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Korn
Aug 1st, 2004, 10:57 AM
Do you believe that if people would live a 'natural' life, be more exposed to good bacteria, eat fresh, organic food, not use amalgam, not drink coffee, not drink chlorinated water or plants that have been watered with chlorinated water, avoid fluor, not use oral contraceptives, not drink water from tubes copper tubes, not eat so much cooked, frozen and canned food as they do, not use sugar, avoid tobacco and alcohol, not have a possible history of B12-eating parasites from animal products/pets, not have a storage of mercury in their bodies from eating fish, not be exposed to pollution from cars, not use microwave owens, eat more of the plants that are most rich in B12, possibly include fresh algae and seaweed in their diet, if they never had used antibiotics and consumed a lot of other B12 reducing chemicals, if their colons weren't totally polluted by a life on a very unclean diet, would get enough sunlight and natural calcium and even had started life with a healthy mother that let them continue breastfeeding as long as they wanted (OK, I'll stop here :-) ) .... do you still think they would need B12 supplements in order to remain healthy?

eve
Aug 2nd, 2004, 01:36 AM
Quite a tall order, Korn. I'll stick to my daily B12 tablet to be on the safe side!

phillip888
Aug 2nd, 2004, 07:28 PM
I don't think we would need extra B12 on a plant diet, in fact I don't think most of the things you listed can reduce B12 levels enough to cause harm on their own. I think the biggest problem is the lack of B12 producing bacteria in the food chain, and the fact that many people are exposed to almost all the things you listed and often...

DontJustDoSomething, SitThere
Aug 3rd, 2004, 10:24 PM
I'll stick to my daily B12 tablet to be on the safe side!

Hello, Eve... don't you think all the meat eaters out there with B12 deficiency already proven that consuming "enough" B12 isn't "enough", and not safe?

eve
Aug 4th, 2004, 01:07 AM
Hello, Eve... don't you think all the meat eaters out there with B12 deficiency already proven that consuming "enough" B12 isn't "enough", and not safe?

Sorry but what do you mean? I know of meat eaters with B12 deficiency, and their docs recommend eating more meat. Consuming meat is not the answer, but there's no doubt that B12 deficiency is a problem to omnivores and vegans alike. I've read somewhere it could be due to the fact that households are so 'hygienic' nowadays, whereas years ago kids ate dirt in with food. As I said, I'll stick to my daily B12 supplement.

DontJustDoSomething, SitThere
Aug 13th, 2004, 04:48 PM
I just mean that consuming "enough" B12 doesn't necessarily mean that one is on the safe side, which is obvious as there are so many meat eaters that get plenty B12 from their diet (and many of them eat multivitamins in addition to their animal based diet) - and they still become B12 deficient.

Ignoring B12 ain't "safe" either. The only safe solution might be to strive for a more natural life style, and include B12 as a supplement if needed.

Trendygirl
Sep 16th, 2004, 03:08 AM
Did you know that if we were like chimpanzees and ate our own poo then we would have enough B12 in our diet. It is something to so with cultivation.

We would also have enough vitamin D if we all walked around naked. Itís not our diet that is stopping us getting it, its our culture. However I would prefer to pop a few pills than eat my own poo and walk around naked!

wuggy
Sep 18th, 2004, 04:56 PM
I think it would take a complete overhaul of the whole Planet to acheive a truly 'natural' state. I do hope to live much more 'naturally' though, and am working on it now!
I know one Vegan who refuses to take any supplements atall, to prove how healthy being Vegan is. However, I have been B vitamin deficient before, it wasn't good, so I have Soya milk (fortified) every day, and take a supplement.

Korn
Sep 18th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Did you know that if we were like chimpanzees and ate our own poo then we would have enough B12 in our diet. It is something to so with cultivation.

The example with eating poo is often mentioned by non-vegans (or some vegans) that assume that the chimpanzees' poo is the reason they don't have B12 problems. Normally they forget to look at all the orther differences between how chimpanzees in humans live: fluorized water from copper tubes, amalgam, non-organic food, non-fresh food, non frozen/cooked/canned food and so on. But I agree that it most likely has to do with culture.



We would also have enough vitamin D if we all walked around naked. It’s not our diet that is stopping us getting it, its our culture. However I would prefer to pop a few pills than eat my own poo and walk around naked!

Regarding vitamin D, the main problem in our culture might be that we even during fall/winter/spring have decided to go to work while the sun is helping us with vitamin D, which in most cases means staying indoors. An hour (or less) of sun daily might be enough, even if only our face would be exposed to the sun. If we sometimes get more sun, or more parts of the body is exposed to the sun, the vitamin is stored in the body. So it's a lot easier to deal with vitamin D than with B12.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind if people would walk around naked, as long as they didn't do it chewing on their poo... :)

Trendygirl
Oct 2nd, 2004, 06:12 PM
I have just read Plant Based Nutrition & Health by Stephen Walsh PhD ISBN 0-907337-26-0, available from the Vegan Society. This book is amazing, it explains a lot and is very well researched.

Seaside
Jun 26th, 2005, 05:37 AM
If B12 is produced by bacteria, why can't they just isolate the bacteria like they do with other probiotics so people can take them instead of actual Vitamin B12? No one makes a fuss at all about supplementing their diets with probiotics if they have been through a course of antibiotic drugs, or are battling yeast infections. If the modern lifestyle kills these beneficial bacteria, needing to replace them is crucial for everyone, not just vegans. Having a colony of B12-producing bacteria inside your gut that is harmed by the pollutants in the environment, and needing to replace it when this happens, is no different for meat eaters than it is for vegans, and I would rather consume beneficial bacteria than corpses OR tablets. Its no different than a doctor recommending a source of Lactobacillus (usually from yogurt, but it doesn't have to be) after a patient has had a course of antibiotics.

Seaside
Jun 29th, 2005, 06:12 AM
Nah, I'm just a do-it-yourselfer when it comes to my health. :)

Pilaf
Jul 2nd, 2005, 08:53 PM
I'm under the impression that eating a strict vegan diet reduces the body's need for B-12 anyway.

moochbabe
Aug 18th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Is it ok if our multi vitamin alone has vitamin B-12 in it? I've given the vitamin some thought, but figured that this would be enough...but now I would just like to know for sure or not. I would really hate to be defficient! :)

Korn
Aug 18th, 2005, 07:50 AM
I'm under the impression that eating a strict vegan diet reduces the body's need for B-12 anyway.

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555

abrennan
Aug 20th, 2005, 03:36 AM
Dear friends

When I participated in the poll I had to say I don't know, I have an opinion but I am not fully confident. I see that there are many great posts and links that I will investigate shortly that may lift my confidence in my opinion.

I take a b12 supplement, irregularly.

But my I like the title of this thread "Is there something wring with nature?" as it fits my opinion.

It does seem strange to me I live in a universe where being vegan is the healthiest, life promoting, disease reducing, ethical way to live except for one teeny weeny microscopic vitamin....b12.

For decades the vegan wave has swamped everything that stood in its way. The protein myth, the calcium myth, iron, etc, etc and etc, yet we are stalled by this tiny vitamin.

I couple years ago I had a debate with people from the USFDA and they were very unconvincing in defending their ideology. Most of the information they used to defenf the stance sounded like an advertisement from the cattlemens association.

I could be wrong, hence my voting "I don't know", but I sense a myth wating to be busted.

I could accept that the toxic pollution we have poured into the stream of our lives has profound effects on our physiolgy, like stripping the vitamins from our system and leaching the calcium from our bones.

But I am not convinced that out of all the nutritional factors the universe left us without one. That in the millions of years of our evolution we moved from being tree dwelling possibly 100 percent vegan fruit and nut eating critter to a larger mammal who needs to eat animals to get access to only one microscopic, but important, vitamin.

I'm no expert on this, that's my intuition speaking. The evidence for the benefits of a vegan lifestyle is large, very large, all of life encompassing. I think that we'll find that, when not intrerfered with, humans produce and re-absorb b12 like other vegan animals.

I might post back here after I look at all those other posts and links.

Antony
Australia

moochbabe
Aug 20th, 2005, 04:09 AM
Antony, I really agree with u. I find it hard to believe that, had we not polluted our bodies with a number of man-made catastrophies, we would not be able to live without having to supplemet vitamin B12. Yet, I think that with everything that we, and past generations, have done to our bodies we need to take supplements or do something in order to prevent a deficiency. I think that one day, if we continue to be very healthy and vegan then we will be able to "fix" the generations to come, and they will be able to live the way nature intended. Let's all keep our fingers crossed and keep the veggies coming!:D

abrennan
Aug 20th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Let's all keep our fingers crossed and keep the veggies coming!:D

I'm with you Veg On!

Antony

Korn
Aug 20th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Hi Antony, and welcome!

'But I am not convinced that out of all the nutritional factors the universe left us without one.'

As you may know, I don't think so either. Now, IF the universe would have been playing games with us by leaving out one nutrient, I would see that only as a little hint to humans that we need to cultivate that nutrient using non-harmful methods not involving killing animals or keeping them in captivity.

We were born with almost everything we need in this world except warm clothes, so maybe there's someone or something out there that wants us to cultivate nature (without harming it), for example by making clothes out of cotton or make B12 on the surface of molasses.

There are many plants that contain B12, the question is more about the amounts provided, what it is that destroys B12, how to reduce the needs for B12, and most of all to understand the mystery associated with the so called B12 analogues. What are they? Are they simply B12 molecules that have grown old and died?

After having spent some time focusing on the B12 issue, it looks more and more like the whole thing is not about what you eat, but what you drink.

And instead of only focusing on only what we eat to get B12, we may need to focus on how fresh it is. B12 is destroyed by heat/age/light, and in my attempts to start some mini-research on B12 in plants, I have learned that many of the test-results we see are not performed on fresh plants, but on plants that are exposed to not only heat/age/light, but also to chlorinated water and other nasty stuff.

Many B12-related areas that desperately need more research. This research probably would show that a lot of the existing B12-research is misleading, or even useless.

'I'm no expert on this, that's my intuition speaking' I've seen interviews with a few Nobel Prize winners who said that this was how the process that lead them to the price were starting. Go ahead! :)

'I sense a myth wating to be busted'. So do I. Step one to bust that myth would probably be to help as many pro-vegan people as possible to understand that they shall not fight on the wrong side; not the 'vegan food is not natural'-choir.... Ufortunately, some vegan writers and other 'authorities' suffer from the Vegan Hypocondraic Syndrome, and are most of all afraid of getting sued by saying something wrong that possibly could get them into trouble in the future. Some vegans who are not at all interested in whether the vegan diet is our natural diet or not, seem to forget that many of us have deep respect for nature, and what 'it's' intentions are, and therefore are happy with recommending pills - and only that.

The most common question vegans seem to get, is 'But where do you get your nutrients from?'. If we can both let people know that B12 needs special attenton, due to a number of reasons (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196), and at the same time break the myth that B12 only exist in animal products, which clearly is not the case, we have already moved a big step forward.

In science, things have a reason, even non-reliability (plants are often said to be a unreliable B12 source). I'm not saying the plants most of us eat ARE reliable B12 sources, but what exactly is that unreliability? THAT needs some serious research and attention.

eclectic_one
Oct 14th, 2005, 05:21 PM
I know I'm coming into this WAY late, but T. Colin Campbell in The China Study (I think) points out that if the vegetables are grown in healthy soil with lots of micro-organisms--NOT like the soils in most industrial-type farms (especially here in the US)--the plants absorb some B12, which would probably end up supplying it to us. Unfortunately, my understanding is that most "advanced" technological Western nations have destroyed their topsoil and the nutrients within, so the veggies aren't as nutritious all around--especially the B12 issue.

marika5
Oct 15th, 2005, 07:09 PM
I'll put it this way: even if we were living on an island paradise with extremely nutient-rich soils and perfect plant food sources and none of the adverse effects, I'd still want to take a B12 supplement. One could argue the case that taking it from a supplement is a more direct way to obtain it in the diet than through eating animals--they get it from bacteria, doesn't it make more sense for us to get it from a bacterially-derived source, too, rather than using the animals as a source? If we were eating "dirty" plants we'd probably still take in only traces compared to what we could get from a supplement.

Of all the potential threats to B12 metabolism, I suspect that old age is the biggest one. As we get older our "intrinsic factor" is diminished, which is why (I think, haven't pulled up the source lately to be certain) up to 40% of elderly meat eaters are deficient in B12.

moochbabe
Oct 16th, 2005, 05:54 AM
i hope i never get a b-12 deficiency, that's all i know, and that's y i continue to take a supplement. what u say about the direct source really does make sense, i think there are a lot of factors that lead to b-12 deficiency, but that someday, if we can reverse the damage for the future, there will no longer be that problem, i mean they didn't have it (that scientists can tell) in the times when humans only gathered plant food to eat...

greenworlds
Feb 6th, 2006, 11:02 PM
Do you believe that if people would live a 'natural' life, be more exposed to good bacteria, eat fresh, organic food, not use amalgam, not drink coffee, not drink chlorinated water or plants that have been watered with chlorinated water, avoid fluor, not use oral contraceptives, not drink water from tubes copper tubes, not eat so much cooked, frozen and canned food as they do, not use sugar, avoid tobacco and alcohol, not have a possible history of B12-eating parasites from animal products/pets, not have a storage of mercury in their bodies from eating fish, not be exposed to pollution from cars, not use microwave owens, eat more of the plants that are most rich in B12, possibly include fresh algae and seaweed in their diet, if they never had used antibiotics and consumed a lot of other B12 reducing chemicals, if their colons weren't totally polluted by a life on a very unclean diet, would get enough sunlight and natural calcium and even had started life with a healthy mother that let them continue breastfeeding as long as they wanted (OK, I'll stop here :-) ) .... do you still think they would need B12 supplements in order to remain healthy?

No

Romac
Feb 28th, 2006, 10:26 PM
B-12 breakthrough!

Nature rules!
Stolen from the veggieboards:

http://www.notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html

Vitamin B-12, Sex & Internal Secretions


Warning to my readers:

Today's column contains explicit sexual themes. If you embarrass easily, or if your religious, moral, or ethical beliefs prevent you from reading material of a sexual nature, please, read no more. In today's commentary, I discuss the science of sex in as dignified and delightful a manner as I am able, sometimes using a bit of humor, but continuously recognizing that such concepts may be offensive to some people, so please, if you find such discussion inappropriate, stop reading immediately. If you are easily offended by material of a sexual nature, please exercise the use of your delete button now.

Without embarrassment, this is a subject that needs to be discussed. I am past the point of being disgusted by know-it-all vegetarian and vegan nutritionists and dieticians who believe that one must take artificial supplements derived from cow intestines, containing Vitamin B-12 in order to maintain good health. The fact that vegans have B-12 in their bloodstreams is evidence enough that we're somehow obtaining it. Low dose, high dose, it really doesn't matter. Fact is that we need just a few micrograms of B-12, and a five-year supply is stored in the average human liver. That fact alone negates the scare tactics of those who criticize
the pure vegan diet, or dispense supplements as a part of their self-sustaining practices.

Vegan blood contains some B-12. In that, there is no debate. Vegan semen and vaginal secretions contain many times more Vitamin B-12 than does human blood.

The solution? Make love. Enjoy oral sex. The ingestion of sexual body secretions from your lover will insure good health for you.

In addition to the usual frogs, snails, and puppy dogs tails, what are little boys made of? What exactly is in semen?

Ten percent of semen consists of sperm cells, up to 500 million per ejaculate. It takes only one sperm cell to fertilize an egg. I often wonder why the other 499,999 are necessary.

What constitutes the other 90% of semen? In addition to enormous amounts of vitamins, enzymes, and amino acids, semen contains up to 20 times the level of Vitamin B-12 as does human blood serum. Vaginal fluids contain a similar makeup, rich in B-12.

Scientists knew this nearly 20 years ago, but had no socially-tactful way to transmit this information to the lay person. (Yeah, I know, you love my use of the English language).

As early as March of 1984, Carmel Bernstein and a team of investigators published evidence in the Journal of Clinical Investigations (73;3, Vitamin B-12 in human seminal plasma) revealing that blood has one-tenth the amount of B-12 as does male semen.

Eight years later, the Scandanavian Journal of Clinical Laboratory Investigations (Hansen, 1992 Nov;52(7):647-52) determined that B-12 levels in human semen run as high as 20 times that of blood. Similar amounts of B-12 have been found in vaginal secretions.

Second and final warning. For those of you unwilling or unable to discuss or partake in the loving art of cunnilingus or fellatio, read no more. What follows is descriptive.

Many people have an aversion to oral sex because of the taste or smell. Can that often be justified? Absolutely.

Long ago, in the days before artificial modern-day perfumes and deodorants were used to mask human odors, people enjoyed body smells. Don Juan would keep handkerchiefs under his armpits and wave them in front of ladies' noses. That action was designed to bring them to arousal from his own natural essences and bouquet which contained pheromones, chemicals
containing natural sexual messengers that communicate instinctual feelings shared by all mammals. Truth revealed: Why does a male dog mount and hump a human female leg, thrusting his pelvis as if in the act of copulation? It's not because he smells your puppy, ladies. It's because he smells your very own pheromones which trigger a genetically pre-determined fixed action pattern in Fido's brain.

On to the olfactory bouquet from your own essences.

Dairy farmers know that if their cows eat onions or garlic less than 30 minutes before milking, those powerfully offensive smells will be included in their body secretions which are then transmitted to their milk. A similar event occurs with human body fluids. You are what you eat. Deer know when meat-eating humans walk into the woods. Vegans have a way with denizens of the forest. Vegans do not eat other living creatures. Deer can tell by human smells. So can dogs and other mammals possessing keener olfactory senses than humans.

For many years, non dairy-using Japanese people called Americans "butter-people," for the rancid smell that would seep out of our pores. I can smell butter people. I am amazed at the number of people calling themselves vegan who are actually dairy users. I can smell the aftermath of pizza 24 hours after a vegan eats one by his or her offensive odor. The mozzarella turns rancid from within. Its smell lingers on a user's breath. Milk the cow and get the garlic or onion milk. Milk the human and get Kentucky-fried chicken essence.

Humans who eat meat ingest large amounts of sulfur-based amino acids. That is one of the qualities of meat protein. The sulfur becomes a part of their own smell and taste. Eat large amounts of methionine and you'll taste quite rancid.

I have met many vegans who relate anecdotal evidence of how other vegans make better lovers because they "taste better." Where are Masters and Johnson when you need them? The good that comes from this column will result in two lovers enjoying a large meal of fresh pineapple before their next bout of foreplay. Gourmets and epicurians of the world, unite. Your next dose of love will contain the best vitamin pill in the world. Was it Mary Poppins who sang, "Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down"?

Remember, for B-12, make love, and do so with good taste.

insubordination
Mar 1st, 2006, 11:37 AM
I take B12 in a daily multivitamin and a separate b12 supplement every other day.

Got my B12 tested the other day and it was double the amount in the upper figure of the range. Guess I can cut back on the supplementation a bit now.
:-)