Abortion

[Geoff]

Also, if someone is going to call himself "pro-life" he should also be against the death penalty, war, euthanasia, and all forms of killing humans.

I'd call myself 'pro life' but circumstances can always alter cases. I'm against the death penalty under any cicumstances but have carried a weapon on active service, been reponsible for euthanasing animals and, having witnessed one, am 'anti abortion'. I think it possible to be anti abortion yet not always condemn those that do it.
I would much prefer that the women's movement stopped sceaming for free abortion on demand and supported free contraceptive information instead, thus reducing the need for abortion.

[Hasha]

This planet is way, way overpopulated as it is. If only those humans who actually wanted children were having children, there would still be too many humans around. So, why on earth should anyone be forcing women who don't want children to have children is beyond me... :rolleyes:

[snivelingchild]

I would much prefer that the women's movement stopped sceaming for free abortion on demand and supported free contraceptive information instead, thus reducing the need for abortion.

I would like to know what sorts of groups do this, because planned parenthood here in the US (which I support heavily) and other sorts of pro-choice groups are pushing for free sexual health options of ALL kinds. They are fighting things like Bush pushing abstinance and completely ignore sex education and unplanned pregnancy prevention. In fact, not to long ago in the paper, a group like planned parenthood were pushing to improve spending on such education and access to sex healthcare, but it was shot down by republicans, though I don't know why because it seems these efforts would help reduce abortions.

Every womans group I know of pushes for a woman's right to have access to birth control and to be sterilized. All these are things I support.

I will also reiterate for those who may not read the massive pages ealrier in the thread that our ethics should guide us to be responsible for our actions. This means preventing unwanted pregnancies as much as possible. It also means that if one does become pregnant, they should take responsibility for what will happen. To me, deciding whether you can provide a good life for a child, or deciding to stop the life early (in the first trimester when over 99% of abortions occur, before doctors believe a fetus to have a developed brain and capacity for pain) to prevent a child from entering a life if the parent does not believe the resources for a good life would be available to it, or to take the initiative to find an adoptive family to take care of a child before the child is born. Some find this sort of belongs in the same category as euthanasia, since it requires additional consideration. Someone may also feel it responsible to painlessly end an unborn life, no matter what the condition, since they might feel it irresponsible to bring a life into an overcrowded life.

I do not necessarily agree with all the opinion I spoke of, so please do not debate me if you disagree, debating the issue. I am saying these to show that one who has an abortion is not necessarily just ignoring ethics, but might have some that lead them to a different conclusion to those who believe a human life should never be ended.

[cwih57]

Well said SC, abstinance only sex ed is the stupidest thing ever imagined. I believe that any woman should have the option of abortion any time during the first 13 weeks of pregnancy, I do not however think it should be free of cost, it is a minor surgery and should be treated as a serious deciesion, Insurence company should have to cover it, but there should be at least a minimal cost, so that qaulified and skilled doctors perform the service. The current cost of 500 dollars (in the Twin cities Area) is a little bit excesive for a procedure that take 10 minutes. I also wish we had made greater stride for free contraceptives, above and beyond condoms.

[greenworlds]

Do you think it would have been ok for your mother to have had an abortion with you? if so how much should she have paid?
abortion is such a destructive thing to do...disregarding a human being at the very start of it's journey..WOW even vegans disregarding human live. ( shaking head)

[cwih57]

Yes, If my mother was not in an emotional or finacial position to give me the love and care a baby needs, I would have encouraged her to have an abortion. It is not a disregard for life, but in fact concern for life, every child deserves to have a happy life with parents that love and provide for them. Most anti-choice people are the same people that want to cut welfare benifits and state funded healthcare, they seem to have all kinds of concern for "life" before it born but could care less what happens after that child is born and has actual feelings and needs.

[snivelingchild]

Exactly. I see it as irresponsible and disrespectful to birth a child into the world who would not have a life full of love, caring, and the proper resources. A parent must make the difficult choice, just as someone who is caring for a slowly dying or barely living person, to determine whether life or no life would be better in thier situation. Sometimes, end a life before consciousness, pain, and emotion are there is a better choice. Who can know? No one. Who has the best perspective to know which is probably better? The parent(s) or a complete stranger?

[Astrocat]

I would much prefer that the women's movement stopped sceaming for free abortion on demand and supported free contraceptive information instead, thus reducing the need for abortion.

Here in the UK both contraceptive advice and contraception (hormone-altering pills for women, or condoms for either gender) are available for free to anyone who wants them.

Of course, since contraception is fairly unreliable (especially for people who are drunk, particularly for those on the pill who throw up fairly often from alcoholic overdose which includes a huge number of Brits) the abortion rate is still ridiculously high.


This planet is way, way overpopulated as it is. If only those humans who actually wanted children were having children, there would still be too many humans around. So, why on earth should anyone be forcing women who don't want children to have children is beyond me

Absolutely.
If somebody is going to criticise another person for not considering abortion to be irrefutably intolerable and wrong and would support legally forcing people who have had contraceptive accidents to have babies which they don't want and can;t support, then i would imagine that the criticisers would be willing to adopt one child for every woman who they criticise ? After all, who else would they be expecting should raise the child ? The so-called care-system, or the mother who doesn;t want and can;t afford to have the child & who has tried her best not to have one ?

Obviously some people do adopt children but clearly there is an excess of kids put into the Care System even as it is, with abortion legal.

Although many people who adopt kids are adopted by loving families, many do end up in inappropriate or abusive homes, are bounced from one home to the next in a string or are abused by workers within the "Care" system.
Many of them live in the "Care" system for their whole lives before being kicked out aged 16 and roaming the streets with no family, background or feeling of purpose in their life.

Of course, people oughtn;t to use abortion like birth-control, but it would seem that only someone with sociopathic or similarly disturbed tendencies would even consider such a thing when there are several other kinds of contraception available.

if my mother was not in an emotional or finacial position to give me the love and care a baby needs, I would have encouraged her to have an abortion. It is not a disregard for life, but in fact concern for life, every child deserves to have a happy life with parents that love and provide for them.

I agree completely.

Re: artificial pregnancy
IVF is a great deal worse than abortion as far as disregard for human life goes, quite apart from the fact that a couple are creating their own children artificially instead of adopting unwanted children, since of course IVF involves fertilising many eggs then choosing the "premium" ones to implant in the woman involved while letting the "inferior ones" die.
They used to pretend that this wasn;t the case to begin with, but it has been openly admitted for a very long time that this in fact is the case.

[Geoff]

Exactly. I see it as irresponsible and disrespectful to birth a child into the world who would not have a life full of love, caring, and the proper resources.

So all children in many parts of the 'third world' should be aborted?

[snivelingchild]

Well, I object to calling it aborting children. I am not the person to say what should happen in these cases, but if the parents feel they could not support (and I mean support in a number of ways, not just financial) a future child, I find that perfectly ethical, as they are trying to prevent an unhappy unprovided-for life. I do think procreating is somthing important enough to be given serious consideration. However, if persons do live in such a inpovershed area, they probably have no access to any type of sex health care, including abortion clinics or contraceptives, so that's probably not an applicable situation such as, say, someone below the poverty line in the US or UK.

[greenworlds]

Have you talked with mothers who regret having had an abortion and have to carry the guilt with them all their lifes..wondering how the child would of been had she let he or she live? birthdays etc? Some even have another child to replace the one aborted. I'd hope that vegans at least wouldn't feel the need to abort, more civilied ppl in the world has to be a good thing surely?
just trying to look at the bigger picture
Exactly. I see it as irresponsible and disrespectful to birth a child into the world who would not have a life full of love, caring, and the proper resources. A parent must make the difficult choice, just as someone who is caring for a slowly dying or barely living person, to determine whether life or no life would be better in thier situation. Sometimes, end a life before consciousness, pain, and emotion are there is a better choice. Who can know? No one. Who has the best perspective to know which is probably better? The parent(s) or a complete stranger?

[snivelingchild]

Every pregnant woman considering abortion must decide whether or not it is right for them. People make mistakes, some more important than others. The majority of women do not feel this way. Should it be illegal or considered unethical because some of the women feel they made the wrong decision?

[cwih57]

Exactly, People regret desicions of all kinds, that doesn't make it a regrettable decision for everybody. I do not regret either of my abortions. I regret wasting my time going to University, Does that make University a regrettable decision for everybody?

The agruement that because 3rd world countries have babies that they can't take care of is irrelevant. They don't have access to birth control, abortion, or the information to make a informed decision. People in developed countries do. It is one thing to bring children into bad circumstances when you do not have the power or knowledge to stop it. Bring children into bad circumstances when you have both the knowledge and power to stop it, that is inexcusable.

[drummer]

You can call me old-fashioned, but I don't believe in murdering unborn children because the mother is selfish to her own wants. Babies don't care if their mothers are poor so being poor is no excuse. Saying that 'it's not the right time' is just selfish. It is a shame that babies and children have no rights when it comes to this. Mothers are allowed to legally murder their children.
The only instance where I could see that abortion could be justified is if the woman wanting the abortion became pregnant by being raped. That is the only excuse I see that can justify murdering her child becuase it was forced on her, she didn't give consent. If you have sex, it's your responsibility. If you don't want to be responsible for you actions, don't have sex - then you can't get pregnant and kill you own flesh and blood.
I am pregnant at the moment and I can't even imagine killing the life that is growing inside me. He or She is another person, a being and I have no say whether he or she gets to live or not - of course I will give birth and not murder my baby. To me, abortion is just as criminal as murdering an adult, murder is muder.

[Geoff]

From an article on Animal Rights on the mettanet.org site:

Buddhism also offers definite and positive instructions with regard to the manner in which humans should develop universal loving kindness towards all living things that exist in the universe, whether in close proximity or at a distance, seen or unseen, large or small, fierce or timid. Even those seeking to come into existence [ sambhavesã ] like foetal bodies of unborn babies or those in the stage of eggs are encompassed within this range of universal loving kindness or mettà in Buddhism. It specifies this attitude thus declaring ' May all beings be well and happy' [ Sabbe sattà bhavantu sukhitattà ].

[snivelingchild]

You can call me old-fashioned, but I don't believe in murdering unborn children because the mother is selfish to her own wants. Babies don't care if their mothers are poor so being poor is no excuse. Saying that 'it's not the right time' is just selfish. It is a shame that babies and children have no rights when it comes to this. Mothers are allowed to legally murder their children.
The only instance where I could see that abortion could be justified is if the woman wanting the abortion became pregnant by being raped. That is the only excuse I see that can justify murdering her child becuase it was forced on her, she didn't give consent. If you have sex, it's your responsibility. If you don't want to be responsible for you actions, don't have sex - then you can't get pregnant and kill you own flesh and blood.
I am pregnant at the moment and I can't even imagine killing the life that is growing inside me. He or She is another person, a being and I have no say whether he or she gets to live or not - of course I will give birth and not murder my baby. To me, abortion is just as criminal as murdering an adult, murder is muder.

You said you have no say as to whether they live or not, and that the fetus should be allowed to develop into a child and be born no matter how the mother feels. This is placing more importance on the child than the mother, just as an abortion places more importance on the mother than the child (let me explain: if the mother does not want to give birth for her own reasons, she is placing more worth on her than the child; if the mother does not want the child to suffer, she is placing herself in a position that she is important enough to make that decision for the "child"). The cold hard truth is that when there is an unwanted pregnancy, the mother must choose between herself and the child. I specualte (correct me if anyone feels otherwise) that one who is against abortion may be so because they think of the child as more important since they are considered innocent and the mother is the one who caused the life (excluding rape) in the first place (not placing all the causation on her, there was a father too). This would lead one to the conclusion that the mother must live up to her responsibilities and birth the child no matter what.

Now let me explain a little why I do not see it this way. To me, whenever one considers abortion, they must try to choose the lesser of two evils. I believe both choices contain evils since anyone considering abortion forsees negative consequences for birthing the child, be it for her, the child, or otherwise. Let me focus right now on a situation where a woman does not want to birth a child for her own reasons. (one may argue whether or not preventing a bad life for the child is for the mother or the child)

The evil of an abortion is that you are ending a life where the life cannot consent to it. In this evil, a life without consciousness or feeling is ended.

In the "evil" of birthing the child, the mother is hurt. This could be in the act of childbirth itself that the mother is forced to go through for the child to live, or that the mothers life is changed forever, or any number of reasons. However, this life is a fully developed life, that will feel the full repercussions of the choice to have the child. Yes, a life being changed or hurt physically or emotionally is not as bad as a life being ended, but the life being ended has not yet begun, and will not experience anything consciously. Yes, this is being selfish and putting one's needs over anothers, but the mother would be hurt more, in my opinion, than the fetus.

Basically, I feel the mother to be more important (an opinion no one should ever have to have, putting one life over another, but this chioce is required every day) because she has more of a life than the fetus.

To me, this issue is very far from veganism in its aspect of animals. In regards to veganism, I think it is wrong to kill an animal regardless of consciousness or pain because it does not hurt you to not kill. If a woman does not want a child, no matter the reason, it will hurt her to not end the fetus' life, thus the necessity (in my opinion) for the choice between the two.

Also, as I said before, I do not think that birthing the child is the only way to act responsibly after an unwanted pregnancy. An abortion or an adoption before the child is born (depending on what the mother chooses) is taking control of the situation and acting responsibly. A mother may birth a child and not take care of it at all.

And, as much of a cliche as this sounds, a pregnancy has to do with a woman's body and she should be in charge of what happens to it. If she cannot have an abortion if her pregnancy is unwanted, she is being FORCED to go through the long process of pregnancy and childbirth. It's not as though the whole process takes 10 minutes. Someone else is deciding for her what she has to go through.

And I do feel that the last thing a confused woman needs when she is lost and confused about her unwanted pregnancy is that the fetus is more important than her, which may lead her to feelings of worthlessness and undeserving because she made a mistake.

[snivelingchild]

I would just like to add that this whole issue would be completely different if a fetus could be taken from the mother alive and able to be carried and birthed by another person or by other means. That is just not the case, and the biology of the matter cannot be ignored.

In case what I have said on previous pages was misleading, let me clarify by saying I would never consider it wrong for a woman to wantingly birth a child. One may consider it responsible or irresponsible, but that is just one's opinions on the situation and should have no bearing on the woman's choice.

[veganblue]

You can call me old-fashioned, but I don't believe in murdering unborn children because the mother is selfish to her own wants. Babies don't care if their mothers are poor so being poor is no excuse. Saying that 'it's not the right time' is just selfish. It is a shame that babies and children have no rights when it comes to this. Mothers are allowed to legally murder their children.
The only instance where I could see that abortion could be justified is if the woman wanting the abortion became pregnant by being raped. That is the only excuse I see that can justify murdering her child becuase it was forced on her, she didn't give consent. If you have sex, it's your responsibility. If you don't want to be responsible for you actions, don't have sex - then you can't get pregnant and kill you own flesh and blood.
I am pregnant at the moment and I can't even imagine killing the life that is growing inside me. He or She is another person, a being and I have no say whether he or she gets to live or not - of course I will give birth and not murder my baby. To me, abortion is just as criminal as murdering an adult, murder is muder.

I was a little puzzled at the apparent contradiction in the last statement;
if abortion is murder, then you seem to be sanctioning murder in the event of the mother being raped.

It's a very complicated issue and very hard to make a black and white distinction; would you then get mothers wanting abortions crying rape once they realised they were pregnant knowing that it was the only way to get a medically approved abortion; in effect destroying the father's life at the same time (in the event that he could be identified).

In countries where backyard abortion is practised since there are prohibitions in place, women can be horribly damaged in the process of stimulating spontaneous abortions - right or wrong, this is something that could be
avoided.

I don't equate a foetus with a fully grown human. I would mourn for the passing of my adult sister than I would an aborted sibling - it is a very different thing. If it were me aborted - I wouldn't even be here to have an opinion or to be able to care either way. I certainly would not have had the consciousness to understand suffering that I do as an adult.

[veganblue]

I would just like to add that this whole issue would be completely different if a fetus could be taken from the mother alive and able to be carried and birthed by another person or by other means. That is just not the case, and the biology of the matter cannot be ignored.

Interestingly I was listening to a report a few days ago about the science in invitro gestation being very close to being a reality. An aborted foetus could be brought to term in the future.

The technology is for troubled pregnancies where the baby is either very premature or the mother is at risk. It would be possible to fertilise invitro and bring a baby fully to term outside the body.

Science fiction is rapidly becoming science fact.

[John]

In vitro gestation close to being a reality? I'm sure that they will come up with some good uses for that, won't they?

[veganblue]

My worst nightmare includes a "The Matrix" scenario where animals are bred and kept in a farmed gestatorium.

Too expensive to do full scale, but what about encephathelic organisms that are created purely for protein. All sounds pretty horrible.

[greenworlds]

And I do feel that the last thing a confused woman needs when she is lost and confused about her unwanted pregnancy is that the fetus is more important than her, which may lead her to feelings of worthlessness and undeserving because she made a mistake.[/QUOTE]

I don't mean to sound harsh here..but if a woman has sex , surely she can conclude that a pregnancy could happen? maybe a girl kept in the dark; might not realise it..but grown women do know that. I know there are exceptions..but far and few between surely.

[Hasha]

I don't mean to sound harsh here..but if a woman has sex , surely she can conclude that a pregnancy could happen? maybe a girl kept in the dark; might not realise it..but grown women do know that. I know there are exceptions..but far and few between surely.

The idea of a child being its mother's punishment for her irresponsible sexual behavior really bothers me. Not just from the mother's perspective, but also (and especially!) from the child's perspective.

[DoveInGreyClothing]

I'm an agnostic, I've took the morning after pill on one occasion(one night stand/burst condom) but I don't think I could go through with an abortion myself.
However, as far as other women having the operation goes, I'm not going to outrightly condemn their decision, I'm sure they had their reasons, but abortion on demand is a step too far.
In the UK atm, so far as I know, 2 doctors must counsell and assess that a woman is in the right mental state to make the decision to have an abortion. I do not think this should be done away with.
Sniveling child made an interesting point about ivf. Do you know that for some couples with medical conditions this can be free on the nhs? I reckon that should be done away with as a waste of nhs money and adoption practices encouraged instead. I also think that the morning after pill should be more readily available (there's a difference between a few cells and a foetus imho). It's not a solution, but a step in the right direction.

[John]

I can understand the viewpoint of anti-abortion people because yes, an abortion does kill a human embryo or fetus. However, in our society a free woman must have control over her own body.

If people believe that humans should have a right to life, then they should begin by calling for the right to life of people who have already been born. If all humans have an inalienable right to life, then no human should ever be killed by a prison or a police officer or a soldier or a civilian for any reason.
In our society humans do not have a right to life.