Manure

[gertvegan]

I emailed a breakfast cereal company to check its products were vegan, and received a nice swift reply, but it mentioned that it may not consider the products vegan as animal waste had been used as a fertiliser. I wondered what you lovely people thought.

[artbeat]

Hi, that wouldn't bother me more than breathing in air that someone else might have had in their lungs at some point - which we all do all the time. Should we avoid everything an animal have been envolved in, we couldn't even turn on the radio - in case someone would play a drum with skin from an animal on it in a song. Using manure from animals in itself doesn't harm them, and no animals are captured for their manure.

[Sabster]

That gets into technicalities and how far you're willing to go. In that case well erm well I'd consider it vegan. I think veganism is more about very direct things... when you start digging too deep it turns into a lot of work that's kind of counterproductive in the end and rather frustrating. But everyone has their own limits.

[Roxy]

Yes I have wondered about the manure thing too, considering that, as far as I know, it's a common fertilizer used in growing fruit and veg.

Roxy

[Korn]

In some so called 'primitive' cultures, where people don't keep animals captured, collecting manure from wild animals is part of their lives.

[John]

How about ground-up fish who were caught specifically to be fertilizer? Or dried blood? How about the the animals who were killed by pesticides, or chopped up by combines, or run over on the the way to market? Its not so simple. I guess you have to grow your own food.

[gertvegan]

I only ask I was curious what you all thought. I understand its how far each person decides to take it. There is of course vegan organic produce, see www.veganorganic.supanet.com but this is very small at present. Presumably the manure used on our veg is mainly by products of the meat production industry, so what is better, using animal waste manure or pesticides, therefore avoiding animal waste ?

[eve]

It's not only manure that goes on our growing veges, especially organic, but also blood & bone that obviously depends on supplies from abattoirs, as well as horn used by biodynamic growers. It would be great if it were pssible to buy veganorganically grown produce, or to have some ground in which to grow veges oneself, perhaps all we can do is eat the stuff and keep our fingers crossed!

[soilman]

I have been growing fruits and vegetables organically for a good 6 years or so with very nice yield. I use composted plant matter, material collected from mowing the lawn, tree leaves, kitchen waste. I plant green manures and cover crops. Some non-garden lawn areas get clover, which has more nitrogen than grass.

At first I collected leaves and grass clippings from neigbor's yards as well as my own, to rapidly build up organic matter in the soil but this doesn't seem to be necessary any more. I do supplement with industrially-produced nitrogen plant food. (http://www.materials.addr.com/nitrogen.shtml)

Last year I got an acceptable yield of very delicious canteloupes using compost only, no industrial nitrogen, no additives, but felt I could have gotten an even better yield if I had measured nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium as I had often done in years before, and supplemented with small (cooperative extension-recommended) amounts.

You do need lots and lots of compost. Much more than people seem to think. For 2000 square feet I always have 3 compost piles going, each of which start out at 20 feet long by 4 feet high by 6 feet wide, and when finished are about 6 feet long by 2 feet high by 3 feet wide. And this is really not enough compost.

Also see:
http://www.materials.addr.com/food.shtml
http://www.materials.addr.com/food3.html#excrement
http://www.materials.addr.com/garden5.shtml
http://www.materials.addr.com/garden6.html
http://www.materials.addr.com/garden7.html

Yes, I am getting too old to do all the physical labor myself. We may however be able to get a communal farm and get young vegans to do the labor when I explain what needs to be done.

[eve]

hello Soilman, it's really wonderful that you produce foods using those methods. I do hope that you get some help from eager vegans who can help. :)

[soilman]

Actually, I am going to die soon, and if I don't start a communal farm before I die, my veganic growing secrets will die with me. I don't want to publish my techniques for everyone to benefit from, whether they are vegan or not. I want to only pass my techniques on to people who are committed to veganity -- to living without animal husbandry -- so that they can prosper, and prosper better than non-vegans.

One of my neigbors who tasted my giant edible pod green beans said they were by far the sweetest, tenderest green beans she had ever tasted. Raw or cooked, they were like a whole other thing from local-farm-stand green beans. There is just no comparison. Same thing with edamame vs healthfoodstore frozen edamame.

Same with turnips. You would think you are getting a different vegetable altogether, even when compared with good farm-stand turnips.

Yes I grow watermelons and canteloupes. This are comparable with high quality commercial melons. My sweet corn is better than ordinary fresh Long Island sweet corn.

[John]

Wow, Soilman I wish you good health. I would join you If I weren't so deep in debt. Maybe If you place an ad or something. I know there's a vegan newspaper down the shore here in Jersey.

[Geoff]

How about making contact with Robert Cohen, The Notmilkman. He seems to be into veganism and organic gardening.
Best Wishes Soilman

[tsunami]

Remember that male baby chicks are ground up live afterbeing brn and made into manure. Which pretty muc supports the poultry industry, as in not making thempay for it, buy paying the ones who pay them and support them. Also many hens have the same done to them. Or with fish and such. Factory farm and slaughterhouse wastes, blood and bonemeal also go into it.

Though as well, when you help get rid of the main industry those practices should end. Even so, best to buy the better produce. Like organic, but without containing the animal products as much as possible, but stil staying sane. ~_^

[tsunami]

Try advertising in VegNews. They are a very good magazine and reach many. As well as Vegetarian Times and such. I am sure if you explained your situation, they might help for free, and otherwise it is not very expensive to advertise there. As logn as it is related to cruelty-fee and veganism. MAke sure you mention you do not use, GMO's, animal products and whatever so. Good luck ^_^

[soilman]

tsunami writes:

" Even so, best to buy the better produce. Like organic.."

Problem is, organic farmers are even more likely to use things such as blood meal, bone meal, animal feces, ground up baby chiks, etcetera, than non-organic farmers, who just buy the cheapest thing -- which is Haber process nitrogen, made from air and natural gas or petroleum (and phosphates and potassium made from rocks).

The problem with that is, of course, that haber process nitrogen does not have all the micronutrients that compost has, or that even feces has. And of course compost is the clear winner when it comes to adding "humus" to the soil -- decaying plant matter which aids root formation and micronutrient absorption (sort of the way "fiber" aids human digestion).

Also, a lot of the flavor for sure, and some of the nutrition, of plants, -- how much nutrition? we don't really know yet -- is a result of things in the soil that they take up -- even tho they don't, themselves, need the things. The are "doing it for us." For example this has long been known, and scientifically proven, about iodine. Humans need iodine. Plants have no use for it. But for millions of years, humans got it from plants. If it is in the soil, and it is in many places -- plants will take it up and sequester it -- store if for humans who they know are going to eat them. It is so much fun to "personify" them -- but don't forget that plants often depend on animals for pollen and seed transport, so it makes sense for them to feed the animals they depend on. In the case of humans and agricultural plants -- who is zoomin who? Are humans opportunisticly taking advantage of plants? Or are the plants opportunistically "baiting" us into taking care of them? Note that, like parasitic organisms, agricultural plants tend to appear simpler as time goes on. Some of the things they did themselves, are now done for them by their "hosts."

As long as farmers grow food on newly found soil, nutrients like iodine will be in their food. But once the iodine is depleted after a year or 3 of agriculture, farmers, in a capitalist system, have no incentive to replace the iodine. Plants will grow big, and be marketable, without the iodine. And who knows, there, may be 1000's of other soil chemicals that we benefit from similarly -- that we don't even know about. There undoubtedly are chemical like this that affect flavor -- as anyone who has repeately grown the same plants in the same soil can tell you -- although if plants lose their flavor a tiny bit year by year, people may sometimes not really notice -- same reason they don't notice the hour hand on the clock moving.

Example: my sweet corn has better flavor and sweetness on newly cleared soil. I cannot figure out what it is that they need to stay flavorful year after year. Information about what they need to stay healthy and productive -- that I can find fairly easily. i can produce nice, big, juicy-looking ears year after year, by knowing what to add to the soil. But the best I can do to maintain flavor, is to use the shotgun approach -- add everything I can think of, hoping that some of it somewhere will contain what the plants need to maintain flavor. Next year I am, experimentally, going to try seaweed, as I know this has a wide variety of minerals that I won't find in the local oak leaves (that fall in the fall) I collect, or the local green manures I grow in the same soil, year after year. But of course you can't use too much seaweed -- salt content.

[John]

I have read that some believe that Neolithic (late stone age) farmers where actually healthier than modern humans. Their wilder crop strains had more nutrients and limestone millstones provided calcium. I assume they used slash-and-burn farming rather than intensive agriculture so the soil was always fertile. They also had better land than modern slash-and-burn farmers who have been forced to the margins. I wouldn't be suprised if in the future we had to use human sewage for fertilizer here.

It has occured to me before whether it is more cruel to eat organic or conventional because of the sources of fertilizer most organic farms use. I also consider the farmers' and itinerant workers' exposure to toxic chemicals. Also, phosphate mining has destroyed much land on polynesian islands desperate for cash.

The people of today are really screwing the people of tommorow by using up these resources quicker than neccessary so that they can enjoy biting into animal flesh.

[phillip888]

Soilman, I'm building a communal house soon (out of dirt at that), and I intend to grow mostly trees, but I will be doing berries, potatoes, and other veggies, even a little rice if I can find a hearty strain. My only experience so far is watching my landlords who use my compost to feed their garden (I'm a raw vegan). I'm only interested in cruelty free fertilizer, and recently I've been reading about rock dust to add minerals and increase soil growth. Have you experimented with rock dust at all? From what I've read it lowers the requirement for fertilizer and increases trace minerals and growth drastically. On top of that it can be made on site if you have the right stones around and a healthy love of smashing and grinding things.

Oh, and I will be experimenting with human manure, I think it might as well do something useful. Of course I know the precautions to take, and it will only be used to grow a small compostable greywater crop.

Also I'm working on a forum right now with vegan gardening using permacultural principals as one of the main topics (it's kind of a total vegan living forum), once it gets going would you be interested in contributing?

[ConsciousCuisine]

Philip, are you looking to build an intentional commuinity in California that is looking for like-minded vegan folk to build community? (please say yes, please say yes, please say YES!)

[soilman]

I don't know much about rock dust. I think a lot depends on the makeup of the rocks. I think commercial sources of phosphorous and potassium are largely chemically treated rocks but my memory is not so good on this.

I am not too enthusiastic about using human feces and urine or human cadavers (either could correctly be called human manure). If I did use it, I would only use it from vegan humans, and only feces and urine (no cadavars), and not directly. That is, I would not put it directly on food plants, but I might use a small amount only in soil that will only be used for growing green manures, shade trees, or ornamental gardens [edited to add fibers such as cotton where the seeds aren't pressed for oil, linen, hemp, flax where the seeds aren't eaten, trees for lumber, fibers for basket-making, cane for furniture, etcetera).

As far as intentional communities, my idea of what makes a good vegan intentional community may be very different from what other vegans think is a desirable community. I like animals, but I do not like living with "companion" animals, and especially I do not want these rascals indoors with me.

[phillip888]

Philip, are you looking to build an intentional commuinity in California that is looking for like-minded vegan folk to build community? (please say yes, please say yes, please say YES!)
No sorry. I had considered california, but the entire state seems obsessed with keeping poor and non-materialistic people homeless or at least poor. I know there are some exceptions in northern california, but not many. I'm looking at land in oregon right now. Many counties in oregon allow earth friendly building methods and are less economically totalitarian than most states. Second in line is colorado, but land value and taxes are rapidly increasing there too. There is also a lot more mixed and general zoning in oregon, which would allow me to run my property as a farm and live on it with others.

Oh, BTW there is a raw foodist farm commune north of LA. I can't remember what it's called though.


Also my understanding of intentional community is that it's a group of like minded people owning and living in their own neighborhood. My intention is to build a small centralized village where people live and farm, and leave the majority of my property for the plants and animals, but still cared for by the people. Think of it as a designed (mostly) independent ecosystem.

Soilman, I would use human manure for green crops which would also be my greywater field. Not to reclaim greywater directly for consumption, but to put it to real use. All human manure would be sterilized using a simple sun baking chamber. Of course I have no use for non-vegan waste. Any other kind of waste wouldn't be good enough for my dirt.

From what I've read the rock type does dictate how useful rock dust can be. Fortunately in the northwest you can have hundreds of tons of decent rock dust delivered to your house for very little $$, as rock dust is also a waste product.

[soilman]

Phillip888, a lot of what you say about your plans isn't really clear to me. It just is really hard to tell what you have in mind, what kind of community and what kind of garden, you mean.

For example

Also my understanding of intentional community is that it's a group of like minded people owning and living in their own neighborhood. My intention is to build a small centralized village where people live and farm, and leave the majority of my property for the plants and animals, but still cared for by the people. Think of it as a designed (mostly) independent ecosystem.
Seems rather vague. Just about any neigborhood could be considered a group of like-minded people owning (owning what) and living in their own neigborhood.


Soilman, I would use human manure for green crops which would also be my greywater field. Not to reclaim greywater directly for consumption, but to put it to real use. All human manure would be sterilized using a simple sun baking chamber. Of course I have no use for non-vegan waste. Any other kind of waste wouldn't be good enough for my dirt.

"Manure" means anything you add to the soil with the intention of improving it. So "human manure" is really, really vague. But assuming you really mean "human urine and feces" where you say "human manure," you still are vague here. What do you mean by "green crops" anyway? Most all plants are green. How can crops, plants, be "greywater" or a greywater field? A greywater field is simple a place where you send gray water and allow it to collect. It is not any kind of plant. Also, the use of feces in a field makes it not, a graywater field -- graywater is water that has been used for things like washing dishes, washing clothes, bathing, washing hands.

While we are on the subject of using feces for plant-food -- the diesease carrying capacity of feces is not the only problem with feces for gardening. A major problem is the accumulation, concentration, of toxic materials such as heavy metals. Simply sterilizing feces does not rid it of heavy metals. Tho herbivorous feces have less than that from carnivorous or omnivorous animals. Nevertheless, i don't think sunbaking of feces makes it entirely sterile. Furthermore, entirely sterile feces would not have the main advantage that there is of feces, over directly composted plant matter (plant matter composted in a pile or wooden bin, rather than in a gastrointestinal system)compost bin). This advantage is its higher bioactivity -- the presence of more bacteria.

see http://www.materials.addr.com/food3.html#excrement

Continue to the bottom of the page.

[soilman]

I think if we want to have an intentional community, we have to get much more specific. Not immutable, but specific. The specifics should be changeable, but they need to be specific, to prevent misunderstanding, so that people know what their duties and responsibilities are, and aren't, and what will be accepted at the community, and what won't.

And I will be getting funds to start such a community.

[soilman]

While I am at an age (56) where these things are no longer extremely important to me, think we have to take into account the desire for general companionship and desire for sex, of young people. For example males and females tend to have different desires, regarding both. I don't think it is enough to say simply forumulate that anything that happens between consenting adults is allowed. Do we want to have further, and clearly specified, constrictions? They may be a good idea. After all, women could get pregnant from men who live on the community, or off. Who is economically responsible for what children? Is this of no importance? I think it needs to be thought about. And spelled out in writing, glasnost. What about sexually transmitted diseases. Women in the community could, for example, get them from men in the community, who had sex with someone outside the community. Likewise, men from women.

The number of dependent children, children who need food clothing and shelter but can't work hard at making them or earning money, could have a large impact on economic ability for community to continue.

I think we have to consider, and organize, what tasks need to be done, and who is responsible for what. How much division of labor? Is each person just going to decide for themselves what they think needs to be done, or is there going to be planning and leadership system? To get a crop in, on time, almost military precision is needed.

[ConsciousCuisine]

No sorry. I had considered california, but the entire state seems obsessed with keeping poor and non-materialistic people homeless or at least poor. I know there are some exceptions in northern california, but not many. I'm looking at land in oregon right now.
I am a Native and I couldn't agree more. Please give me more information about what you are working to do in Oregon! Oregon, Hawaii or Costa Rica were my next choices outside of California... I am very interested in such groups and have come up with many blocks attempting to start a community here due to money and governmental/zoning issues.