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drummer
Apr 22nd, 2005, 03:46 AM
Yes, I've decided not to be a vegan anymore. Before anyone passes judgement on me, please read all I have to say before you go calling me a cruel inhumane meat-eater. I am not trying to justify what I am doing, but perhaps once you read this you may understand what has driven me to this.

At the moment, I am living in a small town (less than 700 people) in the middle of nowhere. The nearest large town is Adelaide, which is 300km away. The nearest major city is Melbourne, which is 600km away. For the past 11 months I have been living here, but not by choice - my partner owns a house here and we are simply trying to sell it so we never have to live here again, we are city people.
In order for me to get vegan food, I must travel at least 240km to another town and the price of petrol here has risen to $1.20 per litre, making it almost impossible to get vegan foods regularly. On top of this, my car is 41 years old and cannot handle too much strain.
Sadly, Australia is nothing like Britain and the USA - where there are vegans in abundance and a wide variety of vegan food is readily available. Even in Adelaide I cannot get most of the vegan foods I could get if I lived in Melbourne.
So for the past 11 months, this has been my diet -

non-organic fruit and vegetables, apart from my home grown strawberries and cherry tomatoes.
Brown rice, wholemeal pasta, bread, cereals, etc.
Tinned beans (dried ones are usually unavailable)
Once every three months, I had the opportunity to go to Adelaide and buy tofu and tempeh, but those stocks all too soon ran out. Most of the time I have to go without these and I'm stuck eating tinned beans.
Soy milk, soy yogurt, soy cheese. Even the soy cheese and soy yogurt are not always available, sometimes I have to go a month without.
Nuts, when available.
Vegan products are not available - fake meats, etc. I can't even get TVP mince, chunks or slices. There are no restaurants that serve vegan food - there's no restaraunts at all, just desert.
To me, this diet lacks variety. Now that I'm 9 weeks pregnant, this food simply is not enough nourishment and variety for me. I'm suprised I lasted as long as I did on this diet. It saddnes me that it has to be like this, that the world surrounding me is against me. I feel a bit depressed about it all. I've gone through so much frustration just to eat and now I'm so bored and fed up with this diet I just can't keep doing it right now. Perhaps after I move to Melbourne (Which will probably be in December) I can go vegan again because there is so much variety in vegan foods compared to where I am now.
I will not be consuming cows' milk products, eggs, cows, pigs, sheep, goats, etc. I will only be eating some free-range organic chicken once a week, plus a small amount of fish - not very much while I'm pregnant due to the mercury content. On a vegan diet I feel malnourished and I've been craving chicken since I got pregnant, and I've been craving tuna as well. I will not deny my baby the nourishment he/she needs.
I was vegan for 6 years, I still believe in veganism, and will almost be vegan still anyway.
Some of you may argue that although eating free-range organic chicken is not as cruel and does not contain antibiotics, etc, it still isn't healthy because of 'all that saturated fat and cholesterol'. Well, I'm not going to be eating it twice a day every day like most people, once a week will be enough and the rest of my meals will be vegan. I'll still consume the soy products(which will cancel out the saturated fat and cholesterol) and beans.

I guess I am not welcome here anymore, so as soon as you have all voiced your opinions I will leave this forum and not return until I'm a vegan again.
I am sad about all this, it's just sad that I can't get the foods I need to feel energetic and satisfied so I've been driven to eat chickens and fish.
I wish all of you well and say hoorah to veganism, because if it wasn't for vegans, the world would be missing some very intelligent, compassionate, caring and kind people.

All my love,

Vegan Drummer

snivelingchild
Apr 22nd, 2005, 05:00 AM
I feel so sorry you feel like you need to do this, so I say this only because I know you would be saddened to eat animal products.

From what you described, I can't imagine how you would not be eating nutritionally. You should be able to get everything you need with the fruits, veggies and grains. Perhaps before you give up, we can talk in detail about your diet, and the people here can help to make sure you can get a healthy vegan diet with your limited resources.

You really do not need all the soy products to be healthy. If you think your diet lacks variety, can you start buying more types of fruits and veggies, or do you buy as much variety as is sold where you live? I understand your building concerns about your pregnancy, but I din't think adding meat is the answer. Please stay and talk in detail about your needs, and I'm sure people here would be willing to help. I'm assuming you don't have a vegan-friendly nutritionalist in your area, but you can get the answers to what you need. A diet consisting of just fruits, veggies, and grains can be very nutritionally sound for a pregnant woman, you just need to watch what you do.

Is there anything that you are specifically concerned about? I hope we can find an alternative answer.

veganblue
Apr 22nd, 2005, 05:08 AM
Dear Vegan Drummer,

I find it distressing that circumstances have brought you to this place and can imagine that there must be a great deal of anguish for you in making this decision, along with the great concern for the welfare of you new child.

I come originally from Mildura and know that some of the more 'exotic' vegan foods are in short supply or very expensive - such things as tempeh and tofu.

I know you have already made the decision but I would recommend going to a supportive nutritionist who could guide you in what food choices are very important for you to be getting in bulk and design a good healthy diet for both you and the baby.

Living in Adelaide, I can help you find some fantastic shops that stock a huge range of inexpensive foods that I find essential for a good diet and last for ages. I cook the majority of my own food from scratch and it you are in Adelaide every three months, can assist you in getting some great tofu and tempeh varieties that are less than half the price you get in a supermarket. Both can be frozen but the tofu comes packed with a three month life just in the fridge.

There is a wholesale warehouse here that stocks the hugest range of pasta, beans, nuts, spices, herbs, oils, flours, TVP, grains and glorious tahini that will last easily three months and are much cheaper than other retail outlets. There is also a place in the area that specialises in faux meats that are vegan, if you get the craving for such things with bub on board.

I completely understand your country predicament, but I know that it is possible to eat well and inexpensively in the country as a vegan; but it will take a little organisation.

I can't imagine how it would be to eat meats again, but if you would appreciate any assistance that I can offer for when you are in town, PM me about it.

Best wishes.

veganblue
Apr 22nd, 2005, 05:15 AM
I forgot to add, I know a sympathetic nutritionist here in Adelaide. While not cheap, she is very helpful and would be able to address your concerns.

snivelingchild
Apr 22nd, 2005, 05:19 AM
Remember, you can eat beans and veggies for protein instead of soy, and greens for calcium instead of soy milk or tofu. A cup of brocolli contains as much calcium as a glass of soy milk. These same dark green, leafy veggies contain lots of folic acid. You do not need to rely on special vegan "replacements" to be healthy. Please, give this another chance, and I'm sure everyone here will help you with ANYTHING you need.

I don't want to insult you with this if these are things you've already looked into, but just in case, here a couple of links to get started links:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/veganpregnancy.htm
http://www.vegfamily.com/vegan-pregnancy/getting-your-vitamins.htm

I know this information is basic, but it's a starting point and I'd like to pinpoint exactly where you feel you may be lacking, so maybe a solution can be figured out.

Perhaps you could describe exactly what kinds of foods are available to you.

Seaside
Apr 22nd, 2005, 06:45 AM
I hope no one here will judge you or treat you cruelly for your feelings, vegan drummer. Remember that pregnancy can cause profound emotional and psychological changes, not just physical ones. You are going through a lot right now, and it doesn't look like you have lots of supportive people around you who can sympathize with your views. There are plenty of people here, however, who would like to help you if you will let them! :o

eve
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:56 AM
Many of us live a long way from capital cities such as Adelaide and Melbourne. My nearest city is Brisbane, a 4-hour drive for me, but I only go there if there's a medical appointment.

As snivelingchild says, there is plenty of good nutrition in fruit, veges, and beans, nuts etc without bothering with special vegan foods. That's how I manage anyway, though I do buy soymilk, but don't drink too much of it. As sniv points out, plenty of leafy green veges are necessary for you. But forget about the chicken and fish - those foods will do you no good at all.

celtic rose
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:06 AM
Sometimes circumstances are against you.
I truly hope you don't start eating flesh again but please come back to veganism as quickly as posible.
Good luck with the baby.

snaffler
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:16 AM
Vegan Drummer many people are vegan with in practical boundaries. That is just unparactical to drive such a long way to buy food.

It would be very wrong for anyone to pass opinion on you I do not think for a second anyone would either and if they do they are trying to be elitist and I think this forum is a community for all to support each other.

Look at things in a positive light you have goal and you will get to your final destination again and be happy as cow jumping over the moon :D .

In the mean time do as you need to do and be happy do get down, unless its to some funky tunes errmm sorry daft humour.

I must admit reading some stories and articals of the struggle people have getting vegan food and products even in the UK I must count my lucky beans (re-phrased for vegan purposes).

Around the South West and over on the coast of Brighton Vegan and Veggie food is so easy to come by, I will always think twice in future when walking out of my door to the shop opposite just to grap a quick carton of Soya Milk.... :( I feel guilty now.........I

Here a big UK vegan supporting wave I hope things change for you soon.

Best wishes
Snaffler :)

Hasha
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:55 AM
That's a real shame. You should do what you feel you must do, but I certainly hope you will come back to veganism at some point.

Incidentally, it looks like I'll be eating pretty much what you described when I go home (Belgrade, Serbia) for the summer break. Since I turned vegan last summer, I've only spent two and a half weeks there (I was on campus the rest of the summer), but this time I'll be there for almost two months. Well, no soy milk (or rather, there was some imported dry soy milk that cost a c*apload of money and didn't taste terribly well; this time I have an intention of going without), to the best of my knowledge, no tofu or tempeh... But actually, I'm more excited than nervous. Locally grown, fresh fruits and veges! And if I can't get much (any?) soy, I can certainly get lentils for example. So I'll be fine. :)

kokopelli
Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:42 AM
Vegan drummer, that is very sad.

But if you're going to Adelaide every 3 months, you could stock up with easily enough food to last, as veganblue said. TVP and dried beans and nuts last for at least a year without going off. Also, you can make your own tofu and tempeh. Tofu is fun to make, but quite time consuming (about an hour to make 1-2lbs).

My partner and I used to run a food co-op where we would go to a wholesaler and buy enough bulk food to last the 3 months between trips, for ourselves and the other members. It's just a question of being organised and working out your needs in advance. And veganblue promised to help you. ;)

I've had 3 kids while being vegan, and they're all perfectly healthy, in fact much healthier than average, they've hardly ever had to visit a doctor. Luckily, I never had the cravings you describe, which must be really hard to deal with. But I can assure you that it's absolutely unnecessary to consume any animal produce while pregnant or breastfeeding, or for babies or children to ever have to eat animal foods.

I sympathise with your predicament, but I think you should think hard about your situation, because I don't think the small amount of animal food you're considering eating will make much difference, nutritionally, and the regressive step it represents psychologically will not be beneficial. Also, if you succumb to temptation now, it will be harder for you to bring up your child as a vegan, because you will see resorting to animal protein as a solution to health problems your child may encounter.

Pregnancy and child rearing are probably the biggest challenges to any mother who rejects 'traditional' values, the time when you feel the judgement of society at large most strongly. But personally I've found staying true to my vegan ideals throughout to be the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Having raised my children as vegans is what I feel most satisfaction with in my life. It's a great opportunity to demonstrate commitment to the sanctity of all life, and our environment. And my children themselves are all glad to be vegan, in fact they have something of a superiority complex about it. :o

I'm fortunate that my partner is also a committed vegan, we became vegan together several years before having our first child. That solidarity has proved indispensible, and I can imagine it would be a lot harder to stay vegan without support.

My partner just suggested setting up your own wholefood co-op in your area, then you wouldn't always have to use your old car, but maybe no-one else is interested?

Anyway, whatever you choose to do, I wish you well, don't stress, be happy! :)

Geoff
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:12 PM
Amanda Benham is an accredited dietician and has raised 2 vegan daughters. See:
http://www.healthy.onestop.net/

Evilfluffbunny
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM
Vegan products are not available - fake meats, etc.

I'm not arguing with you, but don't the 'Cheatin' meats come from Australia? I used to buy sandwich fillings (sliced 'chicken' etc) and I remember reading the label and was surprised to find they were all produced in Australia. I'm not sure if these are still available or not. If it wasn't 'Cheatin' or 'Not' meat then it was something very similar. :o

puffin
Apr 22nd, 2005, 12:59 PM
Sounds like you are having a hard time at the moment and by reading your post i can see it has been hard for you. I have two children and i am so thankful that i didnt crave meat, but i havnt eaten meat for 16 years and to be honest i cant remember what it tastes like ;) I didnt eat the best balanced diet when i was pregnant because i couldnt face a lot of food but my childen were born a very healthy weight, but i can understand why you are worried. I would like to know why you feel like you are not welcome here? reading peoples replys tells me that a lot of people would like you to stay.
Good luck x

kokopelli
Apr 22nd, 2005, 02:25 PM
I forgot to say, the first three months are the worst from the point of view of feeling sick, cravings, etc, so if you hold out a little longer you'll probably start feeling better!

Also, have you seen 'Spiritual Midwifery' by Ina May Gaskin?
It's absolutely brilliant, inspiring and supportive for pregnant vegans.

Ina May Gaskin and Stephen Gaskin founded The Farm in Tennessee, which was originally (in the 1970s) a 1,000 acre farm housing 1,000 vegans, some of whom learnt to be midwives and doctors so they could deliver their own babies. I've found it to be the most helpful book I've ever read on the subject, although some parts are a bit dated now. I've lent my copy to many other expectant mothers, who also found it to be a great help.

I can't recommend it highly enough!
You can get it from Amazon.

:)

Aurora
Apr 22nd, 2005, 02:28 PM
Good luck and whatever you decide to do I hope you have a happy, healthy pregnancy and baby.

Aurora xx

Artichoke47
Apr 22nd, 2005, 03:01 PM
Gosh, that diet sounds great to me. It's all I ever want! :)

I think you should stick with veganism. Have you been having cravings and therefore want to switch to omnivore? I've heard of pregnant women having cravings for flesh/secretion items.

Peas'nHominy
Apr 22nd, 2005, 03:05 PM
Dearest one, my heart feels so heavy for you. :(

I have had three pregnancies. I just want to let you know that I in no way judge you or look down on you. It sounds like everyone here feels the same.

There are a lot of good suggestions here. Are you willing to talk about possibilities? *i say "willing" gently; that is, to not imply you are not a compassionate loving soul. ;) *

Pregnancy is such a beautiful time, and yet it can be very harsh on mommy's body and emotions. Perhaps let us help you through this? We will not be rude ... (If anyone is ignunt enough to be so we'll tell'm to get bent! :D )

VitaminB
Apr 22nd, 2005, 05:18 PM
I'm going to admit I am supportive of your decsision. I don't think we can really understand where you are coming from since we have an easier time. The pregnancy is a huge factor and it might be better for your baby that you get animal product into the babies growth system. I've heard horror stories about vegan and pregnancy. I think when I am pregnant I will at least eat eggs and milk again. I do not want to take any chances. I have heard doctors get very mad about vegan women who are pregnant. I really don't think enough research has been done about veganism to be 100% sure. I would suspect a baby who be born premature or have some health problems. Most of us were concieved on meat and dairy. I think it is more important that you will SURVIVE and provide the adequate health for your baby. I hope you will be able to turn back to the vegan diet again if you wish. Until then, don't worry about it too much. I believe you made a wonderful contribution to not eating meat for the 6 years that you didn't. That is better than most of the world. If everyone limited their consumption...well, what a difference it would make. It would probably solve a lot of poverty/famine, social and political problems. Congrats on the baby and peace!

englishvegoboi
Apr 22nd, 2005, 06:05 PM
I am in full agreement with VitaminB.

I believe that it is possible to have a healthy and a successful pregnancy as a vegan. This however requires careful planning and consideration. For example I wouldn’t recommend tofu consumption during pregnancy as too much unfermented soya depletes iron. Tempeh would be a preferable alternative. There are some very good books available on the subject.

I do however agree that being vegan and pregnant is very difficult in many parts of rural Australia. I am sure that making the long trip to Adelaide to stock up on goods is not always practical, especially when you are pregnant. Therefore it is much better for Vegan Drummer to eat small amounts of free-range organic meat when required.

I am very glad that a member of our forum is bringing a child into the world that will be taught to think critically about important issues such as animal welfare and environmental/ social inequity. In the meantime we must all spread the vegan message so that one day in the not too distant future, it will be practical and easy to be vegan and pregnant, even in the most far flung of places.

I hope that Vegan Drummer can remain with us as an honorary member of the forum.

John
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:34 PM
I can understand why Vegan Drummer is giving up veganism. I can understand why people eat flesh even when they would rather not. Let's face it, a vegan lifestyle can be a pain in the ass. It isn't easy, especially in many rural areas. And if you can't find enough food to feed yourself then you probably should eat meat.

However, a vegan diet does not harm a fetus. Many women give birth to healthy infants after a vegan pregnancy. While plenty of omni women harm their unborn children during pregnancy, most vegan mothers pay special attention to nutrition. All of the nutrients needed by a fetus are provided by a vegan diet. I would like to praise all of the compassionate mothers who believe in veganism enough to be vegan during pregnancy.

kriz
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:50 PM
I'm not arguing with you, but don't the 'Cheatin' meats come from Australia? I used to buy sandwich fillings (sliced 'chicken' etc) and I remember reading the label and was surprised to find they were all produced in Australia. I'm not sure if these are still available or not. If it wasn't 'Cheatin' or 'Not' meat then it was something very similar. :o

Almost everyone asks me why I eat mock meats when I don't like the taste of real animal meat. Should I not get disgusted with the whole thing? Well, there are several reasons why I like it. First of all - mock meat is very easy to prepare, it only needs a quick warm up with no spices or flavors added. I can buy it in big bulks and put it in the freezer.( So, if you live far away from a major city you can bulk up for months.) When there's a meal with, let's say, chicken, rice and beans, all I have to do is adding a piece of soy chicken. Easy. Preparing a separate vegan dish is sometimes too time consuming and inconvenient, especially if you're in someone else's home.

feline01
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:51 PM
I can understand why Vegan Drummer is giving up veganism. I can understand why people eat flesh even when they would rather not. Let's face it, a vegan lifestyle can be a pain in the ass. It isn't easy, especially in many rural areas. And if you can't find enough food to feed yourself then you probably should eat meat.

However, a vegan diet does not harm a fetus. Many women give birth to healthy infants after a vegan pregnancy. While plenty of omni women harm their unborn children during pregnancy, most vegan mothers pay special attention to nutrition. All of the nutrients needed by a fetus are provided by a vegan diet. I would like to praise all of the compassionate mothers who believe in veganism enough to be vegan during pregnancy.

Agree totally, John. I ate healthier during my pregnancy than any omni pregnant woman I've ever seen and I worked up to 2 days before having my twins. My doctor originally predicted that I'd be on bedrest at 20 weeks due to the fact that I was overweight and carrying twins but week after week passed and he would just shake his head in amazement. I repeatedly told him that it was being vegan and I believe that wholeheartedly. My vegan babies turned a year old yesterday and are a glowing testiment to vegan pregnancies and raising children as vegans.

John
Apr 22nd, 2005, 07:53 PM
Hey Feline! Happy birthday to the twins! :)

kokopelli
Apr 22nd, 2005, 09:06 PM
That's great, Feline!
Happy birthday to your children :)

Actually I couldn't disagree more with people who have criticised veganism during pregnancy, except that of course you have to educate yourself and ensure you get everything you need, particularly B12.

Like Feline, I was very healthy throughout all my three pregnancies, and never suffered iron deficiency or anaemia, despite eating tofu and drinking soya milk. I mostly drank prune juice for iron. All the omni women in my ante-natal groups were on iron tablets. I never suffered any of the common late pregnancy complaints, and was able to continue working on my allotment right up till giving birth.

My children are now 19, 17 and 12, they're all exceptionally healthy and my boys haven't grown tits due to soya consumption. :p

I get very tired of people who try to say animal produce is in some way necessary for developing foetuses and children. It's just completely untrue, and vegan parents and children are living proof of this. Unfortunately, many medical professionals are woefully ill-informed on this subject, that's why it's so necessary for vegan mothers to thoroughly research nutritional requirements for themselves.