Abortion

[Kumem]

I think people like to form opinions but nobody can ever know how it is for each individual let alone foresee every possible outcome and to prevent everyone from having abortions based on a model of 'best behaviour' rather than examining personal situations is equally offensive to the taking of a life, if that is how you choose to view abortion.



I think this is perfectly put. Everyone can have an opinion on something, but until you are in that situation, you really don't know how you will react to it. Like you say, each scenario is different. IMO sometimes more harm can be done by choosing to have a child if you are not capable of caring for them properly.

Liz

[aubergine]

Adam.

I'm not in any way trying to force my poinions on others. Like I said in my first post I hold an almost paradoxical viewpoint.

I think we should have the freedom to choose, I also happen to think one of the outcomes is selfish and not in keeping with a compassionate lifestyle i.e. Veganism.

We're all (mostly) adults, but our societies are increasingly unable to accept the consequences of our own actions.

[adam antichrist]

Sorry if thats how it sounded, that was not my intention. Like I said, it's fine for a personal opinion. What I mean is I would have a problem if you were a politician and it was your policy :o

[Gliondrach]

I think the whole abortion issue will evaporate as soon as we perfect time travel, then international terrorists and criminals like adolf hitler and george bush can be aborted before they cause any harm and only their family will suffer instead of 9/10 of the world :D

If it wasn't for Hitler most of us wouldn't be here now. We wouldn't have been born. That's something to think about.

[Kumem]

Eh? Please explain.
I have, many a time, heard the hypothetical question of 'if you could time travel, would you go back and kill Hitler?'

[Gliondrach]

If I could travel back in time I wouldn't kill Hitler. We don't know what the world would have been like if there hadn't been that war. Things might have turned out much worse.

The war affected the lives of my parents. If there hadn't been a war at that time their lives would have been different. They wouldn't have met. I wouldn't be here. I can hear some people cursing Hitler now, for that.

Even for those of you whose parents had already married, their lives would have been different without the war and they would have done different things at different times. They wouldn't have been doing what they were doing at the same time that they did what they did to cause your conception. Having sex at another time - even just an hour later - would have resulted in someone else being born in your place.

On another forum I wrote about how my grandfather had had the chance to kill Hitler but didn't take it. If he had, I wouldn't have been born. This is not the kind of forum to tell such a story, though. I've digressed too far from the aims of this forum.

[John]

Hitler gets whacked in my time-travel fantasy. I'm thankful for the people who did go out gunning for Nazis.

[eve]

I'll tell you an abortion story - a young single woman some time ago, asked me if I'd accompany her to the termination clinic. She had just missed her period but was nervous, so I went with her. Didn't take long, and then they brought her a cup of tea, and she sat up and turned to the nurse and asked what her baby looked like. The nurse said: "baby? this early in the piece it was no more than a bit of snot!" I was rather taken aback, but in a way, it prevented the girl from having any feelings about losing a baby :)

[Gliondrach]

Hitler gets whacked in my time-travel fantasy. I'm thankful for the people who did go out gunning for Nazis.

I'm also grateful to the people who fought the Nazis. Many of my relatives did and I would have been with them if I'd been alive at the time. We still have concentration camps and death camps but most of the inmates are non-humans. Old Adolf would have been in favour of abortion - for certain types of people.

[aubergine]

Sorry if thats how it sounded, that was not my intention. Like I said, it's fine for a personal opinion. What I mean is I would have a problem if you were a politician and it was your policy :o

That's cool...

I was mainly trying to clarify my own view. I am concious I give people the wrong idea alot of the time.

I am a highly moralistic person, but only when it coes to myself. I was simply explaining it from this angle. People have the freedom to do as they please, and so should they. Id doen't however have to mean I think they are doing the right thing.

[mememe]

I have always been pro-LIFE, long before I was vegan, I just felt that the moment of conception means there is a life there, and that is not ours to take. The baby has a right to life. I do find it hard to understand how any vegan can be pro-choice (I HATE that expression), when the life of a human is at stake. It makes no sense to me, when you are all so FOR the saving of animal lives, no matter how small. Yes, I understand mistakes happen, when you are being careful and taking precautions, but as someone else pointed out, if you can't live with the consequences, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but I do consider abortion tantamount to murder.

[Kiran]

This topic just reminded me to post a couple of interesting links. At the moment I am neutral on this issue as I am collecting facts. I stumbled upon this set of arguments when I was looking into the topic of abortion, and other related issues.

I belive that women have a choice of aborting or not. It is their right, although some places do not allow this. Whilst it is their right, I am completely against inflicting pain on an unborn baby. This brings us to an very important question - Does a Foetus fell pain?. I don't know, I am reading the arguments given in the following articles

http://www.blogicus.com/archives/babies_feel_pain_during_abortions.php
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm

[Kiran]

The fetus at 20 weeks gestation "is fully capable of experiencing pain. … Without question, all of this is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure." — Robert J. White, M.D.,PhD., professor of neurosurgery at Case Western University, Cleveland, Ohio, in testimony before the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. House of Representatives, March 21, 1996

[John]

I do find it hard to understand how any vegan can be pro-choice (I HATE that expression)[. . .]

Being pro-choice does not mean that I believe that every abortion is moral. For instance, female fetuses are aborted by some parents if they want a male instead. I think that is wrong. On the other hand, I believe that it is justifiable for a woman to choose an abortion if the pregnancy will kill her. Or if she is forced into pregnancy against her will. In between those extremes are many other scenarios which I do not have the right to judge, since I have not walked in those women's shoes.

I understand that many people believe that the rights of a fetus surpass the rights of a woman. That is their opinion. However, the majority of these anti-choice people would would earn more respect from me if they displayed the same level of outrage at the countless actual babies (in addition to fetuses) who are dying in this world.

[greenworlds]

So perhaps whether or not an abortion is moral is not the point, because it depends on how we view a fetus. Perhaps that is what we should specifically be discussing?

We have to be careful on how much our opinions relate to the bigger picture of life itself. I think we are wiser to look at life from a more objective stance rather than a subjective view: ie most people in this county and elsewhere view meat eating as acceptable..those that make it right?..I think not..from a moral, scientific, enviromental, ethical etc stance..the case against meat ends in harmfulness..and most people most likely would agree that anythink that is harmful (without getting into micro bacterias etc) on the whole is wrong.

What I'm trying to say is...it would seem we need to base our opinions on what is harmful/cruel etc and be as objective as possible.

[Geoff]

Aren't terms like 'harmful' or 'cruel' subjective?
If we're going to be objective we would refrain from putting resources into supporting the handicapped who, after all, are just a drain on society.
Someone advocated that philosophy 60 odd years ago but luckily he didn't get too far.

[mememe]

There is more life in a foetus in the womb, at whatever stage it is at, than a hen's egg.

Yes, terms like 'harmful' or 'cruel' CAN be subjective, but in the instance of abortion, I don't believe anyone can say that it is not harmful and cruel.

Society has become too flippant about it and abortions are available too easily. That said, I do appreicate there would then be a problem with back-street abortions, but at least that might make people think a bit more about what they are doing.

[adam antichrist]

Better still, we could ban abortion altogether, and bring back the pressure to feel shame over an unwanted pregnancy. Then the girls would just kill themselves. Everybody wins that way!

[bittersweet]

Pre 12 weeks (which is the level at which most UK medicos agree it is better not to do abortions past, although legally speaking they can be done later) over a quarter of pregnancies fail anyway.

This means that at least 25% of these pregnancies are non-viable anyway.

Abortions after 20 weeks - is this even allowed anywhere, except for lifesaving purposes? In the UK, the theory is that 2 doctors have to decide that the pregnancy would be harmful to the mother, or the family, before an abortion can be done - although in practice, if a woman comes for abortion early enough, trauma at having to carry a baby is sufficient damage for this clause.

[greenworlds]

Aren't terms like 'harmful' or 'cruel' subjective?
If we're going to be objective we would refrain from putting resources into supporting the handicapped who, after all, are just a drain on society.
Someone advocated that philosophy 60 odd years ago but luckily he didn't get too far.

I think we are talking about 2 different things. If it is left to humans to decide what is harmfull/cruel etc that is a very dangerous and a very arrogant view point ( as we have and had very little to do with creation/evolution etc. We should be humble to nature and try to live within it... doing as little harm as possible obeying it's laws and authority, that can only be achieved with an objective view point. .....a thing is not bad/harmfull/cruel just because someone says it is..it is bad etc because it is and someone has realised it.

[greenworlds]

It amazes me some people debate that a foetus is not a human being like a foetus is something totally seperate from a human being.....It is the earliest stage of human life!!!!!!

[mememe]

Better still, we could ban abortion altogether, and bring back the pressure to feel shame over an unwanted pregnancy. Then the girls would just kill themselves. Everybody wins that way! At least that is THEIR choice. Sorry, I know I come across as harsh and unsympathetic, but except in very extreme circumstances, such as the woman's life being at risk, abortion is immoral and wrong.

[Wishin986]

But that's the thing. A lot of women who don't want to go through with the pregnancy will do anything they can not to have it. This includes starving themselves and injuring themselves in different ways in order to have a miscarriage. Then in these situations the woman's life is being put at risk. As of now in our society having abortion banned doesn't work. Women will do whatever they can to get around the laws. If people are going to go through such lengthy and dangerous measures to not have the child, we might as well have a safer way to prevent even more harm being done.

Furthermore, as we have seen in this thread, abortion is a very personal issues and a lot of people have very strong personal feelings on the issue. I respect everyone's point of view equally and for this reason across the board on most issues I am always pro-choice and believe that it is the individuals choice. Me telling you what to do and what not to do isn't going to change your belief in something and if you do believe strongly enough its not going to change your actions either. Therefore if someone personally doesn't want an abortion and think its morally wrong, then don't have one and I'll support you completely on that decision. However, if there's someone else who wants one then I'll also support them. It's their life and they are the only ones who know what would be best for them and the unborn possible child. They are also the only ones who will have to deal with the consequences and emotions that come with a procedure such as an abortion so let them deal with it.

[mememe]

I know all this. It's just that it makes me very sad.

[Kumem]

Do any people who support banning abortion consider the consequences of having an unwanted child? I know that 'pro-lifers' purport to be thinking about the rights of the baby/foetus, but what about the children who are born and stay with unloving families and live a miserable life? Or the children who grow up miserably in care?
If I had the choice of not existing or living a completely miserable life, then I would probably rather not exist. (IMO I would come back another time anyway :) )
It's not ALWAYS in the best interest of a child to born unwanted.
Each case is different and your opinions may change if you were affected by it personally.