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Mahk
Sep 9th, 2008, 04:10 AM
Disagree with you on which point?..
That there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi, etc. I think there isn't one, you seem to imply there is.

They addressed honey, sure, but they never addressed any of my other examples. We therefor must wing them (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wing%20it). [Link provided just in case you don't know this slang term. I have no idea if it is even used outside of the US for example.]

Korn
Sep 9th, 2008, 12:26 PM
That there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi, etc. I think there isn't one, you seem to imply there is.

As I said: I don't think we will get any further.

I haven't even posted something remotely close to saying that " there is a singular, all encompassing definition of veganism which clearly defines leather seat usage in a taxi".

The definition of vegan says 'as far as practical and possible'.

What 'as far as practical and possible' implies will vary from person to person, but a large number of activities including use of animal products doesn't leave room for interpretation. According to plain common sense, if you eat meat because you're short in time, and the only food available in a distance within 30 seconds was MacDonalds, that meal obviously isn't 'vegan'.

It would be more or less impossible to move around in a non-vegan world and at the same time avoid animal products or stuff that has been produced using animal products. No founder of the vegan movement have suggested that one should live in a cave in order to avoid potential contact with animal products bought by others. Such a twisted interpretation of veganism would only serve to keep people away from being interested in becoming vegans.

It's also possible to avoid lots of animal products not defined as food. Therefore 'veganism isn't about food only' isn't even up for discussion.

In short: even if there's room for individual evaluation of what 'as far as practical and possible', this doesn't mean that use all non-dietary products suddenly are up for discussion. The logical consequence of this is that veganism can't be about diet only.

And - talking about logic... How likely is it that Donald Watson, who stated that "Veganism begins with vegetarianism and then carries it to its most logical conclusion", and who made an effort not to harm earthworms when he was digging in his garden would found a movement that ignored everything but food products, or accept that someone tried to make 'vegan' into a dietary thing only?

Jo Stepaniak is an highly respected author of many books about veganism, incuding The Vegan Sourcebook, which contains a number of details that I haven't seen elsewhere, like eg. info on what kind of weather it was that Sunday in 1944 when 6-7 people met at the Attic Club in Holborn, London, to discuss the formation of a new society.

Here's an excerpt of her response to a question about 'different type of vegans': http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qatypes.htm

(My emphasis)



Q: Can you tell me all the kinds of vegans there are?

A: Hmm, let's see.... There are big, small, old, young, tall, short, gay, straight, thin, fat, single, married, wealthy, poor, Asian, Black, Hispanic, White, brown, "green," Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Muslim, agnostic, atheist, democrat, republican, socialist, capitalist, leftist, rightist, liberal, conservative.... Well, you get the picture. There is no one kind of vegan.

The term "vegan" was created in 1944 by a small group of people in England who broke away from the Leicester Vegetarian Society to establish the world's first Vegan Society. Donald Watson coined the actual term by combining the first and last parts of the word "vegetarian" because, as Watson stated, "veganism begins with vegetarianism and carries it through to its logical conclusion." The group championed a totally plant-based diet excluding flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animals' milk, butter, and cheese. In addition, they opposed the use of animal-based commodities and encouraged the manufacture and use of alternatives. Their mission statement asserted that the elimination of exploitation of any kind is necessary in order to bring about a more reasonable and humane society and emancipate both humans and animals. In 1960, the American Vegan Society was founded in the United States by Jay Dinshah. It fully supported (and continues to support) the precepts of the British Vegan Society, advocating a totally plant based diet and lifestyle free of animal products.

[---]

Contrary to vegetarianism, veganism was founded on deeply held ethical convictions that espouse a dynamic respect for all life. This philosophy unifies vegans everywhere, regardless of superficial differences. Hence, a vegan from one part of the world can relate to and empathize with a vegan from another part of the world despite their disparate culture and language.

There are no such entities as "part-time vegans," "partial vegans," or "dietary vegans." People who merely consume no animal products, including no eggs, animals' milk, or honey are not vegans; they are "total vegetarians." Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word "vegan" does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals wish to employ it. Unlike vegetarianism, being vegan does not entail simply what a person does or doesn't eat -- it comprises who a person is.


In her above mentioned book, she quotes Donald Watson from 1944, where he writes that The Vegan Society 'seeks to abolish man's dependence of animals' and that "Whilst honouring the efforts of all who are striving to achieve the emancipation of man and animals, The Vegan Society suggests that results must be limited so long as the exploitation in food and clothing production is ignored". This last sentence alone, from November 1944 text, documents that veganism wasn't focusing on diet only - unless, of course, you eat clothes...


Here's Stepaniak comment about this early 'manifesto':

"This manifesto was especially significant because it called for the abolition of not only all foods of animal origin but of all animal-based commodities as well. Furthermore, it emphasized the moral, spiritual, social, health, and economic advantages of living by humane principles."


Donald Watson passed away, at 95, only 2-3 years ago. He was of course aware that The Vegan Society have had all those statements about veganism being about more than diet, and AFAIK, he never complained.

Korn
Sep 9th, 2008, 12:57 PM
For the record, when Donald Watson was asked at 93 if he had any message to the millions of people that are now vegan, he answered "Take the broad view of what veganism stands for something beyond finding a new alternative to scrambled eggs on toast or a new recipe for Christmas cake."

He became a vegetarian at 14 after having seen "animals being pushed through doors alongside butchers' shops to be killed". He also once saw a cow and a calf enter together, and "wondered later which one the butcher killed first". Once, he even watched "a cow being killed at an abattoir in a field where local children were free to watch and where they hoped to be given a bladder to use as a football". He also watched a pig being killed when he visited an uncle's farm.

He became a vegan 18 years later when he learned about the biological mechanics of milk production.

Mahk
Sep 10th, 2008, 03:01 AM
As I said: I don't think we will get any further.
I'm pretty much done. I obtained closure from harpy's admission:
I do know roughly what you're driving at and think your position is tenable as regards the way the phrase "dietary vegan" should be interpreted.
Those of you who think we should change our words for ignorant people who don't truly know that a vegan, by definition, excludes animal products in more than just their diet, I disagree with, and think you are all being paranoid.

Analogy: "Mahk, you shouldn't say 'you give Christmas gifts' but rather 'you give gifts on December 25th', otherwise people might mistake you for a Christian, instead of an atheist that you are." Nope, not buying that one either.


Jo Stepaniak is an highly respected author of many books about veganism, incuding The Vegan Sourcebook, which contains a number of details that I haven't seen elsewhere, like eg. info on what kind of weather it was that Sunday in 1944 when 6-7 people met at the Attic Club in Holborn, London, to discuss the formation of a new society.

Pfft, "clear, sunny day, blue skies, November 1st." Everyone knows that.:cool:

Korn, why the "veganism is more than just diet" lecture? Did I ever say otherwise? NO. If you don't want to allow people to even discuss it, fine, I have no interest personally. But then explain to me why you have a "honey thread", shouldn't you censor that thread too for the exact same reason: "it's not up for discussion"? What if honey/leather sympathizer/agitators sneak in and infiltrate our ranks? Pretty soon we'll all get brain washed and start running back to McDonald's! :eek: :p

cobweb
Sep 10th, 2008, 08:10 AM
Mahk i think you've got this the wrong way round - i don't think we should change our words for ignorant people, therefore we should use the term vegan to mean what it was always meant to mean from it's conception, and not allow ignorant people to bastardise it.

Korn
Sep 11th, 2008, 06:34 AM
Korn, why the "veganism is more than just diet" lecture?
Explained already....



But then explain to me why you have a "honey thread", shouldn't you censor that thread too for the exact same reason: "it's not up for discussion"?
It's not up for discussion, but questions about why vegans are against honey are answered in the section called "No animal products - why?" - which again is inside the subforum for people who aren't vegan yet or are in the process of going vegan.

fruitfly
Nov 2nd, 2008, 06:26 AM
I wanted to ask this in the other topic on the subject but could not. I don't really want to discuss the issue, I just want to know, 'Who invented the term "dietary vegan" and when?'.

Think of it like an encyclopedia definition ... what is the earliest record of it that we have?

Thanks. I am thinking about writing an article on the subject.

pavotrouge
Nov 2nd, 2008, 05:29 PM
it's probably something that's just happened, which is the way language works. Someone started to used the term, spread it and other adapted it.

(IMHO it's not a valid experession, anyway.)

fruitfly
Nov 3rd, 2008, 12:54 AM
I appreciate that. It had to be 'someone'. Words don't make themselves. But like for a dictionary, I am trying to find the earliest recorded usage.

By whom, when, about who else?

Also, what proportion of vegans are said to be dietary vegans? How many are there?

harpy
Nov 3rd, 2008, 01:03 AM
Also, what proportion of vegans are said to be dietary vegans?

0% :D i.e. some of us say "dietary vegans" aren't vegans at all.

fruitfly
Nov 3rd, 2008, 01:32 AM
But how many are there?

horselesspaul
Nov 3rd, 2008, 01:48 AM
So few it doesn't bear using as data, I'll be bound.
You eat vegan food but wear animals and use animal products? Sounds like a diet that will not be adhered to particularly strongly.
In nearly twenty years as a vegan, I've never come across someone who ate a vegan diet but was not a vegan.

TripWire
Nov 3rd, 2008, 01:58 AM
Anyone have a solution for leather in cars?

horselesspaul
Nov 3rd, 2008, 02:20 AM
Don't buy a car with leather seats?
Sorry to sound glib but it's apt.

Mahk
Nov 3rd, 2008, 05:18 AM
I wanted to ask this in the other topic on the subject but could not. I don't really want to discuss the issue, I just want to know, 'Who invented the term "dietary vegan" and when?'

You might want to contact the Vegan Society (http://www.vegansociety.com/contact/) for your answer. I seem to recall one of their founders, Donald Watson, had some connection to the formation of the word "vegan" (c. 1944) and they actively use the term "dietary vegan" (http://www.vegansociety.com/people/lifestyle/celebrities.php) on their current website.

Ruby Rose
Nov 3rd, 2008, 07:40 AM
^ What he said.

Also, I don't think it would be possible to get a number of dietary vegans, as these are likely to be people following a restricted diet for health reasons or to lose weight - so are (a) not going to be registered anywhere and (b) not likely to be doing it permanently.

VeganLu
Apr 5th, 2010, 03:38 AM
I think that people who eat a totally plant-based diet but are not vegans should call themselves "strict vegetarians". The word "vegan" should not be associated with them. It could easily give out the wrong message about veganism.

As far as ordering food in a restaurant, they should tell the waiter or waitress that they are strict vegetarians, and if they need to clarify it further, say they want their meal to contain no meat, dairy or eggs.

patientia
Apr 5th, 2010, 11:00 AM
I agree with you, I already call them strict vegetarians.

Here most waiters don't know what a vegan is, so I have to use vegan, strict vegetarian, say what must be excluded, and after that I'm sometimes asked "Do you eat fish?" :rolleyes:

VeganLu
Apr 5th, 2010, 08:07 PM
To Patientia:

What a coincidence that you call them "strict vegetarians" too. Well, today I was reading Being Vegan by Joannne Stepaniak while waiting to see my doctor, and right there on page 5 she answers the question for all of us. You and I were close, but no cigar! :lol: As written by JS: "People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians. Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals or groups wish to employ it". Hallelujah!

How I hate when someone asks me if I eat fish after I tell them that I don't eat meat. So I immediately say again "I don't eat meat"; and then they say "But you eat chicken right?", and then for a third time I say "I don't eat meat." It finally registers with the person, but I have to laugh to myself. Better to life than to get angry, right?

By the way, another coincidence happened today. I met a woman who never heard of "vegan" , just like the waiters where you live. I explained what vegan was, and she was very nice and smiled, and said that it was good that I was a vegan. Some non-vegans and meat eating people are so nice to talk to about veganism. The woman made me feel good for the rest of the day. I kept on thinking of how she said it was good that I was a vegan, even though she was not. :heart:

Risker
Apr 5th, 2010, 08:25 PM
^ Strict vegetarian is far more common than total vegetarian. I've seen the term strict vegetarian used regularly but that's the first time I've ever heard total vegetarian.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22strict+vegetarian%22&word2=%22total+vegetarian%22

patientia
Apr 5th, 2010, 09:01 PM
To Patientia:

What a coincidence that you call them "strict vegetarians" too. Well, today I was reading Being Vegan by Joannne Stepaniak while waiting to see my doctor, and right there on page 5 she answers the question for all of us. You and I were close, but no cigar! :lol: As written by JS: "People who just have a plant-based diet are not vegans; they are total vegetarians. Until one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word vegan does not apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals or groups wish to employ it". Hallelujah!

How I hate when someone asks me if I eat fish after I tell them that I don't eat meat. So I immediately say again "I don't eat meat"; and then they say "But you eat chicken right?", and then for a third time I say "I don't eat meat." It finally registers with the person, but I have to laugh to myself. Better to life than to get angry, right?

By the way, another coincidence happened today. I met a woman who never heard of "vegan" , just like the waiters where you live. I explained what vegan was, and she was very nice and smiled, and said that it was good that I was a vegan. Some non-vegans and meat eating people are so nice to talk to about veganism. The woman made me feel good for the rest of the day. I kept on thinking of how she said it was good that I was a vegan, even though she was not. :heart:

I usually explain that fish is meat by definition, it's skeletal muscle tissue (and there are some other definitions that include internal organs, too). I think the problem is that macrobiotics is more common here, and people who follow macrobiotic diet often eat fish, but no milk or eggs.

There are two terms I use in Croatian, one is "strict vegetarian", which I use for people, the other is "completely vegetarian", which I use for food when speaking to waiters that have never heard of veganism.

VeganLu
Apr 6th, 2010, 12:09 AM
Risker: Well, the majority wins! The website you posted is adorable. "Strict vegetarian" works for me. It was my first choice until I read JS's book (for the 100th time) this morning. As long as strict vegetarians do not refer to themselves as "dietary vegans", then all is okay.

Like RubyDuby posted in another thread last week - "There is only one kind of vegan".

Patientia: Got you! You make very much sense in your using the 2 different terms "strict vegetarian" and "completely vegeterian" when using them for different circumstances. It must be very different in Croatia and the challenges you face as a vegan must be plentiful. I wish you much luck in your compassionate life.

patientia
Apr 6th, 2010, 09:20 AM
Thanks, VeganLu :)

VeganLu
Apr 6th, 2010, 04:02 PM
Hi Risker:

Even though you never heard of "total vegetarian", and me and Patientia lost the "fist fight", try getting a hold of the book "Being Vegan" written by Joanne Stepaniak, who has written many books and cookbooks pertaining to veganism. She has another great book called "The Vegan Sourcebook". I think you will enjoy reading both of these books. :)

Risker
Apr 6th, 2010, 06:55 PM
^ Huh? You both used the term strict vegetarian yourselves. I realise that Joannne Stepaniak uses the term "Total Vegetarian" since your mention of it, I'm suggesting that she's in a small minority that does, she may have even coined the term.