Vegans with low B12 level but no symptoms.

[lars2raw]

Hi all you good vegans:-)

I am a raw vegan. I have been eating raw for 3 years. The last 1½ year I have been eating 811 (Dr. Grahams raw style 80% calories from carbs, 10% protein and 10% fat) Its about eating alot of fruit every day and alot of greens but no hot spices, no salt, clever food combining, low fat, a few seeds and nuts. No grains. This feels great. I love to eat 20 bananas for lunch;-) And I have discovered alots of exotic fruits I didn't know existed before. Totaly yummi fruits like durian.
Maybe some of you have experienced what I have experienced.
I went to the doctor and had my B12 testet. The result was too low (it was 45 picomol/liter) but I have no symptoms of B12 defience at all. I feel so alive and healthy.
Any one tried the same? What did you do? What did your mother said?

Ofcourse I must say I have made a B12 friendly programe to ensure my future.
Its something like this:
1.I will stop drinking tap water
2. Eat a little dirt every day.
3.Don't use tooth paste anymore
4. Eat more organic
5. visualising better B12 levels.
And IF any symptoms shows up I will start eating some supplements.

Love and health

Lars

[Tigerlily]

I believe (although I am no expert) that once you start showing signs of deficiency, then it's very serious and even 'too late'.

Why not take supplements now?

There isn't any B12 found naturally in vegan foods, supplementation is necessary.

[lars2raw]

I believe (although I am no expert) that once you start showing signs of deficiency, then it's very serious and even 'too late'.

The symptoms comes slowly and I will know them as they begins.
Supplementing is like using crutches. It is good when you can't walk, but if you walk perfectly then why should one use them??? ;)

I won't use crutches when I walk perfectly!:)


Why not take supplements now?

I feel good and strong and healthy so why should I change anything. Supplements are artificial. Back in my cooked vegan days I tryed some B12 supplements. I didn't like the taste of it. I forgot to take it, and never ate it up.


There isn't any B12 found naturally in vegan foods, supplementation is necessary.
Are you sure about this? Read other places in this forum. Here (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22)

But maybe vegans don't need so much B12 as omnievores? I think this is true.

I do what I feel is the right thing to do. Maybe you'll do something different.

Peace, love and health
Lars

[DianeVegan]

If you search the forum there have been some very informative threads about B12. :)

[Seaside]

I believe (although I am no expert) that once you start showing signs of deficiency, then it's very serious and even 'too late'.

Why not take supplements now?

There isn't any B12 found naturally in vegan foods, supplementation is necessary.
Actually, there is in tempeh, although you musn't eat tempeh raw. Miso, though not raw, is alive, as long as you don't overheat it, and it has B12, as does kombucha tea, which is a fermented tea, and may be considered raw. Most fermented foods, if you learn to ferment them yourself, may conatin B12 producing bacteria.

[moochbabe]

the problem with these sources is that they r not "reliable" in other words, they're B12 analogs that the body cannot absorb, it is even speculated that they inhibit the absorbtion of active B12

[Seaside]

I think some of that depends on how badly your system is damaged and how old you are.

[moochbabe]

ur quite possibly correct. it is not well known about B12 or its absorbtion...

[Korn]

Of course I must say I have made a B12 friendly programe to ensure my future.
Its something like this:
1.I will stop drinking tap water
2. Eat a little dirt every day.
3.Don't use tooth paste anymore
4. Eat more organic
5. visualising better B12 levels.
And IF any symptoms shows up I will start eating some supplements.

Hi Lars, a few comments:

1) Water: If you replace drinking water with bottled water, you may not get all the chlorine, but plastic bottles contain stuff that may reduce B12 as well. PLus, they are transparent, and B12 is killed by light (read: by 'age, meaning un-fresh water/unfresh food contains less natural B12, if any, than fresh stuff do).
2) Dirt: It has often been said that animals who don't eat meat or dairy get enough B12 because the also consume some dirt while they are eating grass etc. This is IMO both true and untrue: While I'm sure there is some B12 in 'dirt', these animals live a life so different from ours, and most of these differences in life style relates to B12 availability/consumption:
Animals don't drink tea or coffee. They don't use sugar. No amalgam in their teeth. Wild animals have not taken any vaccines. No cooked food. Only fresh food, organic. No microwaved food. No toothpaste with fluoride. They are less exposed to EMF. They don't spend time in roads with heavy traffic on their way to the office. They don't use computers. They pretty much avoid everything that is known to reduce B12. I don't think there's any proof that just adding some 'dirt', whatever that is, to your diet will help much.
3) AFAIK, toothpaste in itself has no negative effects on B12. Fluor has.
4) Organic is good, but may or may not be enough to raise the B12 levels of a B12 deficient person. If you don't eat the food fresh, but buy it when it's several days old, B12 levels drop. Lots of plants contain no B12 even if it's organically grown. We also need more info on the relationship between B12 analogues and active, true B12 in organic food. Plus, if the organic plants has been exposed to chlorinated water, B12 is already reduced/killed in those plants. I'm all for a natural lifestyle and organic food, but in our society, today, we don't know if we'll get enough B12 even if we change our personal lifestyle.

There is a lot of erratic information and pseudo-facts presented by people who promote use of supplements, and their 'facts' are often out of touch with reality. I think we'll do a big mistake if we just replace their assumptions with other assumption. An assumption is an assumption... :)

That's why I think all meat eaters, lacto-vegetarians and vegans should test themselves for B12, MMA and homocysteine. We know that there is a high percentage in all these groups that are low in B12 - even among meat eaters, who consume a lot more B12 when vegans, since they eat the B12 reserves in the blood, muscles and liver (etc) of dead animals. Getting enough B12 simply isn't enough!

If you spend some time searching for B12 info, you'll also see that several people claim that B12 deficiency can cause permanent damage to your body before any symptoms pop up. If this is true, waiting for symptoms isn't really a good idea...

[Korn]

the problem with these sources is that they r not "reliable" in other words, they're B12 analogs that the body cannot absorb, it is even speculated that they inhibit the absorbtion of active B12

Meat is said to be a reliable B12 source, but I've seen at least three studies showing that circa 40% of all meat eaters are low in B12.

We actually know far too little about the effect of B12 analogues. People with B12 deficiency has been treated with a mix containing 95% B12 analogs and 5% active B12, and B12 analogues are is found everywhere. Some people say that B12 analogues will disturb the absorption of true B12, others that the digestive system of a healthy person can distinguish between the two (which is supported by the 95%/5% example I mentioned above).

IMHO the most important questions we need to ask ourselves are
1) Do I actually consume enough true, active B12?
2) Do I live in a way that may reduce/kill the B12 I consume?
3) Am I healthy right now?
4) What are my B12/MMA/homocysteine levels (this is important if you want to know if you are healthy tomorrow as well)?
5) If I'm B12 deficient or have had a history of B12 deficiency, have I done what I need to get the levels back to normal again (special treatment may be needed)?

People who have studied B12 for years all seem to agree that we know too little about the whole B12/homocysteine-issue.

I agree with Lars that taking supplements is 'artificial'. It's also 'artificial' to become ill or die prematurely because we live in a world full of 'artificial' stuff that may destroy our bodies if we don't deal with the artificialness we are exposed to.

Most B12 info lack nuances.

On one side there are people who describe vegan food as some sort of disease, and that adding animal products is the solution. These people ignore the fact that millions of people who eat loads of B12 are B12 deficient.

On the other side there are people who blame todays un-natural lifestyle for the global B12 problems, and suggest that a natural lifestyle is the solution. These people often ignore the fact that even people who go for lifestyle as natural as possible also are exposed B12 reducing elements without even thinking of it.

[eve]

Korn, you refer to water perhaps reducing B12 - do you know how this relates to vegetables that are hydroponically produced? I'd appreciate any comments from anyone who has looked into this method of growing.

[DianeVegan]

Thanks for posting, Korn!

[moochbabe]

i know, i must saay it's always very enlightening when Korn posts

[lars2raw]

Hi Korn,
thank you for your reply

Hi Lars, a few comments:

1) Water: If you replace drinking water with bottled water, you may not get all the chlorine, but plastic bottles contain stuff that may reduce B12 as well. PLus, they are transparent, and B12 is killed by light (read: by 'age, meaning un-fresh water/unfresh food contains less natural B12, if any, than fresh stuff do).

What stuff do plastic bottled water contain that will kill B12?
Do you know how much of the B12 in transparant bottles is killed by the light? I think its only some of it, but I don't know. I have read here and other places that heat will destroy B12 but not totally. I think its about 10-30%.



2) Dirt: It has often been said that animals who don't eat meat or dairy get enough B12 because the also consume some dirt while they are eating grass etc. This is IMO both true and untrue: While I'm sure there is some B12 in 'dirt', these animals live a life so different from ours, and most of these differences in life style relates to B12 availability/consumption:
Animals don't drink tea or coffee. They don't use sugar. No amalgam in their teeth. Wild animals have not taken any vaccines. No cooked food. Only fresh food, organic. No microwaved food. No toothpaste with fluoride. They are less exposed to EMF. They don't spend time in roads with heavy traffic on their way to the office. They don't use computers. They pretty much avoid everything that is known to reduce B12. I don't think there's any proof that just adding some 'dirt', whatever that is, to your diet will help much.

I don't drink tea or coffee, but I have done in many years of my life:(
I don't use any white sugar, I get healthy sugars from fresh and a little dried fruits. (But in the past I used sugar, but never used very much;)
No amalgams and never had;)
Maybe I had a vaccine as a child. I think so.:(
no cooked foods for 3 years:)
Very much organic food.
No microwaved food, only tasted it ones or twice.
For a long time I haven´t used toothpaste with flour. (more about toothpaste later)
Ok I living in a medium polluted city:Copenhagen, that is no good;)
I use the computer alot;)
So I am very much like an animal I think. Exept from the pollution and the computer:)
About dirt I would say I have chanced my mind a little. I think its very difficult to eat alot of dirt, but remember we don't need very much B12, so if I eat a little grass in the forest and don't wash my organic greens alot before eating them, maybe that will be enough?


3) AFAIK, toothpaste in itself has no negative effects on B12. Fluor has.
This is very much my own theory so maybe its totally wrong. I was thinking like this: If B12 is produced in the mouth (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222) then it would be very bad to destroy it right away by using toothpaste with antibacterial stuff like salt or other chemicals.


4) Organic is good, but may or may not be enough to raise the B12 levels of a B12 deficient person. If you don't eat the food fresh, but buy it when it's several days old, B12 levels drop. Lots of plants contain no B12 even if it's organically grown. We also need more info on the relationship between B12 analogues and active, true B12 in organic food. Plus, if the organic plants has been exposed to chlorinated water, B12 is already reduced/killed in those plants. I'm all for a natural lifestyle and organic food, but in our society, today, we don't know if we'll get enough B12 even if we change our personal lifestyle.


I agree:) But we don't know how much all these factors will destroy B12. Will it destroy 10% or 90%?





If you spend some time searching for B12 info, you'll also see that several people claim that B12 deficiency can cause permanent damage to your body before any symptoms pop up. If this is true, waiting for symptoms isn't really a good idea...


One can find alot of claimings on the internet, but do we hear the whole story?
Maybe those people were so poisened with all kind of unnatural garbage, so they didn't feel any symptoms. But I don't know any of these claimings. Maybe I could investigate this further if you send me some links?

I have only heard stoies about people who had the symptoms comming slowly over ½ to 1 year.

Peace and love
Lars

[Korn]

Hi Korn,
thank you for your reply

What stuff do plastic bottled water contain that will kill B12?

Hi, I'll see if I can find this for you - you may even find it in one of our B12-threads...


Do you know how much of the B12 in transparant bottles is killed by the light? I think its only some of it, but I don't know.
That's it - we don't know. ANd even if I said I would know, you could have found another site next week saying something else... .) So 'I don't know' is the most correct reference right now...!


I have read here and other places that heat will destroy B12 but not totally. I think its about 10-30%. I've seen different numbers here as well. General info re. heat and B12: Cooking is worse than freezing, but not as bad as using a microwave oven.



Except from the pollution and the computer:) And electricity in general, lach of exposure to airborne B12 (Copenhagen is not a forest!) and so on. Have you seen this (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196) thread? The truth is, we can't really guess our B12 levels are. Ever taken antibiotics? Do you know the level of B12 in your mothers breast milk? Exposed to parasites? How cobalt rich is the soil where the food you eat come from? What about intrinsic factor?



I think its very difficult to eat alot of dirt, but remember we don't need very much B12, so if I eat a little grass in the forest and don't wash my organic greens alot before eating them, maybe that will be enough?
Maybe, or maybe not. There may be easier and more comfortable ways to deal with the problem, if you have been really low in B12, you may need a real boost. How fresh are your organic greens? What kind of plants do you et organically? Do you know the relationship between active B12 and B12 analogues in them? Are you sure you like the taste of grass? :)


This is very much my own theory so maybe its totally wrong. I was thinking like this: If B12 is produced in the mouth (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222) then it would be very bad to destroy it right away by using toothpaste with antibacterial stuff like salt or other chemicals. Some B12 may be produced on the mouth, and some B12 may be recycled, especially if you are low in B12... but how much?



But we don't know how much all these factors will destroy B12. Will it destroy 10% or 90%? Excellent question...!

If you find more info on internet, please share it here. You'll find many links in other threads. But don't forget to make sure you get your own levels right!

[lars2raw]

If you spend some time searching for B12 info, you'll also see that several people claim that B12 deficiency can cause permanent damage to your body before any symptoms pop up. If this is true, waiting for symptoms isn't really a good idea...

Hi Korn I am still very courious about this. I don't believe these stories. It doesn't make sense to me. The body always tells you the truth. If there is no symptoms of B12 deficency, then don't worry. But ofcourse lets look at these stories and claimings and discuss them.



But don't forget to make sure you get your own levels right!


What is the right level for vegan people?
Maybe my level is perfectly right:-)

[eve]

re-use of water bottles - a quote here: Seattle, WA, USA--(Jobwerx)--APRIL 24, 2005--Polyethylene terephthalate (PET) single use bottles are perfectly safe.

However, the plastics in re-used water bottles breaks down over time. Bottles that are repeatedly used after rinsing, washing and heating, contain a contaminant that appears regularly in these single-use plastic beverage containers, known as DEHA (di-2-ethyl-hexyl-adipate). DHEA is a suspected human carcinogen, that if consumed in large concentrations has been linked to excessive weight loss, as well as, reproductive and liver problems. This repeated use causes the plastic to break down and the carcinogens can leach into the water that you are drinking. Better to purchase mutliple use containers for repeated use. http://www.jobwerx.com/news/Archives/plastics_biz-id=947149_538.html

[Korn]

Hi Korn I am still very courious about this. I don't believe these stories. It doesn't make sense to me. The body always tells you the truth. If there is no symptoms of B12 deficency, then don't worry. But ofcourse lets look at these stories and claimings and discuss them.

First of all - don't get me wrong, Lars, I think the questions you raise a re very important.... I have some comments:

To say that the body always tells the truth makes sense, but at the same time, hundreds of millions of humans develop cancer or other serious diseases without knowing why. I think a lot of these 'stories' are created by doctors and others who know very little about plant nutrition. They get a patient, he is sick, he eats no animal products - most people eat animal products, so they assume his disease is caused by lack of animal products. Their conclusions are often based on assumptions.

But does it make sense that we shall live a life so far from nature, and still develop no symptoms of disease? Most people never drink water directly from the source, never eat fresh plants, are exposed to pollution in the air (especially those who live in cities) and to electro-magnetic fields even while asleep.

The B12 molecule is the only vitamin the contains a mineral: cobalt. Cobalt is one of three naturally magnetic elements, Iron and nickle are the others. To me, it makes sense that it's behavior is different from the behavior of other vitamins. Electro-magnetic fields may disturb the cobalt atom in B12 more than we know, because B12 in it's core is magnetic.

Polyvinyl Chloride is used today for cold water piping (outside/underground) as well as for sewers, drains, wastes and venting pipes and fittings. Water is often exposed to PVC eve before it enters a plastic bottle. I haven't found the earlier mentioned link with the info about B12 reduction and plastic yet, bust just found this:


Ascorbic acid loss was studied with MVI-12 (Armour) admixed in parenteral nutrition solutions containing different amino acid products, with or without Intralipid 10%, and stored in either glass bottles or PVC bags, either refrigerated or at room temperature. Ascorbic acid was lost under all conditions at room temperature and not at refrigerated temperature. Losses were greater in PVC bags than glass bottles. ( http://www.healing-arts.org/mehl-madrona/mmintravenous.htm ) You say that 'it doesn't make sense to me'... I'm not sure what it is that doesn't make sense to you, but at least to me, it makes sense that nutrients found in nature is destroyed by un-natural processes.

B12 often exist on the surface of the plants that contain B12, and - as we know - in very small amounts. So if we wash these plant before we eat them, especially in chlorinated water, most if these small amounts of B12 may get lost - even if the plants were organically grown. Wild animals eat grass and leaves directly from the source, but most humans don't - which is why we wash them. Not washing them isn't always safe either...



What is the right level for vegan people?
I agree that this is a very good question - we have discussed this in the Do vegans need less B12 than others'-thread. (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555) It looks like vegans need less B12 than others, and also that vegans living a lifestyle as 'natural' as possible need less B12 than other vegans.


Maybe my level is perfectly right:-)
As you say - maybe. But if levels around ie. 50 picomol/liter means tingling in the fingers, as many people have reported, maybe this tingling is a sign that the levels are too low.

Real B12 deficiency is linked with serious problems, and has been both over-dramatized and under-dramatized. For example, there is a link between babies born with NTD (neural tube defect) and B12 (and folic acid) deficiency. As I mentioned, several studies show that 40% of all meat eaters are low in B12, but 'low in B12' doesn't necessarily mean deficient. Many studies say that circa 10% of all meat eaters are B12 deficient: they're not only 'low', they are deficient. But as we know, 10% of all meat eaters do not get babies born with NTD - I think the number is closer to 0.1-0.2%.

We know that some of the problems caused by low B12 can be treated (or will not appear) with diets rich in folate. This means that re. some of the B12-related problems, low B12 isn't a problem if you get enough folate. (A varied, healthy vegan diet is rich in folate). We still need B12, and NTDs has been mentioned as one of the important reasons (for vegan women) to watch their B12 levels.*

So... who are getting babies with NTD - the women with the lowest levels of B12? Or is it the women with a comnination of low B12 levels and other conditions (ie. low folic acid levels?)

Is a mild B12 deficiency actually not really a problem, and only severe B12 deficiency potentially really harmful? Is the definition of dangerous B12 deficiency set too high? In the case of NTD, there are many elements who influence the results. Women in Northern China, for example, give birth to 4-5 times as many children with NTD as women in Southern China. 'Southern' means more sun (=more vitamin D), and probably a diet consisting of more fresh plants throughout the year. In some countries, 'Northern' means less money too, which again often means less-than-idea medical conditions... there are so many elements involved.

Are we sure that a mother who lacks folic acid or B12 will notice this, the her body will tell her 'the truth', before she becomes pregnant? If this was the case, there wouldn't have been born thousands of babies with NTD (we know that adding folic acid to the diet of woman will reduce the number of babies born with NTD). Since there are thousands of babies born with NTD, we know that their bodies either 'didn't tell them the truth' - or they didn't listen.

Unfortunately, if a vegan mother gives birth to a baby with NTD, many doctors (and media) will blame it on her veganism, even if her folic acid and B12 levels were safe. I guess this is the reason that some vegans exaggerate the need for supplements: they don't want vegans to appear as examples of people who become seriously ill or gives birth to babies with birth defects. Unfortunately, this exaggerated enthusiasm for supplements sends out signals which are received as 'vegans don't trust their diet enough to not rely on supplements'. And I agree with you, Lars, a lot of the almost obsessive interest for B12 supplementation doesn't make sense. But it's also important not to forget how polluted an un-natural lives we live (keywords: water, air, electricity), and not make any important decisions based on how things should have been in a natural world, or on too mant maybe's...

Maybe healthy vegans living a natural life style can survive well on half the B12 levels an unhealthy meat eater needs, or less. Even the most vegan-unfriendly doctors of all times, Victor Herbert, said that absorbing 0.1-0.25 mcg B12/daily would be enough for most healthy people.... The reason the RDA is set so much higher, is both that we don't absorb all the B12 we consume, and also that so much of what we absorb is destroyed. (Plus, both multivitamins and fortified food contains B12 analogues). Personally I'm 99.99% convinced that healthy vegans in a 'natural world' would get enough from eating fresh, organic plants. (Lars, did you see the thread about How much B12 there is in a plant based diet (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217)?) Our world has never been less 'natural' than it is right now...

One day, maybe we'll find that the main cause for the general low B12 levels among vegans and others can be traced down to one or a few elements, for example lack of fresh food, or water chlorination. Or maybe we'll find out that it's the sum of all the B12-destroying elements that creates the problem. Until then, and with so many things that can destroy B12, we (non-vegans as well) need to look both at how much B12 we absorb and how much that is destroyed by the way we live - including the elements we can't do much about over night (like the levels of nitrous oxide in air in areas with car traffic).


*http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/96/4/289


There seems to be a moderate association between low maternal B12 status and the risk of fetal NTDs. However, several design limitations, and the inclusion of few study participants, may have under-represented this. A large observational study, using reliable and valid indicators of B12 status in early pregnancy, could best assess the association between B12 insufficiency and the risk of fetal NTDs.


Although maternal folate insufficiency is a risk factor for fetal neural tube defects (NTDs), there is controversy about whether vitamin B12 (B12) insufficiency is also associated with an increased risk of NTDs.

[DianeVegan]

re-use of water bottles - a quote here: Seattle, WA, USA--(Jobwerx)--APRIL 24, 2005--Polyethylene terephthalate (PET) single use bottles are perfectly safe.

However, the plastics in re-used water bottles breaks down over time. Bottles that are repeatedly used after rinsing, washing and heating, contain a contaminant that appears regularly in these single-use plastic beverage containers, known as DEHA (di-2-ethyl-hexyl-adipate). DHEA is a suspected human carcinogen, that if consumed in large concentrations has been linked to excessive weight loss, as well as, reproductive and liver problems. This repeated use causes the plastic to break down and the carcinogens can leach into the water that you are drinking. Better to purchase mutliple use containers for repeated use. http://www.jobwerx.com/news/Archives/plastics_biz-id=947149_538.html
Thanks for that info, Eve. :)

[lars2raw]

To Korn.
thanks for all your knowledge on this topic.


[QUOTE]
As you say - maybe. But if levels around ie. 50 picomol/liter means tingling in the fingers, as many people have reported, maybe this tingling is a sign that the levels are too low.


I have no tingling in the fingers I can assure you. I am a pianist so I got sensitive fingers:) And I would feel if anything was wrong right away!

[Korn]

I'm sure you would feel tingling if it was there - the question is if irreversible damage already have happened to your nervous system when you notice tingling or other B12 deficincy symptoms.

It totally makes sense that symptoms come first, and a possibly irreversible damage comes afterwards. Maybe we should have a poll about this - there seem to be extremely few cases of vegans who suffer from irreversible damage of any kind due to lack of B12.