'Animals kill each other too'

[streetcat]

some thinking - and maybe (fake) logic.

:confused:

I've seen explanations for "why vegan" which are in many cases "for animals' sake"; the fact that animals are kept in nasty conditions and forced to give birth/ be milked/ give eggs/or smth else and be killed in the end. They don't deserve such treatment because they are living creatures... and by no means lower than humans.
That is something that makes a lot of sense. But... how are things different with the plants? Aren't they planted wherever and whenever the fruit and vegetable industry people want them to be? Aren't they chemicalized/trimmed/ and so on, im sure it's a lot going on.... and in the end robbed of their babies (fruits and vegetables are their babies or at least like the hens' eggs since they have the potential of developping into a whole new plant)?
I mean since animals are no worse than humans then plants are no worse than animals and so on and so on. So the only way really not to hurt anyone is to stop eating at all :(

So the question i guess is - how do you decide where to draw the line?

[sugarmouse]

i hear ya.andi have heard of folks who wont eat certainplants eg lettuce as they have what we call a 'heart!!'


BUT animals are complex beings tome.at least the ones we generally use foor food are.they can feel pain/emotions/fear.we should not inflict this on them
thats my big reason,but more personally i dont beleive i would eat an animal that had died painlessly or, as someoen sorry dont remember whom it was, said onhere recently, even if it felt pleasure during death i wouldnt.i do not think we are meant to eat animals.maybe if i didnt know what i kwno abouut the suffering, i would feel diffeent.but i wil never know.

bk to point, where do i draw the line, i draw it at animalls.i wont eat them.i eatplants.lol i cnt explain it and i agree it is a good question, i wotn eat clams/mussels etc despite the argument that their systems arent developed tofeel pain etc..cos they are an animal...f someoen can explai better please please do! :confused:

[Tao]

I mean since animals are no worse than humans then plants are no worse than animals and so on and so on. So the only way really not to hurt anyone is to stop eating at all :(
You don't actually mean that people who "kill" a plant should be considered murderers, right, and be punished? Explain yourself why, and voila! there's the answer to your question.

[Seaside]

some "thinking"....? :confused:

Try a search, and you will find many posts on the subject of "plants have feelings too." You are not unique or original in asking this question.

But I'll make a deal with you. If you watch a video of a what goes on in a slaughterhouse, I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest, and then we can continue the discussion. :rolleyes:

[streetcat]

You don't actually mean that people who "kill" a plant should be considered murderers, right, and be punished? Explain yourself why, and voila! there's the answer to your question.

I don't know whether they "kill" the plant or no. But technically... if taking the strawberries away from the strawberry plant and eating them is harmless and OK ... then - taking the eggs from a hen ... should be too?!??

[Roxy]

Are you vegan streetcat?

[streetcat]

some "thinking"....? :confused:

Try a search, and you will find many posts on the subject of "plants have feelings too." You are not unique or original in asking this question.

But I'll make a deal with you. If you watch a video of a what goes on in a slaughterhouse, I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest, and then we can continue the discussion. :rolleyes:

i didn't attempt to patent my question ... and have no expectations of originality. i was just... "thinking" :|

about the strawberry harvest versus the slaughterhouse. so - whatever looks quiet and peaceful is ok? and as long as the creature in question is not too much like us - it looks good and fine? that's the exact same logic people use in those same slaughterhouses.


anyway. im just confused thats all.

[streetcat]

Are you vegan streetcat?

not entirely yet. but am in the process. have cut off dairy, eggs, red meat. will cut off the rest soon, it won't work well if it's too sudden.

[streetcat]

i hear ya.andi have heard of folks who wont eat certainplants eg lettuce as they have what we call a 'heart!!'


BUT animals are complex beings tome.at least the ones we generally use foor food are.they can feel pain/emotions/fear.we should not inflict this on them
thats my big reason,but more personally i dont beleive i would eat an animal that had died painlessly or, as someoen sorry dont remember whom it was, said onhere recently, even if it felt pleasure during death i wouldnt.i do not think we are meant to eat animals.maybe if i didnt know what i kwno abouut the suffering, i would feel diffeent.but i wil never know.

bk to point, where do i draw the line, i draw it at animalls.i wont eat them.i eatplants.lol i cnt explain it and i agree it is a good question, i wotn eat clams/mussels etc despite the argument that their systems arent developed tofeel pain etc..cos they are an animal...f someoen can explai better please please do! :confused:

:) thanks for the answer.

[Roxy]

Congratulations and I hope you successfully continue your path to veganism.

You cannot compare the animals to plants. They are 2 entirely different things. Yes, they are living entities, but plants are not sentient beings with thoughts and feelings. Animals are. So you cannot apply the same logic.

You cannot compare the torturous life of a battery hen with that of a strawberry growing in a field. A chicken is an intelligent animal with thoughts, emotions and physical feelings. Most battery hens have their beaks cut off when they are chicks, they are then kept in a small confined space for the rest of their lives, never seeing daylight. They are fed so much that they become so fat that their legs give way and they cannot even stand. When it comes time to die, they are hung upside down, have their throats slit and perhaps even their heads ripped off, and then they are dunked into vats of boiling hot water, some of them are even still conscious during this. Are you imagining the seething pain of this?

Please don't insult this forum by applying the same logic of a strawberry growing in a field to that of a battery hen. Please do some further research into the matter and until then, stick to the "Not a Vegan Yet" part of the forum.

[Kumem]

not entirely yet. but am in the process. have cut off dairy, eggs, red meat. will cut off the rest soon, it won't work well if it's too sudden.

I agree that some people don't like to do it too suddenly, but from your post it would appear that you eat white meat - am I right? Do you also eat fish? If so, I am curious as to why you have cut out dairy and eggs, but not white meat and fish.

[streetcat]

I agree that some people don't like to do it too suddenly, but from your post it would appear that you eat white meat - am I right? Do you also eat fish? If so, I am curious as to why you have cut out dairy and eggs, but not white meat and fish.


yeah, i still eat those - less and less often. i started some time ago with cutting off dairy and red meat for health reasons; then eggs went too. next will be white meat; fish would probably go last.

but the reasoning behind it all was not exactly the violence. there's lots of it in nature and it's just one of the sides of the coin. animals can too hurt and kill each other, eat each other and so on (plants too, and all the way down to some germs, that can kill any size of a creature). it was more the "industry" approach to it all that makes me feel uncomfortable. the direct exploitation of nature as much as possible for one's own profit. and that applies to plants too (IMHO). it's like - the animal can kill the other animal because behind it all is the survival of the fittest and they were facing each other before that and each of them was competing for its life.
but me personally, i got no physical/direct contribution as to what's on my plate (ok, i earned the money to buy the food but that's sooo indirect). in order to have one - that would require a total change of lifestyle... which i dont even know if its possible.

anyway. seems the questions i'm having aren't exactly comfortable and by some standards - insulting. so i'd rather keep to myself from now on - just like always before. thanks for listening anyway. and good luck to everyone.

[Kumem]

yeah, i still eat those - less and less often. i started some time ago with cutting off dairy and red meat for health reasons; then eggs went too. next will be white meat; fish would probably go last.

but the reasoning behind it all was not exactly the violence. there's lots of it in nature and it's just one of the sides of the coin. animals can too hurt and kill each other, eat each other and so on (plants too, and all the way down to some germs, that can kill any size of a creature). it was more the "industry" approach to it all that makes me feel uncomfortable. the direct exploitation of nature as much as possible for one's own profit. and that applies to plants too (IMHO). it's like - the animal can kill the other animal because behind it all is the survival of the fittest and they were facing each other before that and each of them was competing for its life.
but me personally, i got no physical/direct contribution as to what's on my plate (ok, i earned the money to buy the food but that's sooo indirect). in order to have one - that would require a total change of lifestyle... which i dont even know if its possible.

anyway. seems the questions i'm having aren't exactly comfortable and by some standards - insulting. so i'd rather keep to myself from now on - just like always before. thanks for listening anyway. and good luck to everyone.

I don't think insulting is the right word; it's just bizarre. I don't know how you can even begin to attempt to compare plants and animals. I just cannot comprehend your questionning. It must be agony, absolute agony, combined with sheer terror, for an animal in a slaughterhouse. A plant, without a brain, a heart, a nervous system, doesn't feel that. Sorry, but I cannot get my head around you! :D

[sugarmouse]

i wouldnt leave the forum.you were just asking a question that was bound to start a lil controversy! if that was what you were saying :)

[adam antichrist]

The question is do they suffer. If plants could suffer, they would be able to run away.

[Seaside]

i didn't attempt to patent my question ... and have no expectations of originality. i was just... "thinking" :|

about the strawberry harvest versus the slaughterhouse. so - whatever looks quiet and peaceful is ok? and as long as the creature in question is not too much like us - it looks good and fine? that's the exact same logic people use in those same slaughterhouses.


anyway. im just confused thats all.
It is very simple. Vegans do not view animals as food products. Quiet and peaceful death for animals does not render them suitable as "food". A sea urchin, a creature about as similar to a human as a strawberry is, would die almost as quietly and peacefully as a strawberry, but it is an animal, and as such has a right to exist unmolested by humans. There are plenty of creatures who do eat sea urchins; people should not be among their number.

An egg belongs to the bird who laid it. It is nothing like a strawberry, that is designed to attract consumption in order to disperse its seed through the digestive activities of the creature who eats the strawberry, and eliminates the seed through the bowel movement. The consumption of eggs does not enhance the egg's ability to turn into a chicken the same way the consumption of fruits enhances the ability of the seed to germinate and turn into a new plant. People may like to call eggs "hen fruit", but there is no similarity at all.

As far as "the exact same logic people use in those same slaughterhouses", I am afraid you have lost me here. Are there quiet, peaceful, tranquil slaughterhouses where creatures without brains, eyes, emotions, and the ability to suffer are being given every luxury, and then killed gently in their sleep? I cannot be convinced that there is any sort of logic at all being used by people responsible for raising and slaughtering animals for human use.

Anyway, the question for vegans is not "should we kill for food at all", but "what can we kill for food that causes the least harm". If you think that killing animals is less harmful than killing plants, you are not in the right place.

By the way, the phrase "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with two animals killing each other in competition for resources. It means that which "fits" into its chosen niche the best is the most likely to survive. There are sea animals like corals, anemones, and clams which have algae living symbiotically within their tissues, and these animals can simply expose their tissues to sunlight to obtain nutrients that are photosynthesized by the algae living within them. Killing is not necessary for these creatures to survive in their chosen niches; all they need to worry about is locating themselves close enough to the surface of the water to obtain enough sun.

You cannot justify humans killing animals for food by saying all animals kill to survive, because they don't. And the fact that a rabbit may be killed by a fox has nothing to do with the fox being fitter to survive than the rabbit. If a fox were required to survive in the rabbit's chosen niche, and eat nothing but plants,the fox would soon die. The same for the rabbit if it had nothing but fox-food to eat. People trying to squeeze themselves into a carnivorous niche are twisting the whole concept of "survival of the fittest", rather than following it.

[Korn]

and in the end robbed of their babies
I think this is a very theoretical and weird way of looking at plants, mainly heard from meat eaters who try not to feel guilty about killing animals for food. But you seem to agree, as you warned us against fake logic' already in your first post! :)


since animals are no worse than humans then plants are no worse than animals and so on and so on. It's not a question of being 'worse', you know. Among other things, it's about respecting the life of someone who is making it clear that they don't want to be killed, who are trying to escape, and who have been created in a way that makes it possible for them to run a way. It's also about respect for the feelings of someone who have been created in a way that they can express these feelings - and their babies. Have you seen how most birds do whatever they can to protect their eggs when humans approach their nests?


So the only way really not to hurt anyone is to stop eating at all :( No. That would hurt you, right? That kind of 'logic' would mean an annihilation of the the human race. Hurting? A lot of it.


So the question i guess is - how do you decide where to draw the line? You have already decided where to draw your line, so you probably know why you made your decision about eating plants and wanting to stop eating animals.... (but why postpone it? Just do it!) ;)


the reasoning behind it all was not exactly the violence. there's lots of it in nature and it's just one of the sides of the coin.

I can't see how violence performed by someone else would legitimate violence performed by myself. Why would we copy animals that are violent, and not those who don't kill other animals? Why copy anyone at all?


animals can too hurt and kill each other
You don't need to look at non-human animals: humans can hurt and kill each other too. To conclude that 'it's right to do it' or that 'I will do it' because somebody else is doing it, or simply because you are able to do it, just doesn't make sense. 'Killing is OK because someone else is killing'? No!



i got no physical/direct contribution as to what's on my plate (ok, i earned the money to buy the food but that's sooo indirect). indirect... the very reason animals are killed is that people use their earned money to kill what's on your plate. Without these contributors, there wouldn't be meat in the shops. In our society, the most active and direct way you can contribute to killing and harming animals is to buy meat and to argue that it's not worse to kill the baby of an animal than the 'baby' of an apple tree - an apple. You do both. The fact that you pay your grocery store instead of the slaughterhouse, is just a practical arrangement. Paying someone to kill = killing.


so i'd rather keep to myself from now on - just like always before. I think some meat eaters believe that vegans actually feel like eating meat, but somewhat manage not to. The fact is that after some time away from meat, fish, chicken etc, it becomes very clear how gross it is to do it, allow it in your house, or even consider it a natural thing to do. I don't know what you consider gross... maybe... eating a dog? If you would invite a friend to your house for a few days, and he brought some dog meat to fry in your kitchen, you'd probably feel the same way about it as many vegans feel about eating ie. lamb or chicken.

So we have decided (well, I have) to create a forum for people who already are vegans, for example to avoid interruptions in the subforums and various threads by people who want to bring in the 'what's wrong with eating fish/chicken/eggs/meat/milk'-perspective. We've just heard that so many times already.

That's why we have that special 'Not A Vegan Yet'-subforum for people who are not vegans yet, but who have decided that they are heading that direction. When you registered, you let us know that you wanted to post in that forum, but you entered the main forum and started a discussion from a non-vegan perspective. When you kind of indicate that you want to leave because you're views somewhat are not respected here, please remember that's it's the other way round. We just ask people to respect that this site is meant for people who are positive to veganism...

The best thing for people who are interested and have question, isn't even to post in the Not A Vegan Yet-forum, but to use the search function or just look around. Most topics, like 'Do plants have feelings', eggs, fish/pain, roadkill etc. have been covered thoroughly already!

Re. animals: Killing and violence doesn't seem to bother you as long as it happens outside factory farms (?) or at least be a reason for you not to kill/eat fish and chicken, and basically, you argue like meat eater.

I'd be very interested to know why you consider going vegan, because your 'there is murder and violence in nature, so why can't I be violent and kill too' doesn't go along with vegan thinking - at all. If you look really close at that logic, it's pretty similar to thinking that you can go kill someone because a thunderstorm took a tree in your garden, based on a twisted 'harm and destruction is part of nature'-thinking. Take s step out of your brain, and think again! ;)

Please don't 'keep to yourself', but please see if you have a good reason to postpone changing your habits (white meat/fish).

I hope and think you understand why we want your kind of perspectives in the Not A Vegan Yet-area only.

[Lilith]

Hey streetcat don't be offended, we're just making some essential points which is important as there are so many misconceptions about veganism these days that causes people to be disrespectful to us.
You asked a question and you got answers which I hope aid you're transition to veganism...no-one is trying 'kick you off' we're just trying to make you understand what veganism and this forum is about.

Anyway..I have some other little points for you..
Quote street cat: "animals can too hurt and kill each other"

When animals kill, they do it purely for survival unlike humans. Humans do not need meat to survive and it has been proven. AND they have the ability to choose between right/wrong and whether to kill or not kill.
Therefore don't you think with that kind of power we ahould choose to protect animals rather than murder them?

"Quote:how are things different with the plants?"
Do a search on the biology of plants and animals...you will find that they are both physiologically very different. A plant doesn't have a heart that beats or a brain to feel fear/pain the same way animals do.

Lilith x

[sugarmouse]

When animals kill, they do it purely for survival unlike humans. Humans do not need meat to survive and it has been proven. AND they have the ability to choose between right/wrong and whether to kill or not kill.
Therefore don't you think with that kind of power we ahould choose to protect animals rather than murder them?


i couldnt have put it better ;) we abuse our power, other animals dont!and if they did (could)wed be in trouble i reckon!lol

[harpy]

I don't see much evidence that plants feel pain, and so while the plant may not "want" to be eaten I don't have the same concerns about eating them as I would about killing an animal.

Of course a plant probably does "want" some parts of it to be eaten, such as fruit, because this is how the plants reproduce - by relying on animals to eat the fruit and excrete the seeds somewhere where they can grow. I believe some fruitarians are concerned about the "wants" of the plant and so will only eat these parts of the plant, not the leaves, roots and so on. A fruitarian diet seems quite challenging in terms of nutritional adequacy though.

[Morna]

As for the "animals kill each other too." That's true, but natural carnivores don't enslave and torture other animals for years before eating them, and they don't upset the natural balance. Also, many philosophies and religious systems regard humans are moral creatures who are called to live by a higher standard than the "law of the jungle."

[Hemlock]

I haven't found a way of eating minerals yet and surviving:) So plants will have to do!

[Span]

I think some were unfair to streetcat, yes he/she posted in the wrong forum, and perhaps the question was naive, but it did not warrant 'frostyness' by some.

That was a potential vegan who may have reverted now:(

Its not a totally crazy notion to question the ethics of eating some plants........ ask a Jain or a fruitarian, I think they may be as confussed with us as much as some on this thread have been with streetcat.

[crisinic]

How can you even compare an animal (by the thousands) being forced into a holocaust-like procession to a gas chamber that takes them 20 min to DIE, or a deformed pig being clubbed and stomped to death after a whole life of defending itself from cannibalism, to a frigan PLANT that grows in the SUNLIGHT and is receiving its nutrients from the soil and water. You CUT it and it grows BACK so you can keep EATING IT! you can't do that with a pig, fox, whale, dolphin, tiger, cow, chicken, etc. animals can go extinct...a seed can transform into something that makes you feel GOOD. When has an organic broccoli ever given someone diabetes, heart disease, etc.

[VeganLovinLaura]

I agree with crisinic; seriously, anyone who would use that argument is saying they have the same or similar regard for a brussels sprout and a cow, pig, etc.? Why would someone like that be "going vegan"? But of course they themselves are not to be treated as plants. That plants=animals and animals-kill-each-other-too are standard ploys taught by certain meat industry organizations to discredit veganism, but anyone with any intelligence can see through them and realize that the speaker or writer is very possibly an ANTI-vegan activist trying to be a "spy" in here.:satisfied: