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Korn
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:14 PM
so slavery is not really abolished True. The main difference is that we usually don't import the slave workers to our countries anymore - we let them work where they come from, and only import the products they make. That's a lot more profitable anyway, and leaves us with no or little legal responsibility for what could happen with them under the questionable conditions they work under.

pusskins
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:16 PM
Thank you, harpy and Manzana. Very good replies. It's hard to try to argue with somebody who does it for money and is respected as authoritative :(

harpy
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Even here there are people who have servants who are effectively slaves, so I've read, and then there are "trafficked" prostitutes though there is controversy about how many.

This site has a lot more info about present-day slavery http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/antislaveryday.aspx

vava
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Could you not just say - I don't recall asking for your opinion on my accessories?

Manzana
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:44 PM
hahaha... I love it Vava... yep, that one gets my vote!

pusskins
Dec 17th, 2010, 12:45 PM
@vava Hmmm - I could, but then he would most likely retort "Don't wear something so provocative, then." And then make a big song and dance in the future if ever I wore a necklace or earrings and he overheard somebody complimenting them "Don't say anything! She doesn't like it!"

Gosh, I really do love the people I have to suffer... sorry, work with!!

I do like the response, though, vava :) To be used with others!

vava
Dec 17th, 2010, 01:15 PM
then you reply - you only noticed cos you looked!

When I was nursing a really cute guy (patient) was walking towards me in a long corridor with nasty hospital PJ's on and I told him he was flying - this was his response and after laughing gutwrenchingly I have remembered it ever since. Hopefully if you use it = he will feel like a dirty old man and leave you alone in the future. Of course the other way to look at it is that he is baiting you cos he can be bothered and in my experience you never bother with folk you don't like....

emzy1985
Dec 17th, 2010, 04:50 PM
I'm currently having a discussion with somebody on Facebook about zoos. She ofcourse thinks that Colchester Zoo is amazing and is listing all the "great" things they do for animal welfare - so without me screaming, "I'm a trucking abolitionist" in her face, how can I go about this?

Manzana
Dec 17th, 2010, 05:24 PM
You can tell her that zoos are run by business people (not biologists/zoologists) and business people are there to make money...

you can also ask her how many gorillas (and most zoos have gorillas) have been reintroduced in the wild (the answer is very close to 0) in which case, the issue of "conservation of vulnerable species" falls a bit on its a**e...

You can also tell her that zoos wake a passion in some children to "love" animals but it also teaches them that it is ok to put them behind bars for our own enjoyment...

Eventually, you can ask her if she would like to be in a zoo with all those wonderful things they do for "enrichment"... In the end, when we think about it, we all know that we'd hate to be in a zoo...

leedsveg
Dec 17th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Well put, Manzana :thumbsup:

lv

harpy
Dec 17th, 2010, 05:35 PM
Some zoos seem better than others in terms of the habitats provided and so on, but given that the rate at which they return animals to the wild is mostly extremely low, most of the animals there will live out their entire lives in captivity - would she like that for herself?

Must admit I feel slightly ambivalent about zoos myself, not from a vegan point of view but to the extent that some of them rescue "pets" that have been ill-treated or abandoned, and also may in theory conserve endangered species that can eventually be released in the wild, but I don't really see a case for breeding wild animals that can never live a wild life, which is what mostly seems to happen.

Johnstuff
Dec 17th, 2010, 06:39 PM
^Agreed.

Also zoos are rubbish from an educational perspective because the animals' behavoir is not how they would naturally behave in the wild.

emzy1985
Dec 17th, 2010, 09:06 PM
Thanks guys! :)

Clueless Git
Dec 18th, 2010, 01:53 PM
He (correctly) said that murder means the killing of humans. And he walks off all smug.
I use the bolded part of the following quote for that one ...

Truely man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men. ~Leonardo da Vinci

Followed by something along the lines of ...

"I guess how people choose to see the murder of animals depends largely on if they are more like Leonardo Da Vinci than they are like Homer Simpson, of course .."

TXvegan
Dec 22nd, 2010, 03:09 PM
"Sorry, still enjoying meat! It's a personal choice I don't try to convince people otherwise." after I posted a link on my Facebook profile to an article from Psychology Today about how scientists are saying you can safely eat cloned cattle and my reply to the article was "Reason #129 to go vegan"...Funny, I thought my profile was about me and not about the person who wrote the idiot reply. ARGH.

Back-Space
Dec 22nd, 2010, 04:31 PM
"Sorry, still enjoying meat! It's a personal choice I don't try to convince people otherwise." after I posted a link on my Facebook profile to an article from Psychology Today about how scientists are saying you can safely eat cloned cattle and my reply to the article was "Reason #129 to go vegan"...Funny, I thought my profile was about me and not about the person who wrote the idiot reply. ARGH.

See, this is why I try to avoid human interaction :p People suck... Well, most of them anyway :p That's why I like the SPCA. Dogs make better people than most people do :D

You guys seem to have a lot of arguments over facebook. Isn't there someway to post your opinion and block people attempting to reply to it? If they've got a problem with it, then they can stop reading your profile :p

Clueless Git
Dec 22nd, 2010, 08:25 PM
You guys seem to have a lot of arguments over facebook.
Don't they just!

Forum fund raising idea coming up ...

Submit the face book argument to a topic (easy enough to set one up for the purpose?) - let the members here come up with witty/sharp replies.

If the FB user thinks any replies are good enough to use they have donate $5.00 (or something) to the running of this forum in return for the 'intelectual' <ahem!> copyright.

pat sommer
Dec 26th, 2010, 10:34 PM
TX Vegan; I like how the FB post you received started with SORRY:
"well, if you truly are sorry, there may be hope for you yet'

Clueless Git
Dec 27th, 2010, 12:25 PM
This one seriously worried me ...

Boxing day dinner with my family at m'mum'n'dads house; After 20+ years of being cut to shreds on any and every possible angle of 'meating eating is not wrong' only the smallest token amounts of meat ever appear at our family get togethers if I am going to be there. This year my very simple vegan contributions to the table were sausage rolls (Linda McCartney) and coronation (Real-Eat) chicken, both of which were happily consumed and complimented on by everyone.

My sister, entirely non-provocatively, commented that she didn't understand why any one who "didn't like meat" would want to eat anything that satisfactorily (to a meat eaters palet) mimmicked meat flavours.

A bit of gentle digging reveals that even after 20+ years of hearing all the animal welfare / land use / environmental damage / human health / human starvation / spiritual & religious arguments against meat eating my sister still cannot grasp that there is any possible reason for not eating meat other than not liking 'meaty' flavours.

I kinda became aware during the conversation that to some people (a LOT of people?), as no visible harm happens to themself on a fork by forkfull basis, the concept of meat eating being, in any meaningfull way, a harmfull practice is totally incomprehensible.

Festered
Dec 27th, 2010, 03:21 PM
I have been on a diet recently, having packed on a few extra tyres. Am sitting at my desk at work and someone comments on my weight loss then asks, 'But what on earth can you cut down on, if you're vegan?!'
Me :- 'Erm, chips, fried food, bread, stodge, cider, wine, using too much oil in my cooking, crisps, pastries, ready-made junk etc'
Clown:- 'OH! I didn't realise you could eat all that!'
:confused:

llhalvor
Dec 27th, 2010, 08:10 PM
This was my first christmas as a vegan and I ended up in the bathroom crying out of frustration. Since the second our family got together I felt like I was the butt of all jokes. The chili was cooked sperate from the beef and my brother tried to put the beef on my plate to get a laugh out of everyone. Then he proceeds to rub his rough wool sweater on my cheek, to top that off his "hippie gf" tries to explain to me that the wool is shaved and that the animals don't get cut. (Like I was confused...) My sister making snide comments about how even her dog wouldn't vegan food and my brother complaining that all the baking (because I'm the only one who got off my butt to bake) was vegan, etc. Then proceeds to say he could be vegan and that I am not better then he is because I am vegan, etc. etc. Well after my whole family chimed in and they decided to "correct" me by saying that the animals all die anyways so who cares - oh and how silly I am because cows don't feel pain. I felt like no matter my response I had 5 people telling me how wrong and silly I was. Any advice? Has anyone else had a complete emotional melt down from being bullyed about being vegan?

Manzana
Dec 27th, 2010, 08:29 PM
Hi lllhalvor,

First of all, sorry to hear about ur frustrating Christmas... it does get easier (a lot easier!) with time... in my experience!

Second, you do not have to sit down and take it, you are perfectly entitled to warn them and tell them "I would love to spend Christmas with you, I love you and you are my family... however, if I have one more stupid comment/joke/disrespectful touching of the subject, I am going to be forced to leave". If you tell your parents in advance something like this, they will pay more attention next time... and if they don't spend Christmas with some vegans and they will be a lot more careful when they realise that you do not have to spend your valuable time being bullied (even if it is by your family)...

People are a bit like children... just testing the limits... so make sure you let them know where the limits are.

Tish
Dec 27th, 2010, 08:32 PM
I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience llhalvor. I think when you go vegan some folk just think (through no action on your part!) that you are somehow directly criticising them -and they can become very, very defensive. :confused:

Over time they will calm down and just see it as 'normal' and part of who you are. Just remember it's their problem and not yours and try your best not to let it upset you- I know it can be hard though :hmm:.

Hopefully they will gradually not be so defensive and might even become genuinely curious about and interested in your veganism. Good luck :).

pat sommer
Dec 27th, 2010, 09:22 PM
So sorry as well, llhavor. Ain't it odd that families would never treat a perfect stranger that way but because they are secure in your love, they think they can get away with it?
At least you understand that they were in the wrong and you deserve better. Hope you can find resolution to this.

And Cupid Stunt: "I kinda became aware during the conversation that to some people (a LOT of people?), as no visible harm happens to themself on a fork by forkfull basis, the concept of meat eating being, in any meaningfull way, a harmfull practice is totally incomprehensible."

Kinda explains why the world is in such a state, doesn't it? I could give examples how I came to the same conclusion as you...

harpy
Dec 27th, 2010, 11:31 PM
That does sound horrid llhalvor - I'm afraid Christmas sometimes brings out the worst in families, doesn't it? I would guess they were just using their "teasing" of you to vent some general frustrations, weren't they? After a while the novelty of you being vegan will wear off and they will move on to something else on these occasions, no doubt.

Apart from what's already been suggested, I would consider simply refusing to get drawn into a conversation about it - just smile or pull a face or something if they make remarks, and go out of the room if necessary. You know you're in the right about this and you don't have to defend your position if you don't want to.

Must admit "cows don't feel pain" is not a line I've heard before :rolleyes: Presumably someone is on your side if they made vegan food for you?