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TofuMuncher
May 1st, 2004, 04:41 PM
There are some people who spend time surfing on the net trying to attack vegans or who defend killing animals and use of animal products. They often use the same, few "arguments", and frequently visit vegetarian discussion groups.

Here's one I've seen a few times when people are asked why they are not against killing animals: "Death is a natural part of life". Death is a natural part of human life too, but that doesn't justify killing humans (unless you are a murderer with a very twisted mind), does it?

My wife and I are college professors (and vegans). We advise incoming students on their careers, course choices, etc. with the help of a survey that asks students about their "passions." One of my wife's students listed his passion as "animal rights." When she asked him if he was a vegetarian (after hearing him go on about how passionately he loved animals) he said that he still ate meat, eggs, and dairy because "it was the natural order of things." :eek:

Of course, there's hope here for him if he really does love animals as he says, but I can't imagine that billions of animals slaughtered annually in factory farms is "the natural order of things." Still, she's being patient with him. He may yet learn.

TheFirstBus
Aug 5th, 2004, 05:43 PM
If he is talking about being more "natural" as a human he needs to relook at that, if he is saying animals eat other animals well animals eat plants to why can't we take after them??

moomin
Aug 6th, 2004, 12:10 AM
I made a vegan cake while round my boyfriends house a few weeks ago, hes a vegetarian but the rest of his family like mine eat meat. When he offered some of my cake to his little sister she said urggh no i dont like that kind of food. Already at age 11 shes been brain-washed in2 thinking vegan food must be disgusting, she then saw the cake and proceeded 2 eat a large slice of it when she realised it wasnt poison, but actually rather nice! Later when id left my boyfriend spoke to her about being a vegetarian and she said that she wouldnt do it because she 'knows' it makes you unhealthy, and then said and this is what really annoyed me 'and besides i didnt kill it.' i mean thats just heartbreaking, if my future children ever said that id b so disappointed and angry that they had learnt 2b so in denile.

TheFirstBus
Aug 6th, 2004, 01:15 AM
well your future children would know better right??

moomin
Aug 6th, 2004, 02:03 AM
I should hope so yeh. I would bring them up as vegans and teach them 2 respect animals but despite my efforts u cannot control 100% how a person will turn out, and sometimes i just worry that like that girl my future children just wont realise that meat does mean murder.

TheFirstBus
Aug 6th, 2004, 02:12 AM
Well I think your children would be more informed. Besides that little girl may even come around in time, I don't imagine she knows the suffering animals endure before they become her meal. It sounds like she has had some conditioning from a meateater or two. I think your kids will be fine.

moomin
Aug 6th, 2004, 02:18 AM
Woohoo, thanku 4 saying that. Yeh they definately will be more informed and the girl did know a bit about what they go through but she doesnt know the full extent,shes probably in denile just as 90% of other meat-eaters are.

TheFirstBus
Aug 6th, 2004, 02:26 AM
and its probably even more so for her because no one has told her otherwise yet.

Michelle
Aug 7th, 2004, 01:51 AM
That is so sad because when I found out that meat came from animals, I was convinced by family that it was "okay because...blah blah blah". I'm sure she was told the same thing. I would think that most kids (unless raised in camo or on a farm) would ask a question or two when first finding out that the meat they are eating comes from creatures they learned to love in story books, right?

Mystic
Aug 7th, 2004, 02:34 AM
A lot of the omni people I know understand where I am coming from, but choose to I suppose ignore it. They see a steak as a piece of food, rather then the buttocks of a cow! They see their milky cuppacino as something to drink instead of the nutrition for a baby calf. The cruelty behind what goes on is truly behind a black curtain. I guarantee that if more people actually saw what went on, there would at least be a lot more vegetarians/vegans.

I have heard a lot of 'food chain' type excuses...and that is their problem. I know I am doing what I think is right, and that is what counts. I don't believe in converting people. No one is making it hard for me and trying to convert me into a lacto or omni, so they deserve the same respect in my eyes.

eve
Aug 7th, 2004, 07:18 AM
I guarantee that if more people actually saw what went on, there would at least be a lot more vegetarians/vegans.
Sorry banana, but there are heaps of people who see what goes on - think of the thousands of people who are actually the killers. And most of the killing of chooks is done by females - but why would I expect women to be more compassionate than men? Where I live, just about everyone goes fishing, in fact a close friend of mine, Dulcie, loves fishing despite my suggesting that the fish really wants to stay alive. Another friend at the swimming group, also mentioned that she loves fishing, and I pointed out that just as we enjoy swimming, so do fish. But her only reply - repeatedly - was "but they are just FISH!"

ConsciousCuisine
Aug 7th, 2004, 07:55 AM
I have heard a lot of 'food chain' type excuses...and that is their problem. I know I am doing what I think is right, and that is what counts. I don't believe in converting people. No one is making it hard for me and trying to convert me into a lacto or omni, so they deserve the same respect in my eyes.
The difference is, if an omni would try to "convert you", the arguments for their cause would never stand up under yours, or any vegans' argument. Veganism makes sense on every level. Omni eating only makes sense on base, selfish, short-sighted levels. Anytime I am presented with something that makes no sense in any positvie way, I rebuke it and seek to educate/ share information. It would be wrong -for me- not to.

moomin
Aug 7th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Exactly! Most meat-eaters havent made a conscious decision to eat meat they just do, because, well they can and they dont care. Which is why they always lose their arguments to vegans, who r vegans because they have made an opinion about something and acted on it. Eating meat isnt like a belief/way of life in the same way that it is for a vegan to not eat meat.

Pembroke
Aug 8th, 2004, 01:35 AM
I agree with you guys 100% ...... almost. In a world of pure reason and logic, those arguing in favor of veganism would ALWAYS win. But alot of people are willing to completely ignore logic :(

Take my friends, for instance. I was at Ikea with a group of them. Ikea has a restuarant inside of it, and I was a little upset, cause there was virtually nothing for me to eat. We get to the table, and the topic of veganism came up, as it always does when I eat with my friends (they can't go through one meal without bringing it up).

So, we were talking about vegans, and one of my friends says "You can't live without meat. You'll die." WHAT!?! I asked him, am I not sitting next to you right now, completely alive, and a vegan? But, to everything I said, he responded "Nope, you can't live on a vegan diet. Besides, animals are here for us to eat." Sometimes it doesn't matter how well versed you are in the reasons to go vegan..... some people just will not listen.


Anyone ever gotten the "the bible says god put animals on this planet for us to eat" excuse? I've gotten it twice. My response: 1.) If there is a god, I hardly think he/she/it meant for animals to be pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones, then brutally killed, just so we could have dinner. 2.) I'm an atheist

The second reason usually ends the argument :D

moomin
Aug 8th, 2004, 01:46 AM
When people say things like u'l die from not eating meat u just know they r being stubborn. They know they r wrong, because hello as u said u r sittin right there but they just end up spouting out crap and going off the subject just because they dont wana admit they r wrong. And i swear i remember reading somewhere about parts of the bible that says animals are not made 4 us, which they r not ofcourse. I mean jesus christ (literally) the old/new testament which ever 1 it is (as u can tell im not exactly a big bible reader) but i know that it says things like when a woman gives birth she and everything she touches is unclean until a certain time, but get this, if she has a girl its unclean longer.Hard to explain, but read some of the bible cos then ul realise that some of it is actually bullocks. But there r some moral bits lol and included in there is that animals should also be treated fairly. As indeed they r all gods creatures!!

TheFirstBus
Aug 8th, 2004, 04:06 AM
"you can't save the animals"

I hate that one

beforewisdom
Aug 8th, 2004, 04:36 AM
There are some people who spend time surfing on the net trying to attack vegans or who defend killing animals and use of animal products. They often use the same, few "arguments", and frequently visit vegetarian discussion groups.
It annoys me that some vegan encourage those people by responding to their posts.

Those people feed off of attention......positive or negative.

I'd rather use my time on the internet to do something good, if only for myself. Readin up on nutrition, on news in the veg community, making friends in a nice forum like this.

Spending my time bickering with people who have nothing better to do then troll forums would make my life as pathetic as theirs.

Michelle
Aug 8th, 2004, 04:56 AM
Anyone ever gotten the "the bible says god put animals on this planet for us to eat" excuse? I've gotten it twice. My response: 1.) If there is a god, I hardly think he/she/it meant for animals to be pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones, then brutally killed, just so we could have dinner. 2.) I'm an atheist

The second reason usually ends the argument :D
This is one of the arguments that I hate the most. My OWN father used it on me even. "Even Jesus was a fisherman". WTF???? Anyway...I live in the "bible belt" of the USA and I've gotten that argument from every male that goes to a country church. I love the way people find a loop hole in the bible for each thing that they like to do. Oh...and this is a little off-topic, but kinda the same thing...I really hate it when a "bible toting" fanatic tells me things like, "Have a blessed day" and "the good lord this and that" and "Jesus would this and that" and "you should give to the church and you'll be blessed" then they turn around and gossip about people and have sex out of wedlock and lie, cheat and steal, etc. Then they wonder why I'm not as miserable as they are. Just like I'm not as miserable as them after lunch.

Since I'm ranting...

I work with this lady who is always talking about human rights and what's fair and what's good and blah blah blah. I have shared with her much information about the suffering of animals and she turns a deaf ear. She loves to talk, but when she gets her fried chicken or her barbecue or her fried fish, she sits at her desk not making a peep and really gets into it...like it's some sort of freakin' ritual (not like a habit type thing, but a ceremony type thing). I promise it takes her a whole 10 minutes just to situate herself and her food so she doesn't have to move again until she's done. Then, she will drink a whole bottle of juice or whatever and give out this big heavy sigh like she's never been so tired in her life. Then she wonders why she can't lose weight (very obese). Her excuse for eating meat is "my husband doesn't like anything but meat...we HAVE to cook it." Psshhht...yeah right. Of course she's also the type that can't cut up a whole chicken and has to have her steak well-done...cuz truth be known, if she would pay attention to what's really going on and what I tell her, she could never bring herself to eat meat. She knows it. That's why she blocks me out. And that makes me more mad than some redneck telling me "that's why God put them here."

End of Rant :)

Pembroke
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:11 AM
AARRGHH!!! Just reading about that lady has me pissed, lol.

TheFirstBus
Aug 8th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Last I remember jesus was havin' fun as a carpenter. Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.

TofuMuncher
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.

Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Michelle
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:18 PM
AARRGHH!!! Just reading about that lady has me pissed, lol.
Oh yeah! Sometimes I just want to scream. To top it off, she complains about being jacked around on the job, yet she has 3 other people doing her for work for her and another lady filing her papers for her. The last person that did her job did it all by himself.




Last I remember jesus was havin' fun as a carpenter. Besides animals right and human rights walk hand in hand.
Precisely.



Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.
Well, she also thinks that her race should have more rights than other minority races. I told her that I don't think anyone in this country has a right to be predjudiced except maybe the native Americans and the animals.That pissed her off pretty well, but really, none of us want to be stereotyped and if she thinks it's wrong for it to happen to her, I don't feel that she should do it to others.

TheFirstBus
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Yes so many probelms from that beast there. But also I meant the fact that by tearing down the facotry farms and making use of the land we could feed more people. Hense one thing effects another.

TheFirstBus
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Absolutely -- the contemporary expressions of oppression are the same in both cases (cough, CAPITALISM, cough), and need to be fought accordingly.

Yes so many probelms from that beast there. But also I meant the fact that by tearing down the facotry farms and making use of the land we could feed more people. Hense one thing effects another.

ConsciousCuisine
Aug 8th, 2004, 05:21 PM
but really, none of us want to be stereotyped and if she thinks it's wrong for it to happen to her, I don't feel that she should do it to others.
A-freakin'-MEN!