Help!! School outings...

[Span]

This is also in the 'pets' forum, but because I would like advice from other vegan parents, I've put it up her too

Safari parks? Should my children go? Aaahhh...
This is a really tricky one for me....

We are a family of vegans. Our children have been vegetarian from birth. My husband and I were veggies for many years.

I converted to vegan a while a go, and in the last few months, my husband and children have all made the final leap to full vegan. (To be honest, it wasn't really a big deal, as I cook most meals, they were vegan anyway, it was just treats like chocolate or crisps that got left behind).

The children are generally ok with it, but get a bit grumpy when they get left behind with the gimmicks like breakfast cereal giveaways or currently 'wonka' bars made for the charlie and the chocolate factory film recently released.

School can be a bit tricky, especially around Christmas, so I make a platter of vegan stuff just for them (although one teacher gave my 5 year old cheese and a fairy cake this year aah... but thats another thread...) and they get left out a bit with parties and things.

Our 5 year old already has 'social' issues and struggles to make friends easily (only in the last 6 weeks has he got his 'first' friend!) and I constantly worry that our lifestyle isolates him even more.

Anyway, I've gone off course a bit, but it is all kind of connected....

Our 4 year old is currently in nursery, but at the end of the academic year, will be going on a school trip and I'm guessing it will be to a fairly local safari park (it has been since the dawn of time).

Should we go?

I have to go with him (or at least one parent does), and we did go 2 years ago with our 5 year old son.

I really don't want to go, and I don't want our kids to go either, but I don't want them to be excluded more. All the other children will go, and the school will be doing a terms work on 'the animals' which he will not be a part of. And of course like most 4 year olds, he will want to go, and despite my attempts at explaining our ethical stance, it won't carry much weight to a 4 year old!

Of course, it then opens a whole can of worms because later in the school years, older children have visited farms (shame its not the factory sort as opposed to the petting sort;)


I'd really appreciate your opinions on this, especially from other parents, but anyone really.

As an avid animal rights activist, this really sticks in my throat, but I would hate to force our choices so far down our children's throat that they grow up omnivores and resent our best intentions:(

[Jacqui]

Have you raised your concerns with the school? Maybe take some literature in for them to look at.
I worked in child care for about ten years, and in the good centres, your concerns would be taken very seriously.
Its a hard one, I feel for you.

[Span]

Thanks Jacqui, I think its the first step to take.

Maybe I'm being a little synicle, but the school aren't very forward thinking when it comes to ethics like this.

When I told them about the children being vegan, our 5 year old came out and asked if he could eat 'wheat' because the teacher had prevented him from having some crisps:confused: Needless to say, he has since been armed with a list to give to teachers on what he can and can't eat, but I would have expected them to find out what 'vegan' was before they started assuming or excluding.

I think I will have to approach teachers with alternatives, but they aren't so easy to find locally, and many people still see 'animals' as educational, where as alternatives may not be quite so easy. Even our local botanical gradens keep birds as a cast off from their victorian origins:(

Does anyone know of good 'anti' literature for english safari parks, as most I find tends to aim at zoos more.

[sugarmouse]

it is a tough one that!
personally, i would let him go, mainly due to his age.maybe when he is a bit older he will understand more if such a situation rises again...mnd make the right choice.
having said that, what is this safari parks' reputation like?theyre not somethin i agree with aty all, but i would be a lot happier in this situation if it has a reputation for looking after the animals well, alot of space for them etc,than if it was the opposite.
also, if he is going to grow up vegan,and develop his own reasoning, perhaps he needs to see the animals and have that taste of captivity...

but as i stated before, this is personally.
it is up to you.
i find with children, being a little less extreme, means veganism is respected more and people listen more.
sad but true, alot of folk see me as an extremist, and i would class myself as about 90% vegan.based on the fact that i keep pets (all rescues apart from ahamster that was a present, i condemn pet shops), i still wear some wool items (mainly a veeeeeeeeeeeeery scruffy pink jumper which has sentimental value) and as is currently being highlighted in anothe rthread, if i eat out..i ask for ingredients and no animal products to be in my food, but you dont know if theres goingto be 'traces'.and this i do not check.
when people see you asan extremist, they tend to not accomodate, or listen, or respect your reasons.they think you are unhinged.and they wont co operate more.:(

[Span]

when people see you asan extremist, they tend to not accomodate, or listen, or respect your reasons.they think you are unhinged.and they wont co operate more.:(

Very true!!

Thanks for your input sugarmouse.

Like i said, i have been to this safari park before, and on the whole, the 'free to roam' animals were ok, but the reptile house was sad, and they have sealion shows in the amusement centre:mad:

The monkeys were all shot a few years ago because of disease, so I can't guarantee their welfare or veterinary policy, although I don't see bad press about them.

[Maisiepaisie]

I used to enjoy visiting zoos and safari parks before I was made aware of the reasons animals shouldn't be in captivity. My son is a little older so he understands the reasons and no longer wants to go. He knows that these places only exist because people pay to see captive animals so by visiting them, we are giving them our support and encouragement. I was also shocked to find out that Knowsley Safari Park culls "excess" monkeys or sells them for vivisection. Safari Parks are a bit better than zoos but they still inhibit the animals natural behaviour, particularly elephants, who in the wild will walk for hundreds of miles.

Having said all that though, a four year old is unlikely to understand and at that age, fitting in is more important. I would allow him to go if he wants to but do tell him all the reasons why these places are bad and he will think about this as he looks at the animals. In time I'm sure he will begin to understand and no longer want to visit such places.

[Span]

He knows that these places only exist because people pay to see captive animals so by visiting them, we are giving them our support and encouragement.

And this is one of my concerns - I will have to pay for us both to go:(

Thanks for your input.:)

[nettie]

Hi Span,
Thats a tough question that I've been wondering about myself, although Safari Parks havn't come up at school I expect they will. Also what about the farm park trips, you Know where they have all the adventure stuff plus a few animals. I wouldn't let them go to a zoo but I feel that I would let them go on a trip to a Safari Park with all of the information about them that is age appropriate. It does seem a dilema though in that is the message we are giving is its ok to keep animals for entertainment as long as the cage is nice. Also if I say its alright to go to a safari park to see the bad things humans do to animals then why can't they then go to a zoo to see the even worse way humans treat animals? (we wouldn't). The fitting in at school thing is really important though isn't it. My girl is 4 and she is luckily loud and confident and seems really proud of being vegan. My boy is only 8months so we've yet to see with him! Please let me know what you do in the end and how it goes as i'm sure I'll need to make a similar choice soon. nettie:)

[Maisiepaisie]

And this is one of my concerns - I will have to pay for us both to go:(

Thanks for your input.:)I think its the lesser of 2 evils. Your small financial contribution won't make much difference to the safari park and it will give your son the opportunity to judge for himself. He might even persuade some of the other kids that animals should be in the wild and it also gives you the opportunity to discuss it with other parents. Even if you don't sway their views immediately you will have "planted a seed". Informing others is the best way to get our messages across and in the long run this will do more good than not letting your son go. On the other hand if you refuse to let him go it could turn him against your views altogether.

[Cherry]

I really don't want to go, and I don't want our kids to go either, but I don't want them to be excluded more. All the other children will go, and the school will be doing a terms work on 'the animals' which he will not be a part of. And of course like most 4 year olds, he will want to go, and despite my attempts at explaining our ethical stance, it won't carry much weight to a 4 year old!



I would recommend that you talk to the school. (I'm a primary school teacher incidentally.) Tell them in a friendly sort of way (in writing if poss) that you want to support the school but are ethically opposed to paying to support animals being kept in captivity, and ask them to think about the possibility of vegan-friendly visits in future. Schools do get stuck in ruts with visits however! It makes it so much easier to organise when you've been before, know what the staff at the place in question are like, know what the learning experience is like and have done the risk assessment and planning of surounding work in previous years. It's worth a try though, and at least you'll get a bit of awareness going which will be handy for you in future.

I personally think you should go. It would be fairly bad for your son to lose the focus of a lot of lessons, and also not great for your relationship with the school. As people have suggested, use it as a 'vegan' learning experience for your son.

[puffin]

My son has been on a school trip to a safari park and loved seeing the animals. He knows its not nice to keep animals behind bars but that still didnt stop him being excited about seeing a rino and a wolf in real life. He also brought back a book on wolves and learnt so much from it. Do what you feel is best span.

[sugarmouse]

Some good advice there:)he will be exited about seeing the animals, and you can use it as an experience for him in which to view them and see how marvelous they are...he may make up his own mind that the safari park idea is wrong.

[Span]

Good points... thanks very much everyone:D

[Morna]

I agree. Maybe you could get assigned as a chaperone or something for the trip. Let him see how beautiful the animals are, then talk to him about why it's wrong to keep them behind bars. Maybe when you get home, he could write a (polite) letter to the zoo, explaining why he doesn't like how the animals are treated. Kids represent future customers. It could help change things.

[princessemma]

I know the place you are talking about as I too have been there before going vegan. It's terrible about the monkey's and I've not really enjoyed being there since it happened.
Definately explain your feelings to the school because I doubt you are the only parent apposed to these visits, but they will assume everyone is fine with the choice otherwise.
I personally would go too if I were you. As others have said without your input your son will be inundated with the biased information given to him by the staff at the park.
I have a similar problem myself, every year since time began my daughter's play group have gone to a zoo, mainly with monkeys and this year I want to be honest and say why I'm not going but I don't want to upset everyone. I just wish I had the courage to suggest another venu but I don't.