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Karma
Nov 18th, 2005, 05:49 PM
In my epidemiology textbook there is this graph which shows a clear correlation between meat consumption and bowel cancer for lots of different countries (i.e. countries with the highest meat consumption also have the highest rates of bowel cancer), but apparently you can't say from that that meat causes bowel cancer. It might be that lack of fibre causes bowel cancer and if you eat more meat you also eat less fibre. Or it could be that it's all the vegetarians getting bowel cancer because they aren't eating any meat, and maybe there are more vegetarians in countries with high overall meat consumptions (like as a reaction or protest or something) but they are a small sub-group of the population (it doesn't say that in my book, that's just my interpretation of what they mean when they say you can't tell from those kinds of studies whether it is the same people who eat all the meat who are getting bowel cancer...)

So that's how scientists can rationalise just about anything away, by saying you can't draw any conclusions from that! I think scientists are people too, a bit like your dad.... if they don't like something probably it can be played down or not published or found enough fault in that it ends up being ignored. Or they just don't do the studies in the first place.

I'd love to look into this more... I find it fascinating, but sorry to ramble on!

eclectic_one
Nov 18th, 2005, 06:02 PM
In my epidemiology textbook there is this graph which shows a clear correlation between meat consumption and bowel cancer for lots of different countries (i.e. countries with the highest meat consumption also have the highest rates of bowel cancer), but apparently you can't say from that that meat causes bowel cancer. It might be that lack of fibre causes bowel cancer and if you eat more meat you also eat less fibre. Or it could be that it's all the vegetarians getting bowel cancer because they aren't eating any meat, and maybe there are more vegetarians in countries with high overall meat consumptions (like as a reaction or protest or something) but they are a small sub-group of the population (it doesn't say that in my book, that's just my interpretation of what they mean when they say you can't tell from those kinds of studies whether it is the same people who eat all the meat who are getting bowel cancer...)

So that's how scientists can rationalise just about anything away, by saying you can't draw any conclusions from that! I think scientists are people too, a bit like your dad.... if they don't like something probably it can be played down or not published or found enough fault in that it ends up being ignored. Or they just don't do the studies in the first place.

I'd love to look into this more... I find it fascinating, but sorry to ramble on!
I guess I'm rambling on too then...isn't rambling fun:)

As far as that goes, I think some studies (like the aforementioned Nurses' study) shows that fiber is not the whole story, as the nurses with higher fiber content in their diet did not show a strong reduction in colon cancer rates. However, as I already mentioned, these women did eat LOTS of meat, dairy, eggs, etc. What upsets me is that the "establishment" takes that as proof against diet reducing cancer rates, but they can't see what Dr. Campbell points out--that animal protein is at least a part of the problem! But I think you have hit on something...scientists have their own biases (I know I'm biased in my view to some extent, though I TRY to be critically open-minded) and may intentionally or even unintentionally find the results they expect by their research design (i.e., not comparing vegans to ovo-lacto vegetarians and omnivores), how they "define" variables (i.e., saying dairy helps you lose weight but only counting milk/yogurt/etc directly and inidividually eaten and ignoring dairy in foods--like pizza or cream in soup as one dairy industry funded study did), etc. You're also right that some scientists are so "rabid" that they tend to ignore correlational studies, even if the correlation is almost 100%!

Karma
Nov 18th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Oh, don't get me started on cream in soup... I mean why? ;)

What's all this about dairy and weight loss... must be an American thing?

It's so unfair... the food industry can take the tinyest bit of rubbish 'evidence' and twist it around and spin it to the world, but if those seeking to chllenge the status quo of big business want to quote evidence it had better be cast iron, or it will be ripped to shreds.....

eclectic_one
Nov 18th, 2005, 06:29 PM
What's all this about dairy and weight loss... must be an American thing?

It's so unfair... the food industry can take the tinyest bit of rubbish 'evidence' and twist it around and spin it to the world, but if those seeking to chllenge the status quo of big business want to quote evidence it had better be cast iron, or it will be ripped to shreds.....
Yes, it's an American thing:mad: The dairy industry took a study they funded and claim that by eating three servings of low-fat dairy a day, you could lose more weight than just using a low-fat diet. The problems with the study are myriad, but of course they don't mention any of the "problems" in their ads. A good site for info on how the vegan diet is the best for health (though admittedly they're probably "biased") is http://www.pcrm.org (http://www.pcrm.org/) This group is suing to try to get the ads removed because of how false they are.

eclectic_one
Nov 18th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Seems like this thread has become a "why veganism isn't taken seriously by the scientific community" thread:p

gertvegan
Mar 9th, 2006, 10:15 AM
Vegan lifestyle good for the heart, body, soul and mind

By: Marianne Harris, Thursday, March 9, 2006, http://www.auburnjournal.com (http://www.auburnjournal.com/articles/2006/03/09/news/lifestyle/02vegan.txt)

So, you want to lose weight. You want to live healthier. You want fewer visits to the doctor. Normal blood pressure and cholesterol levels. Clear, unclogged arteries. Pain-free days and nights. A good night's sleep - good digestion - a sharp memory with good concentration. Sexual vitality. Well, stop looking in the pharmacy section. Start looking in your own kitchen. The answer is simple. Veganism. Check it out.

Veganism is a lifestyle free of animal products or by-products - a plant-based diet - which advocates health and compassion.

The first question that comes to mind is "how do you get enough protein?" Let's take a look at this protein issue. Joel Fuhrman, M.D., in his book "Eat to Live," states that an easy way to calculate your own daily protein requirement according to the U.S. RDA is to multiply 0.36 (grams) by your body weight. This translates to about 44 grams for a 120-pound woman and 54 grams for a 150-pound male.

Too much protein is a more common problem. The average person in America consumes foods containing 100 to 120 grams of mostly animal-derived protein daily. This puts a great deal of stress on the kidneys.

Plant-based diets include protein from a wide variety of whole foods consisting of beans, whole-grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, along with products made from these natural foods, such as tofu, tempeh, and meat substitutes. Those who believe plant protein is inferior to animal protein may be surprised to learn that plant proteins contain the same 23 amino acids as animal proteins. It is unlikely that a vegan would be protein deficient.

Let's consider our country's health issues. The three leading causes of death in the United States are heart disease, cancer and stroke. Diet and nutrition are a common denominator of these diseases. In "Diet For A New America," John Robbins states "Researchers compared other nations that cannot afford the rich animal diets. The findings were that the United States and Finland had the highest consumption of animal products, the highest consumption of saturated fats and cholesterol - and the highest death rate from heart disease."

Heart disease is common in societies where much meat is consumed, such as the U.S., Canada, western Europe and Australia, but practically unheard of in societies where meat consumption is low.

Atherosclerosis is a disease that kills almost as many human beings in the industrialized world as all other causes of death combined. The fats of animal flesh, known as saturated fats, do not break down well in the human body, and instead begin to line the walls of the blood vessels. Eventually the blood vessels get more and more constricted. This places a tremendous burden on the heart which has to pump harder to send the blood through the clogged arteries.

Roughage and fiber of a plant-based diet actually helps lower the level of cholesterol. Meat, dairy and eggs are the chief sources of saturated fats and have no fiber. The only plant foods containing saturated fats are coconuts, palm kernel oil and chocolate. The average vegan cholesterol level is about 133, while the average vegetarian cholesterol level is 161. And the average meat-eater's cholesterol level is 210. The recommended cholesterol level is 160.

Cancer is the second killer in our nation. Just to be clear, it's not fat and cholesterol that contributes to cancer; it's animal protein. Fat and cholesterol contributes to heart disease.

Approximately 55,000 people die of colon cancer in the United States each year. The human intestine has a very hard time handling the putrefying bacteria, high levels of fat, and lack of fiber in meat, dairy and eggs products.

Do you have to give up a lot to live a healthy, vegan lifestyle? Just ask any vegan - the answer is no. Choosing a plant-based diet means effectively lowering the risks of a diseased life. Your life matters: it matters how you treat others, how you treat animals, how you treat yourself. Most of all - if you are what you eat - it matters what you eat.

FR
Mar 9th, 2006, 11:07 AM
Good article. I am going to throw it up on my Myspace page.

Apple_Blossem
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:15 PM
I was happy to read on CNN that the American Heart Association is recommending people to cut down on meat/dairy products and to try vegetable alternatives for replacing meat.

I thought some of the other health tips they were recommending were also interesting for myself - such as greatly reducing salt intake and exercising 30 minutes every day (I knew this -- I get about two hours a week in... not enough). We've been eating Tostitos Corn chips which is ten percent saturated fat (yikes). We havent been able to find the baked chips anywhere.

I'm not sure why they keep pushing us to eat fish oils -- wouldn't olive oil/alvacado's suffice? It certainly is "fishy" why they say we should eat it but not when we're pregnant. I think if the mercury intake is not healthy for the growing baby, then it shouldnt be healthy for the mother in general. :P

It's so nice that other people have to find vegetarian/vegan options because it makes it easier for us :) hehe


I posted their recommendations:

Among the panel's other recommendations:
• Limiting saturated fats to no more than 7 percent of daily calories, down from the 10 percent formerly recommended and the 11 percent most Americans consume. Saturated fats are in meat and dairy products, and in coconut and palm oil.

• Getting at least half an hour of exercise a day.

• Eating fruits and vegetables (not fruit juices) that are deep in color, such as spinach, carrots, peaches and berries.

• Choosing whole-grain, high-fiber foods.

• Eating fish, especially oily fish such as salmon and trout, at least twice a week. (Children and pregnant women should follow federal guidelines for avoiding mercury in fish.)

• Choosing lean meats and trying vegetable alternatives.

• Consuming fat-free and 1 percent fat milk and other dairy products.

• Minimizing calories from beverages and avoiding ones with added sugars.

• Adding little or no salt to foods.

• Drinking alcohol in moderation..


article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/06/19/diet.guidelines.ap/index.html

assilembob
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:57 PM
I saw this one too! It's encouraging, although some things I don't agree with, but they must appeal to the average omni

aubergine
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:48 PM
A shame they advise fish as an alternative. It's still an animal fat.

absentmindedfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:06 PM
Not according to my Mum. She was complaining today about how she's only been eating 3 meals a day and she's been 'cutting down' and she still hasn't lost any weight. I said if she's doing all that it must be what she's eating. So she points to her seafood/crayfish sandwhich with vinaigrette dressing and says 'this isn't high fat'. I tell her it is, that all seafood is high in cholesterol and saturated fat. She denies it.

Idiot. No wonder she's a fat old sow with high blood pressure.

Apple_Blossem
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:16 PM
Now now, that's no way to talk about your mom ;).

To refer to someone as a cow in French (une vache) is prettttty unkind. ;)

absentmindedfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:20 PM
I actually called her a sow...a female pig :)
Personally I think it suits her ;)

Apple_Blossem
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:24 PM
I'm laughing out loud because I'm soooo forgetting my english.
I've been studying french for two years in a foreign country... and I make so many mistakes when I do speak English (Which is rarely), that I sound like someone trying to learn English.

I forgot a sow was a pig...:P heheh

madpogue
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:41 PM
That's really not a nice thing to say about pigs (who can be very sweet creatures, BTW).

absentmindedfan
Jun 21st, 2006, 11:51 PM
Ah true, ok I hope the piggies aren't offended at being compared to my mother!!

aubergine
Jun 22nd, 2006, 11:33 AM
AMF - Ignorance is bliss?

absentmindedfan
Jun 22nd, 2006, 11:44 AM
Indeed

sialia
Jun 22nd, 2006, 08:24 PM
i have a pet fish and wouldn't dream of eating her....she's so sweet and happy!

i think they recommend fish oils because they have omega oils in them, but to be honest, so does some soy milk.

eve
Jun 23rd, 2006, 04:15 AM
omega oils are present in flax seed oil - without the mercury!

kriz
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:11 AM
Or Hemp seed oil. It's great.:)

Korn
Jun 9th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Video link: "Make Yourself Heart Attack Proof (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5215695644951404318&q=vegan)"

Caldwell Esselstyn, MD, chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists. Dr. Esselstyn shows you how by changing your diet you can prevent and reverse heart disease. A low-fat plant-based (vegetarian) diet is the key.

jonnie falafel
Dec 8th, 2008, 11:04 AM
"A three-year research study of more than 1,000 individuals with a prior history of coronary heart disease showed that 400 to 800 units of vitamin E per day, taken as a supplement, reduced the risk of heart attack by 35%, when compared to a similar group who took a placebo." -

Stats are funny things though aren't they? Let's see the subjects are 1000 individuals already known to be vulnerable to heart attacks - their risk is lightly higher than those who haven't yet had a heart attack. Say for example that risk can be expressed as about 1 in a 1000 (this is probably an exaggeration) then a 35% reduction in risk equates to 0.0035 people in every 1000 at lower risk of heart attack..... However, there is evidence that filling up on antioxidant supplements (like vitamin E) increases the risk of cancer (probably by only the same margin as it reduces the risk of heart attack but there you go - I don't know the exact figures - you pay your money & you take your choice).

"very interesting I would take my 3% colestral level as a result of being vegan as did my GP recently"

My GP was sceptical about my diet on getting my HDL result. 5.2mmol (not considered high 15 years ago!). I've been vegan for 16 years & don't really eat anything that would be considered junk. Coconut is pretty much my only significant source of saturated fat... now apparently I'm a candidate for statins. Seems to me that big pharma has changed the parameters to increase the customer base. And the 'health food' industry is no better. But as soon as someone like Gillian Mckeith PhD starts telling you to that you need a handful of supplements every day you can be sure it's more about their professional aggrandisement, and building a market for their industry, than your health.

Michael Pollen wrote a book In Defence of Food which is a useful antidote to the nutritionism that has come to dominate our lives. The first sentence "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" (my emphasis on food)just about sums it all up really. When did basic,sensible dietary and lifestyle advice come to be presented in such technical, overcomplicated and biomedical terms?

veganbuzzcock
Oct 8th, 2009, 11:57 PM
I don't know who funds this magazine, but it seemed fairly prestigious: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. The article is from this month. I'd be curious to see what other people know about the subject based on other research done (ie. The China Study). They are basically saying that being a vegan really isn't much better than being a meat eater and it doesn't have anything to do with preventing cancer.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=124364ee9cdfafbd&mt=application%2Fpdf&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F%3Fui%3D 2%26ik%3Db97eb6c32e%26view%3Datt%26th%3D124364ee9c dfafbd%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26realattid%3Df _g0k31f460%26zw&sig=AHBy-haK2gyt3h4Xhi-ksjlj1CeeM-4vEw&pli=1

Korn
Oct 9th, 2009, 12:08 AM
Hi veganbuzzcock, I merged your thread with another thread we already have about the vegan diet and heart disease (we also have this one: B12, homocysteine, & heart disease (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108))

Regarding animal based vs. plant based food and cancer, we already have this (and other) thread(s): Cancer, adaptation and the vegan diet (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19904)

I can't comment the article, because your link only takes me to a site where I have to register... is it available somewhere else?