness or sensation. It does not know it is alive, it does not feel pain. So it is very unfair and misleading to call a fetus a baby. It is not murder - it is the killing of an insensate mass of cells. And more to the point, it is the removal of this mass of cells from the body of a woman that does not wish to continue hosting it. And the reason my stance is referred to as "pro-choice" is because I believe that a woman should always have the right to her own body. Even if it means that a fetus - whether one chooses to think of it as a baby or not - will be destroyed in the process of removing it. Highjacking a woman's body, forcing her to treat it in a way she does not want it to be treated, is unjustified. Basically, my point is that one's right ot one's own body trumps anyone else's right to use of your own body. Yes, it sucks that fetuses have to be killed. I don't know anyone who delights in this. Nobody is advocating that people have more abortions. Nobody is pro-abortion. I am pro-abortion rights. I am for the right of a person to have sovereignty over their own body. If they no longer wish to host a fetus - regardless of whether it is deemed to be a person or not - they should have the right to have it removed from THEIR body.

I agree with you that people should be allowed to make decisions regarding their own lives, so long as they harm no one else. In general, yes. But here we are talking about someone or something that is residing inside the woman's body. All negative connotations aside, the fetus is a parasite living inside the woman's body.

Regardless of whether you or I think a woman ought to carry the fetus to term (and you and I may well agree on this), the fact remains that legally forcing a woman to do so would in fact be highjacking her body against her will. It would be taking her right to a vote regarding what happens to her own body away from her, and giving it to the government. I have no interest in living under a totalitarian dictatorship in which the government owns my body, do you?

Please know that I realize this is an emotional subject for many of us, and that I do not mean to antagonize; I appreciate your thoughts and your point of view and I am looking forward to a lively discussion.

Thanks,

Rami

[Poison Ivy]

Thanks MissBettie:heart::)

[puffin]

A bit extreme? Yeah, I'm sure right now on Puffin and Posion's list I'm about as extreme as the devil.

And it's not much of a debate when you're the only person on your side, and everyone else is after your blood beause your opinion is so 'out there' according to them.

I am kinda extreme compared to most people, but so is being vegan. So is being atheist.

I'm ruthless in my opinion, and when it comes to something where the instincts are so powerful, like children, my acid-edged personality and opinions tend to scare them shitless, or piss them off.

Haha, not at all. Im not pissed of, just stating my opinion to ;) I have kids so it takes more than that to make me to annoyed :D

[BlackCats]

It would be taking her right to a vote regarding what happens to her own body away from her, and giving it to the government. I have no interest in living under a totalitarian dictatorship in which the government owns my body, do you?


I agree with this 100%. Whatever the right and wrongs of abortion I just will not ever agree that anyone should decide the outcome of an unwanted pregnancy above the actual woman involved.

(Btw Poison Ivy - I agree with what missbettie said.)

[Klytemnest]

dreama;475822]The baby in the womb IS a baby. It's a living feeling being. Since killing living feeling beings is normally considered murder then I don't see anything wrong in using these terms. No I would NEVER consider someone who is in favor of abortion as pro choice because when you murder someone you take that choice away.

From what I have read, in the first trimester, when most abortions are performed, a fetus is not a feeling being. Its brain is not yet advanced enough to be capable of interpreting stimuli as pleasure or pain. So, removing a fetus, especially in the first trimester, is not the same thing as killing a cute, giggling, rosey-cheeked two-year old child. That is the first thing we need to get straight.

Murder is "unjustified killing." We all agree that it is a killing, so the issue really is justification. Is a woman justified in asserting her right to decide what happens to her own body? I think so. Is it justifiable for the government to dictate to a woman what she may or may not do to her body? I don't think so. That would be a totalitarian dictatorship, in which persons do not have sovereignty over their own bodies.

And I think most people understand this. This is why it is not surprising that often times the pro-lifers are really more interested in punishing the woman for having fornicated. They simply want her to pay the price and live with the consequences. I am not saying that this is your position, but it is a sentiment that is palpable in the debate over abortion rights and probably something that ought not be ignored. Some pro-lifers want the woman's right to her own body taken away from her as a form of punishment. And of course, in the monotheisms, one does not really have a right to one's own body. Our lives, our bodies, our talents are all gifts from God and they must be used according to his dictates - or else!

I'm all for a woman's right to do what she wants with HER body but the baby inside her is NOT part of her. It's a seperate being.

But it IS part of her. It is, technically, a parasite. It affects her body. If she no longer wants to continue hosting the parasite, she should have the right to have it removed.

What about a woman's right to have both her legs amputated because she suffers from BIID. On another site this woman is very much Pro abortion etc etc... but has apsolutely no respect for someone who needs to have their legs amputation. She isn't killing anyone. She just has a condition where she fels she needs to lose her legs. Similar to people who are transexual. Anyway this pro abortion woman who's all for 'woman's rights' was VERY judgemental about that. So it seems that they are for a woman's rights to murder babies but not any other bodily rights which I think is wrong.

I think if a person wants to have their legs amputated, they should have the right to do so - regarless of whether or not you or I think it is advisable. It's not our decision. It shouldn't be. Same thing with transgendered people. It's their life, their body.

I'm not being judgemental but MURDER is MURDER. If I wasn't against murder I wouldn't be vegan in the first place.

But we have to be clear on what murder is, dreama. We kill living cells all the time. They are all potential human beings. When we brush our teeth, or scrape our tongues, we "murder" thousands, nay, millions of cells - all of which have the potential to become human beings - through cloning. Is that murder? No. Why? Because killing a potential human being is not killing an actual human being.

The fetus is indeed alive. It indeed has human DNA. But is it a person? It has no awareness, it has no sensation. What then would cause you to categorize it as "human being?" It is the killing of a mass that would one day, several months later, become a human being, a person. But at the time the abortion is performed, it is nothing of the kind.

Second, even if the fetus were indeed deemed to be a human person, the fact is that this person is residing inside someone else's body. No one else has the right to use someone else's body against their will. I do not have the right to your heart or liver, even if my life depended on it. I do not even have the right to your blood, even if that meant I would die unless I received a blood transfusion from you. This is why blood donations are voluntary and not mandatory. We own our bodies. Ought we to give blood? Sure. If I weren't gay, I'd give blood all the time. Should it be mandatory that we give blood? Should it be mandatory that we all donate one kidney? Should it be the law that after death we should have all of our organs donated?

Our bodies belong to us. No one has the right to any part of them without our permission. That is the kind of world we live in. Therefore, it follows that a fetus - whether it be considered a human person or not - does not have the right to a woman's womb unless she consents.

Rami

[Frank]

its extremely sad that you are not able to see the difference between an abortion at 4, 6 or 10 weeks, and SIX MONTHS!

obviously those are VERY different situations.

They may well be.

My point was - it doesn't matter what you call it.

[Frank]

Twist Kick - I don't have a problem with you.

I haven't got a gripe with anyone on this forum.

Something tells me though that I should not look to settle in Texas......... :)

[sugarmouse]

I am condemend alot f the time for not going gooey over babies..but thts the product of misanthropy again I guess.
Children are people, and I am against over population and bringing more people into the world.

I am extreme in a lot of my thinking, I think I have foud someone more so in Twist Kick!Which is strange.But I do agree with her statements.

I realise its a minority view though.

regard whereas a fetus is a feeling or sentient bieng at the time of abortion...of course the sooner an abortion is performed the btter..

[dreama]

Frankly, I blame religion for the whole 'unborn babies have rights to life' thing. Religions tend to push anything that gives them more control over their subjects. It's sad, but even today in even the more liberal areas, those ideas still hang around like a blanketing fog that the sun still hasn't burned off.

Well thank god for religions then. I'm not a christian by the way. I'm totally against abortion for ethnical reasons. It's wrong to kill. If I got raped I said I would put the baby for adoption. I wouldn't WANT a baby but I would want to be a murderer even less.

Because you see I do believe that babies have a right to life wether they are born or not.

When you PM'd me you made it sound like I'm like planning to get raped just so I can have a baby. Well that's not it at all. I don't want children. That's why I'd have it adopted but I'm not turning into a murderer. I'd never forgive myself.

If I could just go to my doctor and get myself steralized to rule out all possiblility of pregnancy I'd do that instead.

[RubyDuby]

Twist kick- you may be disappointed to know your ideas aren't really that out there. A lot of people have very similar views to yours, including myself.

maybe stop anticipating a fight and just debate!

[dreama]

A fetus is not a baby. In the first trimester its brain is not developed enough to be capable of awareness or sensation. It does not know it is alive,


Sorry but this is just speculating. How do you know the baby feels nothing. Abortions are legal up to 24 months by which case the baby does feel. It may feel a long time before then. You don't know. This claim that pro abortionists that babies feel nothing, compairing them to cancer etc... its just sick.

Cancer kills, having a baby doesn't.

I believe that a woman should always keep the baby because the alternative is depriving the baby of any choice at all. If you don't like my views that's your problem not mine.

[Frank]

I'm posting this to confirm the early development stages.


Weeks One through Four
Ovulation occurs - The time is right; now you just need this egg to be fertilized!

Conception occurs - Did you know that during your pregnancy that your uterus will increase its capacity by 1000 times?!

Gender is determined - Immediately upon fertilization your little one is set as a boy or a girl. Ladies, this is one that you can't take credit for since it is up to the sperm to determine the sex of your baby. Sperm carries either a "X" (girl) chromosome or a "Y" (boy) chromosome. (*Hint:* You will have to hold off on picking out the pink or blue until at least the second trimester when the gender will be visible via ultrasound.)

Implantation - Some spotting (also known as implantation bleeding) may occur about 10 - 14 days after conception. You may believe you are starting your period but generally this bleeding is extremely light and lasts only a day or so.

Neural tube forms - It will develop into the nervous system (Brain, spinal cord, hair, and skin). Already your baby has the foundation for thought, senses, feeling, and more!

Heart and primitive circulatory system rapidly form - While still in its beginning stages, this is the very life support system that will carry your child throughout his or her life.


Week Five
First heartbeats begin - If you have an early ultrasound you may not be able to recognize this tiny being as a baby, but there is no mistaking what it feels like seeing your child's heartbeat on that screen. That rhythmic beat is echoed in your own heart.

Umbilical cord develops - This is your baby's lifeline in utero. It bears the responsibility of pumping in oxygen, removing waste, and supplying the necessary nutrients for the remainder of your pregnancy.

Blood is now pumping - All four heart chambers are now functioning, insuring your baby's body will receive all it needs over not only the remainder of your pregnancy but throughout life.

Most other organs begin to develop - Your infant's lungs start to appear, along with her brain. Already your little one is preparing for a quest for lifelong learning!

Arm and leg buds appear - While they may not appear to be much at this stage it is ok to dream of the future. Just imagine your ballerina twirling and jumping around your kitchen floor. Or perhaps you will have the precocious boy that throws the perfect pitch -- right through the neighbor's window.


Week Six
The arms and legs continue to develop - These limbs are stretching out more and more. Later on you will be feeling those feet and elbows up close and personal right in your bladder!

Brain is growing well - Did you know that over the course of the remaining months that your baby's brain will develop over 100 billion neurons? This is just the beginning!

Lenses of the eyes appear - If you could catch a glimpse inside, you would notice your baby's appearance becoming increasing like a newborn's.

Nostrils are formed - The position of the nose seems to shift into its proper place as well. Soon, the nerves running from the nose to the brain appear.
Intestines grow - Initially these are actually located outside the baby's body within the umbilical cord.

Pancreas - Your baby is now equipped to deal with digestive enzymes and take on processing the insulin and glucagons the body needs to function.


Week Seven
Elbows form - Again, taking a peek inside you could see your baby's fascination with bending and flexing. Later you will swear you can enlist your child as the star of the next "Karate Kid" movie!

Fingers start to develop - These digits often become your baby's first toy!
Feet start to appear with tiny notches for the toes - It is fascinating that at less than a half inch, your little guy (or gal) already is leaving "footprints" on your heart!

Ears eyes and nose start to appear - Although they may resemble an alien life form, these all "shift" soon enough into a more normal appearance.
Intestines start to form in the umbilical cord - Did you know that initially the intestines are not formed inside your baby's body?

Teeth begin to develop under the gums - Thankfully, right now you won't be dealing with teething pain!


Week Eight
Cartilage and bones begin to form - At the end of this week your baby will have already completed 1/5th of the journey 'til his birthday!

The basic structure of the eye is well underway - The position is more "newborn" like already!

The tongue begins to develop

Intestines move out of the umbilical cord into the abdomen.

Body grows and makes room - Two months along and this little one is growing inside and out by leaps and bounds!

The fingers and toes have appeared but are webbed and short
Baby's length (crown to rump) is 0.61 inch (1.6cm) and weight is 0.04 ounce (1gm)


Week Nine
Baby has begun movement - While still too small for you to feel, your little one is wriggling, shifting, and dancing already! Makes you almost wish for a window to peek in whenever you want!

Most joints are formed now - and trust that your little one is practicing bending and flexing.

Fetus will curve its fingers around an object placed in the palm of its hand - This is amazing to see! At only nine weeks, if you happen to have an ultrasound, you may observe your infant fascinated by everything he or she can lay their fingers on (mainly other fingers, toes, ears and nose!

Fingerprints are already evident in the skin

Average size this week -- length 0.9 inch (2.3cm), weight 0.07 ounce (2gm)


Week Ten
Baby is now called a fetus in "medical terms". You, however, may have chosen the name "peanut," "angel," "jumping bean" or simply "miracle."

The most critical part of your infant's development is complete. Now you are headed into a period of rapid growth.

While a bit strange to envision, your baby's head is now about half its length - Soon the rest of the body's growth will catch up but this area is prepared to keep up with the rapid brain development!

Eyelids fuse shut and irises begin to develop - Eye color is also determined by this point.

Placenta begins to function this week or next - The placenta is the organ responsible for both the provision of nutrients along with the removal of waste to keep your baby growing strong!

Your baby will be about 1.22 inch long (3.1cm) and weigh 0.14 ounce (4gm) at the end of this week


Week Eleven
Nearly all structures and organs are formed and beginning to function.
Fingers and toes have separated - Take a glimpse at how incredibly precious your child's tiny feet are at this point.

Hair and nails begin to grow.

The genitals begin to take on the proper gender characteristics - It will be just a few more weeks before your ultrasound can show if you are having a boy or a girl! Have you been dreaming of pink or blue?

Amniotic fluid begins to accumulate as the kidneys begin to function - This fluid, consisting primarily of water, helps provide a cushion for your baby while she's nestled within your womb.

The muscles in the intestinal walls begin to practice contractions that digest food.

Your baby is about 1.61 inches (4.1 cm) long and weighs 0.25 ounce (7gm).


Week Twelve
Vocal cords begin to form - While perhaps not quite ready to be introduced to the nearest opera stage, your infant will use these immediately following the moment of birth. Bet you can't wait to hear that first cry!

Those precious eyes begin to move closer together - Are you wondering if he will have mommy's crystal green eyes, daddy's laughing brown ones, or maybe out of the gene pool will emerge grandma's clear blue!

Ears shift to their normal place on the side of the head.

Intestines move farther in to your child's body.

His or her liver begins to function - Responsible for cleansing the blood, storing nutrients, and providing needed chemicals, this is an important event!

The pancreas begins to produce insulin.

Guess what? Your baby's average size is now at a whopping length: 2.13 inches (5.4cm) and weight: 0.49 ounce (14gm)


Week Thirteen
Your infant is about 2.91 inches (7.4cm) and weighs around 0.81 ounce (23gm) - This is about the same weight as 4 quarters.

If you could peek in again you may spot your baby as he begins to practice inhaling and exhaling movements.

Eyes and ears continue to move and develop.

Baby's neck is getting longer, and the chin no longer is resting on his chest.

Her hands are becoming more functional - Your baby may find it comforting to start playing with her fist.

At this point all nourishment is received from the placenta.

On your next doctor visit you should be able to hear heartbeat with a Doppler by now - (Don't worry though if you can't, the heartbeat can be confirmed through U/S). Your baby's heartbeat is much rapider than your own and may remind you of the race towards birth that he is running!


Week Fourteen
Thyroid gland has matured and your baby begins producing hormones which will be used throughout his or her life.

In boys, the prostate gland develops.

In girls, the ovaries move from the abdomen to the pelvis.

Your little one may have learned to suck his thumb by this point!

Your child's bones are getting harder and stronger by the day!

Your baby's skin is very transparent still.

Lanugo (very fine hair) covers the baby's body and will continue to grow until 26 weeks gestational age - Generally this will be shed prior to birth. Its purpose is to help protect baby's skin while in all that water!

Your baby is 3.42 inches (8.7cm) long and weighs about 1.52 ounces (43 grams) - approximately the weight of a letter!


If you go to source at:

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment1.php

You will be able to see the photographs at each stage.

[dreama]

Murder is "unjustified killing." We all agree that it is a killing, so the issue really is justification. Is a woman justified in asserting her right to decide what happens to her own body?

She can do what she wants with her body but the baby is NOT part of her body so she doesn't have the right to kill it. NO it is NOT a potential human being. The FACT is the baby in an the womb is as much a human as I am now. I don't know when this starts and to be honest I don't feel as strongly about woman using morning after pill although I know other pro lifers are against it but as soon as the baby develops a body that baby is human as far as I'm concerned. Not a bundle of cells, certainly not a cancer. But a REAL human so we should respect that baby as much.

And I think most people understand this. This is why it is not surprising that often times the pro-lifers are really more interested in punishing the woman

What about the woman who committed suicide because her boyfriend had presurized her into having an abortion and she didn't really want one. What about her twins who WERE murdered when she really did want them after all.

I have no interest in punishing anybody. I just wish that we didn't live in a society that compaires cancer cells with human beings who's only fault it seems is they haven't as yet left the womb. And who is all this WE anyway.

for having fornicated.

She can fornicate as often as she likes, as I'm not religious that aspect doesn't bother me, but she has to either get herself steralized or accept responsibility for her actions. By not murdering her baby. If she kills a baby at 6 months old it's legally permitted if she waited until after the baby was born then she would go to prison. There is not a lot of differance between a 24 week baby in womb and a newly born baby out of one.


I think if a person wants to have their legs amputated, they should have the right to do so - regarless of whether or not you or I think it is advisable. It's not our decision. It shouldn't be. Same thing with transgendered people. It's their life, their body.


We agree on something at least.

[Frank]

If she kills a baby at 6 months old it's legally permitted if she waited until after the baby was born then she would go to prison. There is not a lot of differance between a 24 week baby in womb and a newly born baby out of one.

That's true with that legal side.

Similar law situation in society for animals.

If I go into a farmyard and slit the throat of a farmers animal I would get done for a host of things, the least probably being animal cruelty.

Yet take it into a shed and slit its throat and chop it into small pieces and then share the bits out with other people who will then sit down burn the body parts and then eat them.

Guess what?

Nothing.

There's always an imbalance in society.

People will fight corners until they achieve success in what they believe in.

Where you live in this world almost dictates a majority argument too - and the way the world goes with religion and governments - anything is possible.

In the meantime, we've got our forum...

[dreama]

That's so true Frank. There is so much legalized cruelty. It is very sad.

[snivelingchild]

Abortions are legal up to 24 months

I highly doubt that ;)

[Frank]

In the UK it is 24 weeks - but it can be increased to 39 weeks if the baby carries a disability.

Some children survive from 21/22 weeks onwards.