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veganblue
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:56 AM
I always get the 'well what have we got these for' (pointing at teeth). I don't get that. Do we have teeth that look like they are supposed to be used for ripping up meat? can somebody tell me. Would like to have an answer to meat eaters when they use this excuse.

I usually ask gently, how they would approach a cow or sheep or any animal in the field and try to use those teeth to bring the animal down in the same way a tiger does...

Maybe your sabertoothed friend has not been out in the wild harvesting animals recently? They may find that a cow will flick off any attempts to open its hide with such implements, at the risk of life and limb of the assailant. :)

Seaside
Apr 22nd, 2005, 08:30 AM
Posted by veganblue:

I usually ask gently, how they would approach a cow or sheep or any animal in the field and try to use those teeth to bring the animal down in the same way a tiger does...

That's one of my favorite examples! :)

When I was taking field geology, we went on lots of field trips through the California hills. We climbed over lots of barbed-wire fences, and encountered lots of cattle. EVERYONE, (except me, too sappy to be scared of any animal!) was frightened of the beasts, and way more ready to run to the nearest fence than to test their teeth and fingernails against those hooves and horns!
They may look placid when you are driving by, but they can get pretty darn frisky when you approach on foot! :D

Heather
Apr 22nd, 2005, 04:57 PM
I've thought about this a lot since I became vegan (about six months ago). It seems to me that it's obvious that an intellingent and compassionate person would be a vegan, but it just isn't so black and white.

I was a veggie for about 25 years before becoming vegan but gave little thought to the suffering and slaughter of cows/hens to produce dairy/eggs. I bought free range and organic and my conscience was clear. Then I heard about how newly hatched chicks from laying hens are horrifically killed and immediately became a vegan. I still can't understand how I went all those years without thinking about something so obvious.

My family are all compassionate and intelligent people, most are veggies but some are total meat-eaters, but won't listen to my arguments. They prefer to bury their heads in the sand to breaking their habits.

I really despair sometimes about this dilemma.

englishvegoboi
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:42 PM
If we look at humanity as a whole, it is a very depressing outlook. We are much like a virus of epidemic proportions. However, what keeps me going is the minority of people who are both compassionate and always striving to make the world a better place for all of human and non-human nature.

My brother is currently in Asia and he is paranoid about catching avian flu but he is also looking forward to tucking into some Peking duck. He doesn't under stand that he is contributing to the problem and if so, he doesn't care.

Oh well...next time I am in Sydney I'll take him to my favourite vegan restaurant (Peace Harmony on 29 King Street) and he can try the best mock chicken satay in the entire world!!!

DoveInGreyClothing
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:52 PM
I'd say it was mainly conditioning and apathy. Most people I know eat meat but they are otherwise nice, compassionate and intelligent people. I kinda feel as if the whole world has gone mad and we're the only sane ones!

DoveInGreyClothing
Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:58 PM
I was a veggie for about 25 years before becoming vegan but gave little thought to the suffering and slaughter of cows/hens to produce dairy/eggs. I bought free range and organic and my conscience was clear. Then I heard about how newly hatched chicks from laying hens are horrifically killed and immediately became a vegan. I still can't understand how I went all those years without thinking about something so obvious. By the way, I chose to stop eating meat as a young child as soon as I realised that it was corpse, .
Ditto. I've been veggie since I was 12 and old enough to research the subject and realise I could live healthily without meat, but only went all the way as a new year's resolution at the end of last year. Jo Stepaniak's "Vegan Sourcebook" made my mind up after I hired it from the library.

Zool
Apr 23rd, 2005, 02:40 AM
Why not be vegan?

Meat tastes great! I don't crave it at all now because of how immoral & filthy it is and horrible for your health. The thought of the taste disgusts me now. But back in the day I can remember craving a burger pretty bad. Especially when I was vegan just for health reasons. Once trying to be healthy led to an awakening to all the cruelty that goes on, all the cravings went away.

It's also convenient. There's fast food places on every corner. Meat everywhere! To be vegan means having to go out of your way to find suitable food. People by nature are pretty lazy. I know I tend to be. I bet if there was a vegan restaurant right next to every McDonalds in the world, our numbers would mutiply by several hundred times immediately just because being vegan would be easier. Look at how much the whole "healthy angle" has benefitted Subway's sales the last few years. If only we could get the "lose weight effortlessly" word spread as quickly as the Atkins people did. I see the low carb crap everywhere I look.

jhodgski
Apr 24th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Conditioning. Since birth for some reason, I don't know how this conditioning evolved over the years. From day one it is taught it is fine and good and normal to kill and eat other animals, and their reproductive secretions. For us to go against this such an ingrained in our heads since baby-dom belief makes vegans not "normal", I can't believe it, I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone when people are so baffled on why I don't eat animals or their secretions..

There are obviously a number of factors, but this is the main one I was thinking of - although on a larger scale.

My thought is that it seems to be general human nature to follow suit, so if it's normal in a certain nation or culture to consume animals, milk and eggs, etc. then that's what most of those people will do without too much thought (especially when the cultural practices are enforced by certain religions).

But hopefully veganism can still keep steadily growing, so it becomes a more apparent choice for people, with more of the world's caring people choosing to go that way.

I don't know how many of the world's population are vegan by choice, but if we were all born into a primarily vegan world, I'm pretty sure the corresponding number of meat-eaters would be much less.

So hopefully, the way veganism proceeds will be like a snowball effect. And, with all the logic and compassion on it's side, maybe that will be what happens.

Cheers,
James

kokopelli
Apr 25th, 2005, 10:36 AM
I agree jhodgski.
I believe veganism will grow exponentially.

My kids are life vegans, and sometimes I worry that if they fall in love with meat-eaters, I may end up with carnivorous grandchildren, which would be very upsetting.

But so far, they seem to be doing a pretty good job of educating their friends and encouraging them to give up meat. It helps when sceptical people can see that you can live your whole life without animal products and be perfectly healthy.

And even my brother's Daily Mirror has been encouraging readers to switch from eating traditional full English breakfasts, burgers, etc, to a reduced meat diet, rich in fresh fruit and veg, for the sake of their health. ;)

foxytina_69
Apr 25th, 2005, 11:15 AM
how old are your children kokopelli? :)

kokopelli
Apr 25th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Hi Foxytina :)

My sons are 19 and 17 and my daughter's 12.

effulgent
Apr 25th, 2005, 08:29 PM
Why was I not vegan for a long time before I became vegan? Because Ben & Jerry's is SOOOOO GOOOD! I have yet to taste any Soy/Rice "ice cream" that comes even a little bit close to how good Ben & Jerry's tastes. I've tried Soy Delicious (a bunch of different flavors), Soy Dream, Rice Dream and Tofutti so far. My husband was eating Brownie Batter ice cream yesterday next to me on the couch, and it took all of my willpower to not just steal it and take a great big bite.

So I made me a blueberry/banana smoothie with soy milk and apple juice and a little bit of agave syrup to sweeten it up a bit. And it was good. But I still miss ice cream.

I don't have a problem going out of my way to eat the stuff that's "Ok" for me to eat as a vegan, but I do miss a few non-vegan things, ice cream being the biggest one. I really like Almond Milk, so I'm going to try to make some vegan almond ice cream at home at some point this summer. I have a nifty ice cream maker that I haven't used in a while.

Shisha Fiend
Apr 25th, 2005, 09:22 PM
I was not vegan for thirteen years because I didn't know the cows and chickens suffered in the dairy and egg industries. You know, I ate free reange eggs and I thought it was okay. Plus I didn't know vegan existed. It just didn't occur to me that that was a possibility.

Anyway then I bought this book about all different sorts of animal cruelty and found otu the whole deal with eggs, milk, wool, and everything else. And I told my mum I wanted to go vegan and she said it was unhealthy and that I had to wait till I was 16 at which point I could do what I liked as she was no longer responsible. So I persuaded her that I could at least give up eggs, and I gave up eggs, wool, and all other sorts of animal products- till I turned 16 and then I gave up dairy too, and became a vegan.

So the initial reason was ignorance, and then parental pressure not to.

Robin
Apr 25th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Well, I'm not as of yet and that's pretty much a combination of doubtful parents and my own general laziness. Since I'm in the middle of it I often get the feeling that it's difficult to get started at it in a way that isn't remedied by theoretical knowledge.

I'm sure you know the feeling, where do I start? Where do I find soymilk? how do you make tasty meals with tempeh and tofu? etc etc. The only way to get into it seems like, well, get into it! ;)

And I think that's what daunts a lot of people, plus peer pressure, foodculture, culture in general, fear of being the weirdo, fear of being ridiculed (sissy! treehugger!!!) and a bunch of other stuff.

katie
Apr 26th, 2005, 02:51 AM
one word: cheese. i still miss it too! :)

sylkan
Apr 26th, 2005, 08:06 PM
Ignorance

Because they care more about their own whimsical pleasure or conforming to others' expectations, than about innocents' suffering and lives.

They can't be bothered

They're addicted to the chemicals in the flesh or bodily fluids of animals

They're semi- or fully sociopathic

They don;t respect themselves, the world or animals' lives

They're unwilling to remove themselves from being part of the generic flock by being WEIRD (ie vegan)

There are bound to be others, but those seem to be the most obvious ones

:) What are your thoughts ?

I would say these all seem the same types of reasons I encounter. It seems to me that it is pretty selfish to say I know this hurts someone but I'm gonna do it anyway because I like it.

kokopelli
Apr 26th, 2005, 09:51 PM
one word: cheese. i still miss it too! :)

have a look at the picture of cheese mites I posted on this thread, katie, you won't miss cheese after seeing them!

http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3616

Robin
Apr 27th, 2005, 05:15 PM
ugh....I just had cheese on my veggieburger...I'll never respond to baits like that just after eating again O_o


...or maybe I should o_

katie
Apr 28th, 2005, 09:02 AM
thanks kokopelli, that helps! soycheese is looking a whole lot more appetising :)

Evilfluffbunny
Apr 28th, 2005, 02:24 PM
I was veggie from the age of 8, but before I knew about veal and the shocking treatment of chickens I thought that vegans were a bit extreme to be honest. I wasn't negative about them, I just couldn't see the point in it. I started eating free range eggs and not using milk (although I'd eat products with milk in), but I was riddled with guilt, especially after I learned that even free range chickens are usually de-beaked. :(

I wanted to go vegan but I thought I couldn't because I wasn't keen on vegetables and I thought that was pretty much all I could eat (I know, I know - stupid of me)! Finally, when I was 20 I decided I'd try it for a week and see how it went and thankfully I never looked back! It's been over 5 years now :)

I felt better on every level and wished I'd done it sooner. My Mum went vegan about a year after I did.

PolluxStar
Apr 29th, 2005, 05:54 AM
I wish I had been Vegan I'm 19

I don't miss anything , besides some selected italian foods.. and probably something else..

Robin
Apr 29th, 2005, 08:32 PM
All you people who's been veggie since like you reached a hobbit to his kneecaps just amaze me. I certainly didn't have that sort of inutive awareness by then.

Kinda sounds a bit like homosexuals, you know like some has known as far back as they remembered, kinda interesting.

kokopelli
Apr 29th, 2005, 08:39 PM
I felt better on every level and wished I'd done it sooner. My Mum went vegan about a year after I did.

That's brilliant, Evilfluffbunny! :D

I wish my mum would go vegan, but I don't think she ever will, unless she comes to live with us.

Evilfluffbunny
Apr 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM
That's the funny thing, my Mum had already been vegetarian since she was 17, but she didn't want to force it on me when I was born. I remember having chicken one day and asking her what it was and how it got there and everything and she did tell me it was a bird, but she also said it died of old age so it's ok to eat it! :rolleyes: I had to learn the truth for myself after joining a junior RSPCA club and getting books from the school library.

My Mum turned veggie simply because she loves animals, but she didn't know anything really about farming methods and slaughterhouses etc. She grudgingly turned vegan after I told her about veal and the chicken industry. My Dad eats meat but keeps saying he'll turn veggie, he's been saying that for several years though so I don't think it'll ever happen!

Mozbee
Apr 29th, 2005, 10:06 PM
All you people who's been veggie since like you reached a hobbit to his kneecaps just amaze me. I certainly didn't have that sort of inutive awareness by then.

Kinda sounds a bit like homosexuals, you know like some has known as far back as they remembered, kinda interesting.
I suppose it was pretty instinctive. To me once I knew where meat came from or rather what it really is - eating it seemed as cruel as eating a rabbit, guinea-pig, squirrel, parrot, piglet, hedgehog, frog, elephant, the list goes on & on &...