Dying for Dairy

[jhenn]

So if someone asked you why you are vegetarian what would you say?

I would say that I want to do the right thing, and I view the killing of animals for human consumption not only unecessary in modern society, but also totally immoral based on utilitarian ethics.



Then again if someone asked you why you want to go vegan what would you say to that?

I would say to be totally moral, one must reduce all animal products from the diet as much as possible and conciously.


There must be some sort of passion in you to do this otherwise you wouldnt bother.:)

I really don't have a burning passion for animals. I have more of a passion for being ethical.

I have more of a passion for ethics and doing the right thing

[tabitha]

My youngest son has decided to go vegetarian this week after stuffing his face with McDonalds for about 2 weeks. He loves animals, but turns a blind eye to the suffering. My eldest son isnt particularly bothered about animals but is keen to be healthy and wants to give being vegan a try (mind you I have heard all this before:rolleyes:) We all have our reasons. "Its all good" as my kids say:D Thank you for answering so concisely Jhen.

[UrbanVegan]

You go!
They may be a wee bit over the top, but here's what vegan lunch's can be:

http://veganlunchbox.blogspot.com/

Just a little encourement and inspiration;)

Thanks for the link. I am so totally motivated to try new recipes. My foods tends to consist of any and all variations of veggies with pasta, vegan burgers, veggies sautéed in olive oil over variations of rice, veggies over baked potatoes with soy sour cream and canola butter, fruits, cereals, nuts and being the southerner that I am bowls of grits with canola butter ;) And add to that the occasional cheese-less veggie pizza and veggie Chinese take out.

I need new ideas.
:(

[mrknifey87]

Jhenn, it looks like the problem here is that you haven't completely decided on the ethical approach you want to take. Veganism is such a restrictive diet by normal dieting standards that you'll never be able to succeed unless you're motived solely by the ethical aspect. The health benefits should matter too, but for me it's a positive side effect. You shouldn't feel bad about not having your heart all the way in it yet, because in the end you're only accountable to your own beliefs and not ours :-)

If you've got the interest and not the burning passion, then just keep researching and learning. Pick up and read Fast Food Nation if you haven't already. There are several threads on this forum about consumption of eggs that might help you solidify that in your mind. In the end though, if you decide that animal rights just isn't for you, then rest easy knowing that you ARE doing a big favor to the world by not consuming meat. Giving up dairy would just be the soy icing on that delicious vegan carrot cake!

If you can't afford to go vegan, then PLEASE don't kick yourself at all! It's a sensitive situation for a lot of people and some of the more priveliged vegans like myself sometimes lose sight that others can only do what they can. If you can afford to eat dairy-free a few days a week, then at least shoot for that.

PS, the woman who wrote Student's Vegetarian Handbook REALLY loves garlic a whole, whole lot. Yuck!

[UrbanVegan]

Veganism is such a restrictive diet by normal dieting standards that you'll never be able to succeed unless you're motived solely by the ethical aspect.

I do not agree with that actually. For me the ethical aspect is a positive benefit but my entire motivation is the health benefit. What meat and animal by-products do to the human body is inhumane to the human body first and inhumane to the animal second. As how I see it. I understand the importance of dealing with inhuman treatment to animals but if we stop treating our bodies in an inhumane way as some garbage dump then that eliminates the cause of the slaughter of animals.

[mrknifey87]

I disagree because I reject that eating animal products is inherently unhealthy. If your sole goal is to be healthy and active, eating non-mercury infested fish or grass-fed beef, for example, is not treating your body like a "garbage dump". That comes with the additives inherent in factory farming. While most evidence does point to vegan alternatives being the most healthy, that does not in itself make meat intrinsically unhealthy. Which is why I think it's difficult to center your lifestyle around what is basically a philosophy, for health reasons. It opens itself up to questions like, "well, this is arctic, untouched, perfect salmon that will be relatively good for me, so why can't I fudge this just once?"

I think that ceasing to treat our bodies like garbage dumps would involve shifting the paradigm of industrial farming to natural food sources, like aforementioned grass-fed beef and such. Without getting into humans being "meant" to eat a certain way (which is just completely absurd), it's safe to say that you can live a healthy life as an omnivore, or a healthy life as a vegan. It's just a matter of one being significantly cheaper than the other.

Of course as long as you're a vegan the objective is being accomplished, and you still care about animal rights. But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

[Monday]

I'm sorry but I can't see how you think that eating vegan is more expensive. There are so many cheap vegan foods such as beans and rice. Yes veg and fruit can be expensive but seasonal stuff is cheaper and what vegetarian or meat eater doesn't eat these things too (or at least they should be!!). Meat and dairy are not cheap.

Monday xx

[UrbanVegan]

But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

I guess that depends on who one is speaking too. Before commercial farming the milking of cows was quite humane back on personal farms. People had one or two milk cows and those cows had a healthy life. I'm sure there are dairy farms out there that although they are small and produce far less milk than commercial cow "prisons" the cows on the smaller farms live a pretty happy life.

So if I enjoyed milk but didn't want to support harsh conditions for cows I would buy my milk from these smaller humane dairy farms.

Same with humane chicken coups that collect eggs. I'm sure there are places that collect eggs and the chickens live a very healthy and happy life. These places are small and produce less eggs but the living conditions of their chickens may be very healthy.

So if animal rights was my only reason for thinking going from a vegetarian to a vegan diet and not the health reasons then that's not enough reason. Since there are farmers who have animal friendly farms.

I visit a vegan juice bar in Atlanta and I know the crowd of people who visit. Trust me animal rights is not their motivation for being vegan. They are vegan because they see the body as a spiritual temple and want it to be as healthy and as pure as possible. I've never once heard an animal rights discussion in that place. But lots of discussion on how animal by-products impact the body. The closest I’ve heard of an animal focus conversation is that milk is for baby cows not humans. And eggs are meant to become baby chickens not breakfast. But the rights of the animals? Not their motivation.

[Haniska]

Exactly, we are the only species who drinks milk after weaning.
Lol, can you imagine some sort of predatory animal stalking lactating mothers simply for their milk? :P

[herbwormwood]

Decide whether you really want to do it.
If you don't, don't.
If you do...
I think it may be wise at first not too worry about ingredients lists, that can be rather hard work if you like processed foods.
I had most trouble giving up cow's milk. Eventually I found a soya milk I did not mind the taste of. After a while cow's milk began to tast foul and revolting and rancid, if anyone mistakenly added it to my tea. I could even taste a rancid taste if someone had had milk in the cup and not washed it properly.

[fiamma]

Without getting into humans being "meant" to eat a certain way (which is just completely absurd)

Absurd how? Our intestines are not really designed to cope with digesting meat. And according to the WHO, as much as 75% of the world's population may be alergic to lactose. Because we lack the enzyme necessary to digest it.


But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

I don't agree. It's subjective and depends on personal circumstance. I may not give a hoot about the animals, but if I am allergic to milk then that's pretty compelling.

[vegan1969]

this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3214100593069532942&q=vegan)helped a friend of mine go from ovo-lacto to vegan

[grrrnola]

It's just like being on holiday in a country where you can't buy the food stuff you're used to: it's better to enjoy the sun and the new things you can eat, instead of focusing on what you can't get. Personally I went vegan overnight, but had strong cravings for a lot of things after that, and switched back and forth several times before I ended up in a situation where I know I won't go back to cheese, yoghurt or meat again.

wow that hits home! i'm from toronto canada and i'm living in madrid now, except not on holiday, i am studying here for a year, and all i can think about is how i can't buy the organic stuff i need, and how i can't get my favourite organic dark chocolate without soy lecithin, and stuff like that.

[coney]

What's really good, is 1cup soymilk, with 2 bananas, some molasses (1-2 TB), and ground up dates, or maple syrup in smoothie form. Damn, I could slam a gallon of that stuff!

Molasses actually makes the soymilk taste somewhat chocolatey, not sure why.

Probably adding chocolate syrup to it would really rock.

[karmadust]

I agree with Artichoke47 - go on YouTube and look for videos about animal cruelty (if you search for Animal Liberation Front you get some good ones), or there are pro-animal websites that offer the same footage. I can hardly stand to watch them because it tears me apart and i cry and cry and cry...BUT, when you just can't get over a craving, it will definitely remind you why it's just not worth it. In fact, you'll probably be completely turned off. I'm not the type who can watch those things very often at all, but I force myself to whenever I start to feel lazy about my ethics. It's an instant craving killer...

[Leanne]

Maybe try ice cream instead? There's a brand of ice cream called 'Swedice Glace' and they sell flavours of Vanilla, Strawberry and Chocolate, I got mine from Tesco but they also sell them in health shops.. also apparently the nestle icecream 102 dalmations is vegan too.. I'd suggest those, or even melting them a bit so there more similar in a liquid sense to yoghurt!

[Korn]

An interesting aspect of Breaking the Food Seduction, is that he suggests people to try to plan only 3 weeks ahead to begin with, and make a decision afterwards. So much happens in three weeks, that if someone is able to drop old habits for 3 weeks, most likely they will decide to continue.

...and here' a link to an article based around the same observations Breaking The Food Seduction is based upon:

Breaking the Food Seduction (http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/barnard_food_seduction.htm)

Some people think that they actually need eg. cheese or yogurt, and it seems like a natural step # 1 is to understand that humans don't need mother's milk from other animals, and to find new, vegan ways to get the nutrients they have relied on animal products for in the past.

[Shells]

Sorry, I just saw that you posted again saying you don't yet feel comitted. In that case, why not just try to cut down on dairy/eggs instead of forbidding them completly? It seems you know you want to go vegan, you just aren't ready yet. There is nothing to say it has to be all or nothing for you. You can cut out eggs/dairy from what you eat every day, and still allow yourself to eat it sometimes, as a treat, when eating away from home, etc.

IMO, it's whatever works for you. Every little bit counts, and if you are more likely to stick with a plan that allows a little dairy now and then, that is still better for your health, animals and the environment than eating it every meal a day.

I just want to say that I found what you said here, and in the post prior to this, extremely helpful. I'm transitioning to veganism myself, but I can't go cold tofu, and the idea of not being able to do it all the way at first has been giving me agida (sp?). I love the way you've outlined giving up dairy gradually; it seems so smart to me! And I love what you say about it not being all or nothing. I'm not sure why exactly, but that was just a hugely comforting thing to see in print! I think the main thing for is that I don't think of it as a sacrifice. I don't feel like I'm giving anything up by not eating eggs straight (I've had to the past few days and frankly it's been driving me crazy) but there are somethings that are less obvious that I am going to have to rethink in order to give up without feeling like I'm "giving up" anything.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really appreciated what you said. I think I'll have a much better transition to veganism if take the time I need to do it well, and if I don't spend time beating myself up for not going all the way immediately!

And just to contribute to the more current discussion, my motivation is animal rights first, and personal health...

um, a very distant second? I've never been particularly health concious aside from a desire to loose excess poundage. I am, however, discovering a new found interest in nutrition. It's more like a side-effect for me though, not the catalyst.

[bandita]

If you miss cheese, try getting the book "the Uncheese Cookbook" by Joanne Stepaniak. I have both editions, but haven't used the 2nd one much. 1st one is great. Some ingredients may seem foreign, but once you find a source, it's easy. Nutritional yeast and agar-agar may seem expensive, but a little goes a long way. In every health food store I've seen agar-agar, it's a fortune, but you can find great deals online in huge packages that can last for years.

If you miss milk, there's some tasty soymilks out there (and not-so-tasty). If you try one you don't like, don't give up. Different brands taste very different from each other. My personal favorite is Silk and 8th Continent. Great to drink alone or for recipes calling for milk.

[pinkcharge]

I think I might invest in that book, cheese is the thing I found the hardest to give up, even though the very thought of what it is is disgusting, it was melted cheese and cakes! I still crave cheese when I've got a hangover.

I don't think yeast flakes are too expensive, I suppose most vegan store cupboard things can be, but once you've bought them they can last a while.

[Haniska]

I do not agree with that actually. For me the ethical aspect is a positive benefit but my entire motivation is the health benefit. What meat and animal by-products do to the human body is inhumane to the human body first and inhumane to the animal second. As how I see it. I understand the importance of dealing with inhuman treatment to animals but if we stop treating our bodies in an inhumane way as some garbage dump then that eliminates the cause of the slaughter of animals.



Vegans don't give up leather, fish oil, Vitamin D3 and animal testing for health reasons. I really don't understand why "for health" can be a main reason (as in possibly the only reason).
I'd think that a Vegan would be more likely to avoid all animal products than a Pure Vegetarian. If both were offered birthday cake the vegan would abstain where I could see the vegetarian saying "Well..okay." Or maybe choosing the cake with whole wheat and honey instead of white flour and sugar.

[thefunkywizard]

Someone help, I love cheese.
I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian my whole life. (my mother's parents are Seventh-Day Adventists.)
I don't drink milk, rarely have ice cream, like margarine anyways,
but sharp cheddar cheese is killing me.
Can someone suggest a good substitute, because the Veggie Slices brands are ok for sandwhiches, but for spahghetti (I like mine with cheese.)
or salads etc... I can't find a good substitute, please help.

thanks!

[harpy]

Hello - you have different fake cheese products in the US from the ones we have here. I think you can get our ones Cheezly and Sheese from online stores there if you want to try them - Cheezly exists in a melting version that might be better for your spaghetti. Another thing that's good sprinkled on spaghetti is a mixture of ground nuts, nutritional yeast and salt crystals, food-processed together to give you a powder that's a bit (but not all that much) like Parmesan - think I got this idea from a book, maybe Joanne Stepaniak's Uncheese Cookbook which has a lot of recipes for fake cheese.

I have to say none of the fake cheeses I've tried (either homemade or bought) was all that close to cheese, though. You might be better trying to find something completely different that you like equally well and can eat at the same times - a lot of us here are pretty keen on hummus which you could have with your salads. Cubes of marinated tofu can also be nice in a salad.

[herbwormwood]

Redwoood's Strong Cheddar is similar to dairy cheddar.

[horselesspaul]

Someone help, I love cheese.

Remember, it's not food, it's rancid baby calf sustenance.