Abortion

[greenworlds]

As for discouraging it, that’s where we differ. I won’t try to change your mind, I respect your right to believe as you see fit; but I believe life begins at the moment of conception. It logically follows (to those who believe as I do) that self-defense (as in a case where a pregnancy endangers the life of a mother to be) is the only obvious morally acceptable reason for choosing to have an abortion, but certainly not the only morally acceptable reason.[/QUOTE]

I agree that life begins at conception for where else could it begin? if ppl say that it is alright to end a humans life in the very early stages of his or hers life because the poor soul has not devoloped consciousness or feelings ( that is debatable in itself) then thats seems to me to be the very reason to let him or her live...how can it be justified to end someones life at such a vunerable stage in their lives?...maybe theres a little ..."out of sight ,out of mind"... going on there..all in all I find pro- abortionists overall views a little demorallizing. I don't want to judge etc........ Who knows....somewhere in this creation all the people that have been cut off before they had a chance to live their lives here on earth ..might be living their lives in some other existences and meet the parents/doctors etc after death and say Hi Thanks a lot! etc . If someone's going to start a painting or build a house or anything and it was destroyed just at the the first brush stroke or the first brick etc...would it be ok to say well it wasn't a painting of it wasn't a house so it is ok the detroy them? not the best analogy, as we have to be worth more then a house or painting surely? or are we just worthless pieces of matter/ atoms etc? I think not!

[mattd]

I agree that life begins at conception for where else could it begin? if ppl say that it is alright to end a humans life in the very early stages of his or hers life because the poor soul has not devoloped consciousness or feelings ( that is debatable in itself) then thats seems to me to be the very reason to let him or her live...how can it be justified to end someones life at such a vunerable stage in their lives?...maybe there a little ...out of sight ,out of mind... going on there..all in all I find pro- abortionists overall views a little demorallizing. Who knows....somewhere in this creation all the people that have been cut off before they had a chance to live their lives here on earth ..might be living their lives in some other existences and meet the parents/doctors etc after death and say Hi etc. enough said for now

the moment at which "life begins" is highly debatable. when does the life cease to be part of the host and becomes a sentient being all it's own? no one can know, and it's probably a waste of time to debate it.

by pro-abortionists do you mean pro-choice? cause there's a huge difference there. i don't think there's very many people in this world that think abortion is a good thing. it's just not very practical to make it illegal. it's far more practical to stop the need for abortion before it comes up. if the conservatives in washington weren't so embarrased about their own sexual proclivities maybe we could actually have decent sex education in schools and plenty of free birth control available to those who can't afford it.

[VeganMan]

if the conservatives in washington weren't so embarrased about their own sexual proclivities maybe we could actually have decent sex education in schools and plenty of free birth control available to those who can't afford it.
Amen!

[VeganMan]

are we just worthless pieces of matter/ atoms etc? I think not!
My point exactly!

[snivelingchild]

we have to be worth more then a house or painting surely? or are we just worthless pieces of matter/ atoms etc? I think not!

Well, people differ on this. I don't consider us to be worth something just because we have life. Trees have life, parasites have life. To me, what makes us so valuable is our minds, for that is who we are. Of course, no one (in their RIGHT mind) would kill a tree for no good reason, just as no one (in their RIGHT mind) would kill a fetus for no good reason. If there was a tree whose roots were destroying my houses foundation, then I would very much consider killing it, and probably would. No one knows how much damage it would do. It could ruin the whole house, or make a small crack in the wall that someone would grow to admire, but it is that person's choice what to do with the tree, and I view no choice that that they make (whether to remove it or leave it) immoral. Now, if there were an unexpected tree sprouting up out in the yard in the perfect place, most people would keep it there.

It just depends on how you view different forms of life. Some people who eat meat do so because, all though the animals are conscious feeling beings, they still don't view them as important. I don't view a fetus with no consciousness or feeling (in my opinion, many people who think we all have souls, for example, might feel differently) as much different as a tree. Where I am now, if a tree were to come along, it would probably be too close to the house, though I would take deep consideration of the tree. Who knows? Perhaps the tree would just happen to come in in the perfect place.

[snivelingchild]

So perhaps whether or not an abortion is moral is not the point, because it depends on how we view a fetus. Perhaps that is what we should specifically be discussing?

On a somewhat related topic, my boyfriend just said, "Would killing an undevelped tree be an arbortion?" Feel free to comment on what a bad joke that is. I did. :D

[VeganMan]

Hi Snivels.

Well, people differ on this. I don't consider us to be worth something just because we have life. Trees have life, parasites have life. To me, what makes us so valuable is our minds, for that is who we are.

I agree but I think you’re missing something; your view focuses on the moment in time at which the decision is made. A tree, a parasite and a fetus all do have life and it’s even possible that neither has any more consciousness than the other at the moment; but what about the future, that’s what this is really about. The future of a tree is to be a bigger tree, the future of a parasite is to cause harm to its host, the future of a fetus is to develop into a sentient being. A case in point is my earlier post:

From what I was told of my father, he wanted my mother to have an abortion because he felt my birth would interrupt his plans. The way it was told to me (by friends of his) he told her that if she didn't, he would not only leave but make sure she never got a dime in child support. Unfortunately for me and my mother, he kept to his word on both counts.

Thank God my mother made the right choice!

If my mother thought like you, my father would have gotten his way and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Abortion has always been a sensitive issue for me; it should be obvious why.

My feelings on the subject were actually the catalyst that led to my going vegan. I used to eat a lot of eggs and my wife made fun of me. She would ask, “Are you enjoying you’re aborted chicken fetuses?” I had previously believed that eggs from the supermarket were never fertilized. When my wife told me that many were, it got me thinking. Then a little research led me to the horrible abuse of egg laying chickens and the connection between veal and the dairy industry and the rest, as they say, was history.

[snivelingchild]

the future of a fetus is to develop into a sentient being.

I understand that, but that doesn't change things in my mind. When the decision to have an abortion is made, the fetus is still this way, so it does not feel any pain or stress, and will never develop into a feeling person. At this point I think it is still relevent to decide whether or not you want to bring this life into the world. Of course the fetus has the potential to turn into a thinking feeling person, just the same as a sperm has the potential to fertilize an egg, and each sperm would have a different future if allowed to join with an egg and develop. An abortion is preventing a sentient, conscious life just as birth control is, and just as a woman does if she is raped or her birth control fails and she gets plan B. I think it is the responsibility of a parent or potential parent to control the life that comes into being.

I'm sorry this is such a touchy subject for you, but I don't view what the fetus may develop into as important. I also view those billboards that say "Choose abortion. Aren't you glad your mother did?" as irrelevant. Unless they are horribly depressed, of course they would be glad they have life, but that is after they are formed. A fetus with no consciousness has no wish of whether or not they want it. I view a fetus as before the real life begins. I can't really think of how to put what I'm thinking into words.

The best way I can think to put it is that a fetus is life without existence. Just as my not having unprotected sex this moment may form a child, and that is a person that will never come into existance, a fetus that is aborted is another person who will never come into existance. Though all people are good things, that does not mean we should have as many as we can. I am glad there are so many potential people that never come into existance, through abortions and eggs and sperm that are not used. With abortion, though, there is the sad part that a life has already been created that will be ended, though I view this as life on the level of a tree or any other non-conscious life form and it's destruction is a must through choosing between the fetus and the mother. Does that make sense? I think the phrase life without existence pretty much sums up my opinions. Though not literary accurate, since of course a fetus EXISTS, I think it adequately describes conscious existence (you know, I think therefore I am ;) ). Basically, it is irrelevant if consciousness may exist at one point since life is ended before it does.

I hope that makes sense.

[Hasha]

Unless they are horribly depressed, of course they would be glad they have life, but that is after they are formed. A fetus with no consciousness has no wish of whether or not they want it.

I like that one, Sniv. You know, I was once in this sex ed workshop and the gynecologist said that when you get pregnant, the fetus isn't asking to be born. But if you choose to keep it, then you will have a child that will have all the needs that any other child has, regardless of whether you were ready for it or not. That is something that I very much agree with. If you get pregnant, you need to decide whether you are ready to be a parent at that moment. If you bring a child into the world and can't fulfill its needs, then you did something irresponsible by having it. (And, yes, I know there is the possibility of giving the child up for adoption, but as someone already said, let's find homes for all the children already born first.)

[Hasha]

About all this 'aren't you glad your mother didn't have an abortion' thing. For fully formed humans, the idea that they could easily never have been born can be somewhat troublesome, upsetting... But actually, that goes for any one of us, whether our mother nearly had an abortion or was absolutely thrilled when she found out she was pregnant. Think about it - what was the likelihood of exactly that sperm fertilizing that egg? Minuscule, of course. Now, if aborted early in the pregnancy, the fetus presumably has no feelings, no consciousness. So if you had been aborted as a fetus, you would never have known it. So why is the idea that you could have been aborted more upsetting than the idea that that particular sperm very nearly failed to fertilize that egg? I can think of only two reasons: 1) you are projecting your current feelings on the fetus or 2) it upsets you to think that you weren't wanted. But I don't see how either of these things makes abortion the wrong choice.

[veganblue]

So why is the idea that you could have been aborted more upsetting than the idea that that particular sperm very nearly failed to fertilize that egg?

No one sheds a tear for the sperm that comes second, third... Apparently it does take more than one sperm to fertilise the egg; the crowding of the egg creates a change in the membrane potential that allows one sperm through then shuts it off again. One sperm and one egg does not make a baby - it requires a group effort. I am pretty certain that this is why IVF must inject the sperm cell into the egg.

[greenworlds]

[QUOTE=Hasha]I like that one, Sniv. You know, I was once in this sex ed workshop and the gynecologist said that when you get pregnant, the fetus isn't asking to be born.

At the same time the fetus is not asking not to be born, (as far as we know)... the potentially he or she ( refrains from calling the fetus an it..like a space alien or dead object) hasn't been given a chance to decide... what gives anyone the right to decide what kind of life they would choose either?

I agree with responsible sex education....namely couples having a loving and respectfull relationship with eachother in the long term sense, not with teenagers wearing next to nothing going out clubbing, with a one night stand relationship or other irresponsible sexual behaviour. Abortion cuts out ther beauty that should bring people together. If couples choose an abortion because they are short of a few bob, thats seems almost a laughable reason to me.

[Hasha]

what gives anyone the right to decide what kind of life they would choose either?

I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be funny, ironic, or serious.

[VeganMan]

So if you had been aborted as a fetus, you would never have known it.
Much of my children’s civil rights were lost when the Patriot Act became law. Does the fact that this happened before my children (who will be one this month) could possibly know what they lost in any way lessen their loss?


Think about it - what was the likelihood of exactly that sperm fertilizing that egg? Minuscule, of course.

Yes, as if you won a lottery in which the prize is to divide, multiply and develop into a baby. That would make your time spent in the womb much like your drive to the lottery office to collect your prize. That would make an abortion like your mother car jacking you and stealing your ticket!

No one sheds a tear for the sperm that comes second, third...
Nor for the sperms and eggs that never meet because of birth control. But if you say your sperm or your egg is not yet a life and therefore it’s okay to arbitrarily kill it I’ll agree with you. But once they meet and conception takes place I take a completely different view.


Let me clarify again, I’m dead set against outlawing abortion; I feel it should remain an individual choice. But I think many who choose it are making the wrong choice. Some examples:

1. My father.
2. People under the “one couple, one child” law who “wanted a boy”.
3. People who don’t want to let a pregnancy “ruin their figure”.
4. People whose careers would be “ruined by the birth of a child now” and would “rather wait”.
5. People whose child was conceived in a “bad relationship” and “don’t want to be reminded”.
6. People who wanted to avoid the social embarrassment of having a child “out of wedlock”.
7. People who see abortion as a “convenient alternative” to the “drudgery of raising a child”.

I in no way suggest that these examples represent all or even most people, they represent people making the wrong choice.

[Hasha]

Much of my children’s civil rights were lost when the Patriot Act became law. Does the fact that this happened before my children (who will be one this month) could possibly know what they lost in any way lessen their loss?

Yes, but your children have been born and will grow up to be conscious of it and will suffer because of it. An aborted fetus (presumably) does not suffer and nobody develops from that aborted fetus to suffer because of it.


Yes, as if you won a lottery in which the prize is to divide, multiply and develop into a baby. That would make your time spent in the womb much like your drive to the lottery office to collect your prize. That would make an abortion like your mother car jacking you and stealing your ticket!

Excepts that the aborted fetus doesn't know that it won the lottery. Look, there you are, driving your car, making plans about what you will do with your $$$, etc. and then somebody steals your ticket. But the fetus never knew that it had a ticket to begin with.


Let me clarify again, I’m dead set against outlawing abortion; I feel it should remain an individual choice. But I think many who choose it are making the wrong choice. Some examples:

1. My father.
2. People under the “one couple, one child” law who “wanted a boy”.
3. People who don’t want to let a pregnancy “ruin their figure”.
4. People whose careers would be “ruined by the birth of a child now” and would “rather wait”.
5. People whose child was conceived in a “bad relationship” and “don’t want to be reminded”.
6. People who wanted to avoid the social embarrassment of having a child “out of wedlock”.
7. People who see abortion as a “convenient alternative” to the “drudgery of raising a child”.

I in no way suggest that these examples represent all of even most people, they represent people making the wrong choice.

At least some of those don't look like wrong choices to me. Personally, I wouldn't let my career be ruined by having a child. (Not that I really expect to have a career given that oil production is about to peak and that if all we get is Great Depression II, we'll be extremely lucky, but that's beside the point.) As for the 'social embarrassment', that wouldn't stop me from having a child, but in some communities, this can be more than simple embarrassment, it can really jeopardize the person's future. And as for the 'convenient alternative to the drudgery of raising a child', well, if you see raising a child as a drudgery, then you sure as hell shouldn't be a parent. Nor do I think that your other examples are necessarily and always examples of bad choices (of course, I can't comment on your father).

[VeganMan]

At least some of those don't look like wrong choices to me....
I don't see us ever agreeing on this, but again I respect your right to believe as you see fit.

[Hasha]

I don't see us ever agreeing on this, but again I respect your right to believe as you see fit.

Fair enough. :)

[greenworlds]

I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be funny, ironic, or serious.

A little bit of all three....i think most people would agree .. ideally abortion shouldn't even have to be considered.

[Hasha]

ideally abortion shouldn't even have to be considered.

Ideally, as in, in the world in which people always use contraception except when they decide that they really want a child at that particular time, in a world in which contraception never fails, in a world in which there are no rapists, or if there are, they always wear condoms, in a world in which all pregnancies are healthy. Absolutely, if we lived in such a world, nobody should ever consider abortion.

[snivelingchild]

*applause* If only.

[xjohnx]

how do you vegans feel about abortion?

[eve]

As there's no vegan 'line' on the issue, I imagine there will be as many views as there are vegans! Personally, I feel it is up to those concerned to come to a decision.

[Poison Ivy]

I'm with Eve on this one, Abortion is a VERY personal issue and as such can only really be decided on by those who are faced with taking that option.

[Skajen]

i am personally against abortion, unless a woman is raped or giving birth could risk hers or the babies life.

[eve]

we are each entitled to our own view Skajen, as long as we don't press it on anyone else in a situation that we have never experienced. :)