Things meat eaters say and do

[vava]

I would say, Were nnot changing the world, but since omni's have 95 animals a year slaughtered for them on average (and that's only including direct meat consumption) by going vegan we arent saving or changing anything, we're just not having it killed. We're not doing anything good, we're just doing less bad

No you lost me there..... doing less bad? Where did you get the figure of 95 animals a year and what does this include? I imagine one cow would last a person longer than say 6 months if they ate some every day. Am confused.

[The Queen]

Can't remember were the figure's from sorry, but I wouldn't have stored it in my little brain if it wasn't credible. It's an average, and also based on the fact that an animal needs to die to eat it's meat, even if it's only a mouthfull.

By going vegan, we aren't contributing anything positive, we're just not contributing any harm as far as our diet is concerned.

I'm not the most articulate person sorry :o

[vava]

Can't remember were the figure's from sorry, but I wouldn't have stored it in my little brain if it wasn't credible. It's an average, and also based on the fact that an animal needs to die to eat it's meat, even if it's only a mouthfull.

By going vegan, we aren't contributing anything positive, we're just not contributing any harm as far as our diet is concerned.

I'm not the most articulate person sorry :o

I don't think I am the most articulate person either - sorry - prob best not to just quote figures - cos the nature of the folk here is that some pernickety sod like me may want to know a bit more about it. I do disagree with you about not doing something good tho - I think it is a great thing to be vegan and that as you so rightly say we are saving animal lives and being a role models hopefully for others who are intelligent and rational enough to realise that animal cruelty in all its forms is abhorrent.

Just this realisation is a good thing but to do something positive about it and stick to your vegan principles is a GREAT thing.

[The Queen]

But we're not saving them, we're just not killing them. That's like saying by not being a serial killer you've saved 20 people's lives! That's what I meant.

I understand I can be pernickety too :) I had hoped that since we are all vegan we are all intelligent enough to both look at the details and see the whole picture, people would generally trust that I wouldn't quote something if I didn't have it registered as a genuine fact in my brain XD

[vava]

But we're not saving them, we're just not killing them. That's like saying by not being a serial killer you've saved 20 people's lives! That's what I meant.

I understand I can be pernickety too :) I had hoped that since we are all vegan we are all intelligent enough to both look at the details and see the whole picture, people would generally trust that I wouldn't quote something if I didn't have it registered as a genuine fact in my brain XD

Thought the law of supply and demand dictated how many animals are bred? In this way we are saving animals from the food chain as our lack of demand would mean that fewer animals would be bred. I am not doubting what is in your brain I am asking for more info at source. :o

[earthling]

Sorry to jump in on the discussion... but I've always seen it as by being vegan, we help to create less demand for meat/dairy and therefore farmers eventually breed fewer animals for this purpose. So it's not saving lives as such (can you be said to be saving the life of a being by not bringing it into existence in the first place?), but more saving suffering, because fewer animals will be brought into the world specifically to suffer and die.

Either way it's a good thing. :)

[The Queen]

I think it's not a good thing still because the animals shouldn't have been bred in the first place, much like the serial killer shouldn't have gone on a killing spree in the first place. And everyone in any way shape or form involved in the meat industry is a serial killer to the vegan mind!

[vava]

I think it's not a good thing still because the animals shouldn't have been bred in the first place, much like the serial killer shouldn't have gone on a killing spree in the first place. And everyone in any way shape or form involved in the meat industry is a serial killer to the vegan mind!

What vegan mind? Are you tarring me with your own views because I am vegan - or implying that because I don't agree with you I am not vegan? Is still confused! If there is less demand for meat the animals are not bred in the first place - that is the whole point. Animal lives are saved because they are not brought into being and then destroyed.

[VagabondVegan]

Just to point out Veganism hasn't been present in the public eye all that long, its in direct contradiction to centuries maybe millenia of animal consumption for anyone to expect change on a macro scale any time soon is just a tad ambitious :).

Vava made a good point on how a micro scale can eventually lead to a macro scale. Supply and Demand is essentially how companies work out what they should be selling, that or they advertise things in a certain way as to get us to demand more of something which they will supply. You stop demaning they stop supplying. Obviously need a lot more Vegans in the world before that can take a greater effect.

On an even more micro scale ideas spread like viruses, sometimes it takes just 1 in a group (who knows their stuff) and they act as an example...or become missionary like which is a bit weird. Lost my train of though so to a new point.

The Queen, I have noticed you...kinda lack in the rhetoric department. :) Though I am no genius I am sure their is a rule on the flawed logic drawing a comparrison between genetically altered animals...and serial killers and a bit of a jump attack all meat industry workers as serial killers too...and even more of a jump to say that we all think that way about it hehe :).

[Columba]

Sorry to jump in on a rolling conversation, but I would like to point out that it's not all about changing the system on our very own. Most of us know that Americans will continue to eat factory farmed meat and wear leather jackets and go to the circus long after we're all dead and gone, and that nothing short of a shortage of resources will change that. For some of us, it's not so much about changing the way the world works as it is taking a stand for our own personal convictions. For example, I know it's wrong. I know that, in spite of the thousands and thousands of animals I will spare in my lifetime, I will probably never drive so much as one factory farm out of business, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is accepting that reality and sticking to my ethical guns regardless, because it's the right thing to do - and not for any more or any less.

Just my two cents. Happy Thursday, everyone!

[VagabondVegan]

Sorry to jump in on a rolling conversation, but I would like to point out that it's not all about changing the system on our very own. Most of us know that Americans will continue to eat factory farmed meat and wear leather jackets and go to the circus long after we're all dead and gone, and that nothing short of a shortage of resources will change that. For some of us, it's not so much about changing the way the world works as it is taking a stand for our own personal convictions. For example, I know it's wrong. I know that, in spite of the thousands and thousands of animals I will spare in my lifetime, I will probably never drive so much as one factory farm out of business, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is accepting that reality and sticking to my ethical guns regardless, because it's the right thing to do - and not for any more or any less.

Just my two cents. Happy Thursday, everyone!

What he said...think I was guna say that but totally slipped my mind in the last post at the end :P

[khadagan]

Good response, khadagan, although I think you actually are changing the world as well - have you seen those figures about how many animals etc the average omnivore consumes in a lifetime? That's before you take into account the influence you may have on other people, who may rethink their eating habits a bit as a result of knowing you, even if they don't all become vegan.

Thank you, but I guess I'm a bit cynical with these things. I have influenced some people in the past becoming vegan and telling so many people about veganism as well. I never preach though, only open up if someone insists and they often do after a while, I think is the best way. I love a saying I heared somewhere, think it might have been mother theresa (never thought I would quote her) 'we cannot all do great things, but we can do small things with great love'

[khadagan]

That's exactly how I feel as well :)

[khadagan]

My father after having just made pasta with meat throughout in the sauce (forgot the name for this classic dish) 'oh can't you just forget for one day that you're vegan?'

[khadagan]

I got this one a lot when I was younger and just turned vegan:

'you'll never keep this up' or also this one

'you're only doing this to be rebellious'

[VagabondVegan]

I got this one a lot when I was younger and just turned vegan:

'you'll never keep this up' or also this one

'you're only doing this to be rebellious'

Ohhhh those old chestnuts. I stopped being vegetarian a while back and people were like look even you couldn't do it then now I am Vegan and have it scarily well planned so now people just back away from me haha.

[khadagan]

With some of these responses I get or have gotten in the past I just end up feeling a bit sorry for the person who says it. I figure they must exist in a pretty negative place to actually come out with that nonsense

[VagabondVegan]

I, probably wrongly, assume they live in this boring world of mainstream normality and tedious tradition...hehe

[khadagan]

Thereof this argument I get regularly not necessarily related to Veganism which surprises me a lot because it comes from reasonably intelligent people as well.. That's 'surely if it's that bad the government won't allow it'. I guess it's kinda sweet that people still have that part of them with that childlike innocence thinking that someone is looking out for them or anyone at that matter, but I think it's also this weird false belief that keeps some people in their coma. Maybe I'm wrong though and people have their own worries and just don't want to be bothered with more. I still haven't figured that one out.

[VagabondVegan]

Thereof this argument I get regularly not necessarily related to Veganism which surprises me a lot because it comes from reasonably intelligent people as well.. That's 'surely if it's that bad the government won't allow it'. I guess it's kinda sweet that people still have that part of them with that childlike innocence thinking that someone is looking out for them or anyone at that matter, but I think it's also this weird false belief that keeps some people in their coma. Maybe I'm wrong though and people have their own worries and just don't want to be bothered with more. I still haven't figured that one out.

Thats what we call 'appeal to authority' in rhetoric :) falls under the category of a logical fallacy. Also kinda falls down the is-ought-gap: It's legal to eat meat therefore it is right to eat meat'. Again logical fallacy...I will go crawl under a rock again...

[khadagan]

Ah yeah interesting, that 'Its legal argument' is good, I can see that fall into thesame category thanks! And please don't crawl underneath a rock! ;)

[Clueless Git]

And Cupid Stunt: "I kinda became aware during the conversation that to some people (a LOT of people?), as no visible harm happens to themself on a fork by forkfull basis, the concept of meat eating being, in any meaningfull way, a harmfull practice is totally incomprehensible."

Kinda explains why the world is in such a state, doesn't it?
Aye Pat, it does, it does ...

Just for the sake of chit-chat:

Buddhism (although interpretations will vary widely) has this thing whereby the root cause of suffering is seeing self as seperate from other. One of the first things I saw and recognised as being true that caused me to read into it a bit further, that was.



I could give examples how I came to the same conclusion as you...

And I would be very interested to hear them!

[RubyDuby]

At Christmas dinner My bf's uncle randomly turned to me and said, "You need a lot of ingredients to make vegan food, don't you?. Sauce must be very important to you."
Huh? No, not really. Not any more than it is to the average person... People say the funniest things.

[harpy]

Sauce must be very important to you.

:confused: What were you doing at the time then Ruby?

[vava]

:confused: What were you doing at the time then Ruby?

she was being saucy!