View Full Version : About milk and dairy products

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Feb 6th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Pretty weird stuff.

Feb 6th, 2006, 07:41 PM
I think it's not only hilarious but disgustingly gross - which is what it's meant to be I guess - to help people understand what exactly milk is!

Feb 6th, 2006, 09:01 PM
I don't think this helps. It just comes across as weird and smutty and disgusting but I don't think the link between milk used in coffee and on cereal comes from a cows 'breasts' is actually easy to see.

Feb 6th, 2006, 09:32 PM
:rolleyes: totally dumb. i can't help thinking more people will think it's sexy in a weird way, than it putting anybody off cows milk.

Feb 6th, 2006, 09:44 PM

Feb 6th, 2006, 09:48 PM
seriously... i know of some guys with breastmilk fetishes :eek:

Oct 17th, 2006, 12:33 AM
The following report was posted in the British Medical Journal and was passed onto me by a vegan doctor.

Please comment and pass this info on to interested parties.

BMJ 2006;333:763-764 (14 October), doi:10.1136/bmj.38996.499410.BE


Bone health in children

Guidelines for calcium intake should be revised.

Conventional wisdom, public policy on nutrition in many westernised countries, and advertisements for dairy products link increased consumption of calcium to better bone health and prevention of osteoporosis in later life.
However, a meta-analysis by Winzenberg and colleagues in this week's BMJ shows that calcium supplementation in children is unlikely to result in a clinically relevant decrease in the risk of fracture in childhood or in later life.1

Previous research has questioned whether increasing calcium intake through diet or supplements benefits children's or young adults' bones. Exercise significantly increased bone density and bone strength, but calcium intake between 500 and 1500 mg had no effect on the same outcomes in adolescent girls studied prospectively for 12 years as they passed into young adulthood.2 Of three qualitative reviews of literature published in this decade, two concluded that it is not known whether the modest increments in rate of bone gain after supplementation with calcium or dairy produce will translate into clinically meaningful reductions in the risk of osteoporosis later in life or even persist beyond the treatment period.3 4 The third concluded that increases in dairy or total dietary calcium intake did not reliably increase bone mineral density or reduce fracture rate in children or adolescents.5

None the less, the recommended intake of calcium in children remains high in the United Kingdom, the European Union, Australia, the United States, and Canada (350-800 mg/day for children and 800-1300 for adolescents).6 Consequently, policy guidelines and nutrition programmes promote the intake of two to four servings of dairy products daily. For example, the US government promotes the consumption of three or more servings of cow's milk or other dairy products daily, and it subsidises the distribution of dairy products through the national school lunch programme and the women's, infants', and children's nutrition programme. The justification has been to avert a so called "calcium crisis" (a mismatch between calcium intake and recommendations) thought to be responsible for high rates of osteoporosis later in life.

What if we—researchers, paediatricians, marketers, and policy experts—have been wrong? What if increasing calcium intake in youth has no significant impact on fracture risk in early or later life as Winzenberg and colleagues conclude? Populations that consume the most cow's milk and other dairy products have among the highest rates of osteoporosis and hip fracture in later life.6 7 Given this fact, it is important to ask whether sufficient evidence exists to continue assuming that consumption of these foods is part of the solution.

Furthermore, we need to ask the question of whether we are doing children a disservice by encouraging them to meet recommendations. Childhood obesity is on the rise in westernised countries, and dairy products—the main source of calcium recommended by nutrition guidelines—contribute greatly to the intake of fat and sugar in children.8 Nearly three quarters of the world's population are estimated to be lactose intolerant after the age of weaning and therefore do not tolerate the consumption of milk and other dairy products well. In addition, some studies suggest that the consumption of cow's milk increases the risk of some types of cancer.9 10

The meta-analysis by Winzenberg and colleagues strengthens previous evidence that calcium or dairy products do not have a clinically relevant impact on bone health in youth. The focus on calcium recommendations in nutrition policy and research draws attention away from more comprehensive research on how to promote long term bone health among young people. Public health would be better served by researching how other dietary and lifestyle factors affect children's bones. Promising areas include the effect of regular exercise, vitamin D status, increasing fruit and vegetable consumption, limiting salt intake, limiting or avoiding animal protein, and avoiding smoking.

It is time to revise our calcium recommendations for young people and change our assumptions about the role of calcium, milk, and other dairy products in the bone health of children and adolescents. While the policy experts work on revising recommendations, doctors and other health professionals should encourage children to spend time in active play or sports, and to consume a nutritious diet built from whole foods from plant sources to achieve and maintain a healthy weight and provide an environment conducive to building strong bones.

Amy Joy Lanou, assistant professor
Department of Health and Wellness, CPO 2730, University of North Carolina Asheville, Asheville, NC 28806, USA
(alanou@unca.edu )
Competing interests: None declared.
Research p 775
1. Winzenberg T, Shaw K, Fryer J, Jones G. Effects of calcium supplementation on bone density in healthy children: meta-analysis of randomised controlled trials. BMJ 2006 doi: 10.1136/bmj.38950.561400.5.[CrossRef]
2. Lloyd T, Beck TJ, Lin HM, Tulchinsky M, Eggli DF, Oreskovic TL, et al. Modifiable determinants of bone status in young women. Bone 2002;30: 416-21.[CrossRef][ISI][Medline]
3. Bachrach LK. Acquisition of optimal bone mass in childhood and adolescence. Trends Endocrinol 2001;12: 22-8.[CrossRef][ISI][Medline]
4. Wosje KS, Specker BL. Role of calcium in bone health during childhood. Nutr Rev 2000;58: 253-68.[ISI][Medline]
5. Lanou AJ, Berkow SE, Barnard ND. Calcium, dairy products and bone health in children and young adults: a re-evaluation of the evidence. Pediatrics 2005;115: 736-43.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
6. Report of a Joint Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations/World Food Organization of the United Nations Expert Consultation. Human vitamin and mineral requirements. Bangkok, Thailand; September 1998. ftp://ftp.fao.org/es/esn/nutrition/Vitrni/vitrni.html (last accessed 6 Oct 2006).
7. Abelow BJ, Holford TR, Insogna KL. Cross-cultural association between dietary animal protein and hip fracture: a hypothesis. Calcif Tissue Int 1992;50: 14-8.[CrossRef][ISI][Medline]
8. Subar AF, Krebs-Smith SM, Cook A, Kahle LL. Dietary sources of nutrient among US children, 1989-1991. Pediatrics 1998;102: 913-23.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
9. Larsson SC, Bergkvist L, Wolk A. Milk and lactose intakes and ovarian cancer risk in the Swedish mammography cohort. Am J Clin Nutr 2004;80: 1353-7.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
10. Chan JM, Stampfer MJ, Ma J, Gann PH, Gaziano JM, Giovannucci E. Dairy products, calcium, and prostate cancer risk in the physicians' health study. Am J Clin Nutr 2001;74: 549-54.[Abstract/Free Full Text]

Oct 17th, 2006, 12:39 AM
That's great. I'm bookmarking it to read later. :)

Oct 19th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Great article thanks!

Oct 29th, 2006, 03:28 PM
I've heard that people who drink milk actually have an INCREASED risk of bone fractures as opposed to people who don't. I heard it on a vegan podcast - "Vegetarian food for thought."

Studies also say that people who live in places like Japan who consume less milk have decreased fractures when compared with American.

Here's a link:


Apr 7th, 2007, 07:01 PM
I've been a vegetarian for about two years now, and I haven't been drinking milk since around november, and i was a vegan for a month or so this year, i caved one day over a cake and haven't been back to it since, but i plan on returning as of today. as for alternative milks, this is a very typical thing to ask, but what is the best unsweetened, calcium-fortified soy/rice/almond etc. based milk that i can consume, i remember having one that i absolutely loved, but i can't remember what it was. the only thing i cannot stand is pure soybeans and water, it's too bean-y for plain drinking, excellent for cooking but i am looking for something to drink plain. any advice would be utterly fantastic and appreciated.

Apr 7th, 2007, 10:47 PM
Rice milk is nice to drink plain.
Personally I really like apro soya light :) It seems to be less 'beany' than the others :)
OoO Oat milk is nice too :)

Apr 8th, 2007, 07:37 AM
I don't think we can get the alpro stuff in north america, but I've heard great things about it.

I really like So Nice and Vitasoy. Most people say that the long-life soymilks that you get on the shelf (instead of the refrigerated section) aren't as good as the refrigerated stuff, but I really like Vitasoy. I can drink the "creamy original" straight up, though it is sweetened. They make an unsweetened version that I put on my cereal though. And So Nice makes good unsweetened soymilk too.

Welcome to the forum Herbivore, and good luck on your soymilk hunt :) See you around the forum!

Apr 10th, 2007, 01:11 PM
Rice and oat milk aren't as strong tasting, and rice milk has a naturally sweetish flavour.

Almond milk is nice providing you like the taste of almonds.

All v.yummy :)

Apr 11th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Hazelnut milk is decent but expensive. I like oat milk best of all and the price is right. However, I've been a porridge-eater all my life, so that might be why.

Apr 11th, 2007, 09:42 PM
I like alpro soya light too Melanie :) It's my favourite 'fresh' soya milk. Mr F will only drink 'so good'.

You caved over cake? Goodness me. If you get tempted again, just wait til you get home then make a BETTER and BIGGER cake and you can have it ALL FOR YOU!!!! :D Much better than a measly little slice of eggy cake.

Miss Strawberry
Aug 25th, 2009, 08:34 PM
I am new here, and also soon a vegan, I hope:) I have been a vegetarian for a pretty long time now, and I like it. But now I would really like to be vegan. The problem is, I really love all kinds of dairy products:undecided: The reason I became vegetarian, and kept that diet, was and is because I dont like the way the animals are treated. So my quwstion is, are there any good sites to read about how the cows who produce the milk arfe treated? Are they treated the same awful way as the animals who are slaughtered? If they are, I would defenetly not eat any dairy products! Or maybe someone could tell me a little about it? How are those cows treated?

Aug 25th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Hi and welcome to the forum!

Just a little question (I know you are not a cow, but still... :-) )
Would you accept spending your life being a 'milk machine' for other humans under any circumstances (ending up being slaughtered when you are nor productive enough)?

You mention avoiding meat and how animals are treated, but vegans don't avoid meat and dairy because the animals are treated badly, but because we don't look at animals as someone we can use or abuse if we only treat them well.

If treating an animal well would be a valid criterion for killing and eating them, we could all eat 'pets', but of course we don't do that...

Aug 25th, 2009, 09:19 PM
There are quite a few threads on this site (I think you should be able to read them even with membership pending approval?) that explain about the downside of the dairy industry - and how it supports the continued veal industry, plus slaughter of cows long before their natural lifespans are over. There are lots of other downsides to the dairy industry too!

There are so many good vegan alternatives to dairy now, I don't think you'd feel like you were missing anything, apart from possibly cheese - and when you know it's wrong, it's so much easier to not eat it :)

I'm not sure what Swedish brands are available, but here we get vegan butter/margerine, vegan ice cream, soya milk, vegan "cheese" (which tastes good even though not exactly like dairy cheese), vegan whipped and squirty cream... all sorts of nice things. My meat-eating friends actually prefer Swedish Glace ice cream to dairy ice cream - it is delicious!

I hope you do become vegan - it would be great to have you as a full member on this site and you'd be doing so much for the animals and the environment (not to mention your own health too!) - well, unless you eat too much vegan ice cream of course!! :)

Aug 25th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Are they treated the same awful way as the animals who are slaughtered?

You can read about the treatment of dairy cows and their calves here:


Aug 26th, 2009, 05:32 PM
I would try the "Earthlings" video (it is available on the internet, in youtube or Google videos)...

It has a section on dairy and pretty much on everything else...

Comes with a warning though...

Aug 31st, 2009, 12:21 PM
HelloOOoo there! Glad you found the forum and took the time to ask this question :D

Your post reminds me so much of me about 4 years ago. I'd been Vegetarian for about 5 years and ate dairy because i assumed cows weren't being killed to supply me with cheese, milk etc. I had absolutely no reason to think otherwise until i joined Viva (www.viva.org.uk (http://www.viva.org.uk)) and read about how these dairy cows are actually used.

Looking back i feel pretty embarrassed for thinking dairy cows had happy, trouble-free lives but i don't beat myself up about it because the truth is i just never knew or bothered to find out. But once you know what's really going on i think it's best to do something about it and make simple changes to your lifestyle that will distance yourself from that stuff.

Combine finding out the cruelty of dairy farming with finding out about the alternatives to dairy (vegan ice cream, rice milk, vegan cream cheese, vegan milk chocolate etc etc) and that was it! I was a new vegan in the making!

I've been Vegan since then and waaaaaaaay prefer my diet now. I also cook and bake a lot more and try out new recipes all the time which is fun! You also probably won't miss cheese as much as you think you will. I can't stress that enough. :D

Sep 5th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Hi Miss Strawberry! Welcome to the Vegan Forum, you'll find plenty of info dotted around these threads :)

What's your main reason for going Vegan, is it the animal welfare side?

Peta.com (love 'em or hate 'em as people tend to) have a lot of information on dairy, and probably some videos too.

In terms of favourite foods, I think we were all pleasantly surprised how quickly we discovered new favourite foods to eat.

Personally: Soya Milk tastes great, it just has a 'different' taste to animal milk and I don't think non vegans give it a chance. It's healthier too, and the fortified stuff contains some of your essential B vitamins.

Vegan Ice-cream is great, there's one called Swedish Glace (not sure if it's actually from Sweden though) and there's Booja Booja (or something like that) which I've not tried but people seem to love it.

Soya Cheese - not so good :(, but Tofutti spreadable cheeses are really nice. Nutritional Yeast flakes can give a nice cheesey taste to a jacket potato, mashed potato or some baked beans.

Good luck, I'd love to hear how it goes :)

Oct 17th, 2009, 07:41 AM
I was originally writing this as a response to a thread on weaning off of dairy, but it became too long, so I decided to make it its own post! For those of you becoming vegan, dairy is often the hardest thing to give up (especially if you were vegetarian before you were vegan). It really is all in our heads, however, so here's a quick guide on how to really cut your mental ties to diary!

In a behavior-modification sense, we must realize when we first attempt to give up dairy that cheese and dairy are most likely interpreted by our bodies and minds as 'reward' foods...I don't know if you realize how reward-driven humans are. The concept of 'reward' is kind of like an evolutionary mechanism that helps us strive for things that are 'good' so we can continue growing, learning and thriving as a species. Sometimes, however, the idea of a 'reward' can be deceptive, as nowadays almost nothing is the way nature originally intended when we developed this drive for a reward.

But, here's how it's a reward: casein, the protein in cheese, has been shown to cause a release of opiates in the brain. If that's not rewarding, I don't know what is! Casein exists in all dairy, but it is SUPER concentrated in cheese.

Not to mention, growing up most of us have fond, comforting memories of grilled cheese, macaroni and cheese, cheese flavored goldfish crackers, milk and cookies, milk with a pb and j, etceteras. We can say to ourselves 'well, I don't eat dairy now! It's bad!' but your psyche and body won't necessarily beleive you yet. Your subconcious will be saying 'bad? But don't you remember the time you were so upset, and your mother made you milk and cookies and you watched a movie together and everything was all better? Don't you remember coming home from playing in the snow and your mom would make you half a grilled cheese sandwich with a warm cup of creamy tomato soup?? This isn't bad, this is good! And you want it!' Nostalgia, memories, love, warmth, good feelings...all from dairy.

This is where meditation comes in. Since the cravings are in your head more than they are in your body (especially after you've detoxed from dairy for a few days), the most important things you can do for your 'addiction' is meditate. I don't mean sit in the dark and think about nothing. I mean actively meditate to change your perceptions of dairy, for good.

What you want to do is basically to get in your own head and start breaking down those powerful ties to dairy (and any animal foods; this would work for anything, really). Right now, your subconcious is full of ways in which dairy can be considered rewarding, comforting and basically good. You need to calm your mind, get into a focused state, and start suggesting other things to yourself.

Meditations that can be done:
As-ising: Disconnect yourself from the idea that milk is a food source. Envision a calf nursing from the mother cow, and try to change your feelings about what you are watching. You are watching milk in its rightful place. Milk is for baby cows. Milk is the right of the calf you are watching. Do this until it seems strange to think of drinking that.

Personalizing the Cow: Get a block of cheese and focus on it in front of you. Try to realize that this block of milk actually came from a cow (probably a bunch of cows, actually, but for the sake of this meditation, just think of one cow). Try to imagine the cow it came from. Try to imagine what that cow's life was like. How recently do you think this cow was pregnant? Do you think that cow was still missing its calf when she was being milked to produce the milk for this cheese? What do you think she looked like? Keep in mind this cheese came from a living, breathing being, not a store. Try to develop that connection so that when you look at cheese, you stop thinking 'food' and start thinking 'something from a live animal.'

The next level of the above exercise would be trying to imagine the cow dairy came from any time you see dairy. It will only take a couple of seconds, and you'll start looking at dairy as the extension of a living being somewhere, much in the same way we can look at meat as the animal itself.

Disliking a favorite meal: Take one of your favorite dairy meals, and envision it in your head. Visualize yourself eating your favorite dish, only in your visualization, you don't like it. The flavor just isn't good. Maybe you're sitting in a dark, grey setting eating this meal; it's not enjoyable. Try to think of a time when you ate this dish and your experience wasn't good; maybe you overate and felt bloated afterwards. Concentrate on the bloated feeling.

And of course, instead of focusing so negatively on animal foods, perhaps shift your focus to plant foods, visualizing them growing in fields among boundless sunshine, ready to give you energy and life and joy. Start trying to create bonds with veg food, focusing on the great feelings you have after eating them.

I know this all may seem a little weird, but it really did help me in the beginning when I was having trouble going vegan and kept going back to vegetarian; that and watching videos of calves separated from their mothers almost instantly after birth, and watching the absolute pain the mother felt at losing her baby; that in and of itself made me feel bad that humans are stealing dairy from baby calves just because we like the taste :-(

Compassion all by itself is a good enough cure for ridding oneself of pesky dairy cravings.

Hope this helps someone!

Oct 19th, 2009, 03:22 PM
Thanks for this post! Dairy is the worst struggle for me, especially as I live with my parents over the weekend and my Mum always has dairy in the house, makes things with it, and says things like, "Well, it's organic so it's fine"...


I'm sure this post will be helpful for others as well!