Abortion

[sugarmouse]

i agree..enough unwanted children in tnis world

[twinkle]

Has anyone mentioned the book "The Cider House Rules" yet? That's a very interesting and in-depth look at a lot of the issues surrounding abortion, albeit told through fiction. I'd recommend it.

[catmogg]

There's also Vera Drake, directed by Mike Leigh... another excellent film.

[twinkle]

Heh, actually I meant the book :) I haven't seen the film

[catmogg]

oopsy, not paying attention to what i read... Smacks wrist. The film is very good too...

[John]

Has anyone mentioned the book "The Cider House Rules" yet? That's a very interesting and in-depth look at a lot of the issues surrounding abortion, albeit told through fiction. I'd recommend it.

Great book. Dr Larch might be my favorite John Irving character. He reminds us that while some people take the easy route and self-righteously criticize and condemn, others look at the grim reality of this world and do the dirty work that needs to be done.

[thecatspajamas1]

I think the government should give everybody free birth control, condoms, sex education, and counseling. If society took better care of people emotionally and physically, then no mother or baby would ever have to experience an abortion, which is a very traumatic event.

Things need to be fixed on a much deeper level, at the root of the problem.

I think abortion is a necessary evil for the time being, because humans are flawed. I think it is sad and gross though, and when I see the pictures of aborted babies it makes me depressed.

So many problems are hidden underneath the abortion issue- men being irresponsible when they impregnate people, sexual assualts, oversexualization of the media, not enough access to birth control....

As a vegan, I would never get an abortion myself, because people are animals too. However, I am pro-choice, because I would rather know that a fetus suffers just an hour of pain than be brought up by irresponsible unloving parent(s).

I am studying to become a midwife, because I think babies are wonderful and gestation is fascinating. Not everybody feels that way though. I think that is sad, but that is their opinion.

[greenworlds]

{QUOTE]So many problems are hidden underneath the abortion issue- men being irresponsible when they impregnate people, sexual assualts, oversexualization of the media, not enough access to birth control....[/QUOTE]

I agree with you there is a problem with over-sexation, but I don't think it is totally a male thing, Surely women know how babies are born and they also should treat sexual intercourse as a very serious thing.

[veganfever]

I agree with you on every point, thecatspijamas1.

[greenworlds]

I agree with you on every point, thecatspijamas1.

I agree with thecatspijamas1 on most of her pionts But I can't agree that males are solely responsible for pregnancies ( that implies females are really have no say about getting pregnant..that is certainly not true.

[veganfever]

Of course, males are not the only responsible, but we are not talking about the responsibility, we are talking about who is, historicaly, bearing or who is stuck with all the consequences of having sex.
I am not going to shed a tear of compasion over us, poor men.

[greenworlds]

You did say in your earlier post that you agreed with 'thecatspijamas1' in all her points.. she made a point that the hidden causes of abortion are caused by the irresponiblily of men..sexaul assaults etc. of course there is an element of that, but to shift the blame soley onto men is very incorrect.
Don't you think ' women should be even more responsible as they have a bigger burden to bear when pregnant?. It is no good a women having an abortion and just blaming the man if she doesn't want to look after a baby...she could foster the child.
Besides birth-control is still a form of abortion and can be dangerous.and
I'm sure there isn't a danger of men raping woman..because she says no.

Both sexes need to be more responible!

[thecatspajamas1]

Anyone ever hear about the whole abortion/eugenics bit? I read that a lot of the early abortion advocators were advocators of eugenics. (I think Margaret Sangler) If you think about it, most abortion clinics are in inner city and minority areas. Hmm, you'd think that Bush would be pro-abortion then, because he doesn't like minorities.What do you think?

[Lilac Hamster]

The thing that upsets me about the way pro-lifers are protrayed in the media is that they are always shown as right-wing fundamentalist religious people. This is so definitely not the case, it is as diverse a movement as the vegan/AR movement, but the media is very pro-choice and deliberately shows pro-lifers in the most unflattering light possible (just as they are run by meat-eaters and show AR people as loonies all too often).

This group is brilliant and they give talks on the feminist case against abortion
and do a lot of work especially to reduce student abortions,

http://www.feministsforlife.org/

I also signed up to this as a non-religious pro-lifer,

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

Bush is not an ethical person he just opposes abortion because of his religion, I don't think he thinks much out for himself!

Lesley

[Pob]

I don't like abortion. I would very strongly oppose any woman who wanted to abort a child of mine (have felt that way since mid teens). I don't agree with the idea that kids that will be born into a deprived life should be aborted to save them pain and struggle - where there is life there is hope.

Making abortion illegal brings major problems, though, especially where there are people that have a faith opposing contraception. So I am against abortion, but am not in favour of it being illegal.

There is something of a grey area, however. An IUD (coil), works by terminating any eggs that get fertilised. A morning after pill does the same. These are obviously only a maximum of a few days old, but they are still foetuses.

Are either of these methods of "avoiding" pregnancy acceptable to people against abortion? If so, then where is the line? A week? A month?

Should contraception be restricted to methods that prevent the egg being fertilised?

[thecatspajamas1]

http://www.feministsforlife.org/

I also signed up to this as a non-religious pro-lifer,

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html



Thanks for the links, Lilac! Whenever I'm reading abortion sites online, the pro-life sites always have scripture quotes and stuff and it's been turning me away. I feel like anything that right-winger christian conservatives identify with is not something that i can probably identify with- so its nice to see that there is a logical feminist perspective as well.

[John]

I don't like abortion. I would very strongly oppose any woman who wanted to abort a child of mine (have felt that way since mid teens).

There is a very simple solution: Don't have sex with a woman unless you both intend on having a child as a result. But even then, if the woman changes her mind and chooses an abortion, it is her right.

If you are opposed to abortion, either don't have sex or don't have an abortion (I'm speaking to the world at large). And perhaps you can also adopt children, help single mothers, make contraceptives available everywhere, educate young adults about sex, work for the equality of women and end poverty around the world if you really want to reduce and end abortion.

[Pob]

There is a very simple solution: Don't have sex with a woman unless you both intend on having a child as a result.
I would rephrase that to: Don't have sex unless you are both prepared to have a child as a result.

But even then, if the woman changes her mind and chooses an abortion, it is her right.
That's where I would oppose her. The father and the unborn child have rights, too.

I do talk about these things beforehand and have never had sex outside a relationship, which maybe should give me more say in the matter. Perhaps there should be a pre-intercourse agreement drawn up. ;)

[Lilac Hamster]

Rob you are obviously very sensible, it's quite right to discuss these issues in advance of the situation, a shame many people do not think beforehand! It always shocks me how careless some people are in this aspect of their lives, it even surprised me when I was young how some people behaved and took so many risks, so it's not just because I am an old fogey in my 40s that I feel the way I do, lol. I wasn't even especially religious (I was raised CofE), just well.. the sensible-ish type.

John as to one of your points about helping single mums, yes I'm also very concerned about the lack of crisis pregnancy help there is available in the UK, or rather more the state it is in in terms of welcoming and accepting new volunteers. I did not feel capable enough to train as a counsellor but I did offer myself as a befriender to a couple of the nearest crisis pregnancy support groups. One was a Life group, the other was very Christian and affiliated to Care, these are the main groups specializing in this type of work in the UK. The Care group only accepts Christians as befrienders thus they turn away a lot of possible helpers just for not sharing their religious beliefs, which I feel is not the most constructive way to operate but there is nothing I can do about it, and the Life group are non-denominational and quite OK with atheists/agnostics but they are not set up to run a befriender service. When I contacted their head office to ask why this was not being introduced to work alongside their counselling work, they said it would mean a lot of updating of training manuals, among other things, so in other words red tape was preventing them from introducing a wonderful much needed befriender service for women in crisis pregnancy, which would save many more women and babies from abortion! A very frustrating situation indeed.

I then went on to contact a volunteer social care group even closer to my home than my closest Life and Care groups, but although they are a very general group, and do a lot of befriending, they don't do anything for helping women in crisis pregnancy! I even offered to get this aspect of befriending support started up because I believe it is important to have this type of help available in the local community and they never even got back to me. Maybe I will have to pester them again, sometimes being determined actually helps. I've not followed up because at the time I was also quite busy preparing for a little local free vegan food fair I was organising. I can't get involved in all the causes and issues I would like to but apart from ethical veganism, this is the other high priority issue I am interested in getting involved in!

I'm a pretty determined person and I have looked at many different organisations, because I would very much like to get involved helping and supporting a few local women in crisis pregnancy but I can tell anyone it is very hard to get started in this area of volunteering unless you are perhaps involved in certain institutions such as the Catholic Church then it might be easier.

I wish we had the Feminists for Life in the UK as well as the US, they seem one of the best and most wholistic of the pro-life groups.

I have to add that the Cider House Rules (the film, I've not read the book) seemed to me to be little more than very thinly disguised pro-abortion propaganda ( I say pro-abortion not to offend but simply because in at least one case the woman was certainly not presented with any choice other than having the abortion so did not seem very pro-choice and certainly not pro-woman). I suspect Vera Drake is similar but will eventually get round to seeing it and will keep an open mind.

Lesley

[toma_Paella!!!]

Those who call themselves pro-choice and claim that abortion is right because it respects the right of the "potencial mother" to choose whether to have that baby or kill it, tend to add as well that it is better to end that unborn life rather than let him/her go through a life or suffering... (going from one orphan shelter to another and stuff)
If you claim that the right to decide should be essential, let that person decide for himself/herself if life is worth to live or not, instead of deciding for him/her and ending that life "for their welfare".

And in any case... Generally, or at least that's what it happens in my country, babies adopted by families unable to have children will have a wonderful life sorrounded by a loving family...
The number of children rejected by their new families is rather small in comparison with those who recieve a happy family.
And even in that case... one of my best friends have gone through that exact same situation... go telling him he should have been aborted, go telling him that his life is worthless.
If one considers abortion in the 7th month as murder, or is against abortion as a way of birth control, can't support abortion is other circumstances (unless it's something extremely tough, such as the mother's life be seriously at risk), for the final result will be exactly the same for the murdered person. It's pretty much the same as animal exploitation, supported by those who consider bullfighting or fur as something very wrong, but are ok with animal killing for food "because it's for a good reason".

Here's a very good webpage related to this topic:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/


;) Paz y luz

[eve]

If you are a woman in your next life, you could find yourself in certain circumstances that would change your mind. Until then young man, what about reading Lilac Hamster's posting?

[toma_Paella!!!]

Yes, I've read Lilac's post. It's pretty good, and I understand that there are very tough situations indeed, but that can't change my point of view about abortion being murder.

I have lived lots of situations very close to the abortion issue, such as many girl friends or my aunt herself having abortions right away without even giving a damn about what they were doing...
I'm aware that for some people pregnancy comes in a very bad moment, but the truth of the matter is that (at least in my country, and I pressume that it should be pretty much the same in the rest of Europe) less than 1% of the abortions are performed after a case of rape, and only 3% are performed because of the mother's health being at risk. The other 96% are due to people's irresponsibily, and could have been prevented if the "parents" (lol) would have been a bit more caring. I'm obvioulsy no one to blame people who have gotten an abortion (or two, or three...), but it's certainly easier to face an unwanted pregnancy when you know that just for a few euros someone will vacuum that "mistake" out for you, isn't it?


About being a woman in my next life... well, I happen to be an atheist and therefore I do not believe in that stuff, but thanks.;)
Likewise, hopefully in your next life you won't be an unwanted baby ready to be sucked out in behalf of "the right to choose". Maybe to think that you could have been aborted can change your mind at least a little bit...

Oh, and by the way, I guess that young man was meant to be offensive. I don't think your opinion is more worth than mine just because you were born a couple of decades before me...

[sugarmouse]

Some good points here..i know i have been abit of a lurker on this thread (i may have replied earlier but i dont remember il lchek over in a minute.)-i m a bit sat on the fence on the subject..beleive it or not it isnt something i feel too strongly about.im passionate about animal rights, human ones mean very little to me.weve made our bed and we are now at the top of the food chain,king of the swingers,whatever you want to call it..i thik we are an evil race and i wont ever sympathise with us as a whole, involving any of the controversial issues and differences we argue and fight about whether its religion,abortion,capitalism etc..ill jus get on with my little bit.
iv studied feminism from all perspectives, i understand the stance that life is precious and that an unborn child has no say etc etc-sometimes i even nearly feel guilty that i feel this way-abortion does not bother me.

i understand both points of view..but i have to agree with thecatspjamas in her way of noting that in this day and age abortion is a necessary evil..of course i do not think it is right..but its here and i would say in many instances it is useful.theres too many of us, and ppl will be careless..we re renowned for it, were dumb..i think many ppl dont deserve to be on this planet and they should maybe be the ones who are terminated to make room for an unborn-but this is hardly going to b the case-due to financial and political bumph we cant even kill the most notorious dangerous criminal, or end the life of the suffering who begs us to in some cases...so yes it is a little ironic that it is legal to kill an unborn.but it does not worry me..its just a typical action from us.

[Nadine]

I agree with sugarmouse. I don't feel too strongly on this issue but then I've never been in the situation of having to decide. I've never felt remotely maternal either.

If a man feels strongly about having a say regarding abortion then it should be discussed before sex with his partner.

[catmogg]

There is a very simple solution: Don't have sex with a woman unless you both intend on having a child as a result. But even then, if the woman changes her mind and chooses an abortion, it is her right.

If you are opposed to abortion, either don't have sex or don't have an abortion (I'm speaking to the world at large). And perhaps you can also adopt children, help single mothers, make contraceptives available everywhere, educate young adults about sex, work for the equality of women and end poverty around the world if you really want to reduce and end abortion.

Here here. ;)