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cog505
Oct 12th, 2005, 09:47 AM
You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again. I would never totally disregard a person's individual experience in favour of a report or a general study. I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts. I think more important is the fact that people don't have to eat meat. I haven't eaten meat since 11 and i've been vegan since 21. I don't eat meat because I don't have to. I think there are far more important considerations to take into account before eating other than the mere selfish.

eve
Oct 12th, 2005, 02:12 PM
I can't think how meat can be good in small amounts - if it is good, why not have it in large amounts? The point surely is that vegans are living proof that humans don't have to eat animal products at all.

cog505
Oct 12th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

think... fat, chocolate, paracetemal, americans,

ConsciousCuisine
Oct 12th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Things are only normally bad in large amounts...

americans

:eek:

puffin
Oct 12th, 2005, 02:37 PM
:eek:
You just beat me to it cc. so :eek: again

cog505
Oct 12th, 2005, 03:28 PM
meaning of course they're nice in small amounts :)

greenworlds
Oct 12th, 2005, 06:21 PM
You know... I've met a lot of ex-veggies who have told me that after years of not eating meat they suddenly felt like they had more energy after eating red meat again.

It might be a little bit like a drug heroin/cocaine etc (at the early stages of taking drugs...when thinking how good the drug is,when semi-enjoying the addiction. It's better when ex_veggies say they want to go back to being veggie.




Sophisticating meat eating doesn't make it any less savage or any more civilized.

Plunder Bunnie
Oct 13th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.:(

Korn
Oct 13th, 2005, 02:20 PM
I think eating meat may be beneficial to some people in small amounts.
What do you mean by 'beneficial'? If you need protein, and eat something with protein, of course eating that protein source is 'beneficial' for that person ie. in a situation where the only alternative was to die, but that's not relevant in a discussion about arguments pro eating animal products, is it?

Elis
Oct 31st, 2005, 04:26 PM
Ok, i see no pro meat eating arguments that override my morals, from where i am right now. Throw me into a natural disaster or other situation where my life is threatened, and to be totatly honest, veganism isnt going to matter. Its for this reason im not attacking people living in impoverished contries for eating meat or drinking water that makes them sick. Its what i would do if we switched places. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with that, seeing as we have the luxory or supermarkets and social assistance programs, while others do not.:(

Oddly enough, I've had several discussions with people who came from such impoverished countries and it was the whole global fairness issue that convinced them I'm not crazy. I told them that I know there are countries where meat is even cheaper than veggies and that don't have refrigerators or supermarkets. If you live in southern Sudan for isntance, you probably need to eat meat because there's little alternative.
But if you live in the industrialized countries then eating meat harms those poorer countries. Just think for a minute about the politics of water rights and how it ties into the meat industry, or how poorer countries always pay for the bulk of our environmental crimes, or even the export business in trash. Somalia for instance, actually does have some international business activity: they buy trash. Not exactly something that makes me hopeful about progress there.
So I've found that this whole North-South gap argument hasn't necesarilly turned anybody else vegan, but it has convinced a few people who recently came to Europe from these countries that it certainly makes sense for a person living here to consume as little animal products as possible. And that even though they came from a cultural background that has absolutely no understanding for veganism. But everyone understands fairness among humans. (now we just have to expand the species categories :))

Kumem
Oct 31st, 2005, 10:23 PM
how do i fight back when someone claims that we need fish oils:mad: to keep us in optimum condition??????

People recommend it for the Omega 3. However, you get this from other oils and supplements, without the contamination of mercury, risk of food poisoning, parasites etc. We need oil, not fish.

John
Oct 31st, 2005, 10:27 PM
Here's something from a random non-vegan site:

"Many times people confuse or don't differentiate between the different omega-3 fats. ONLY ONE of the omega-3 fatty acids is essential (that is ALA), and a healthy body can make the others (DHA and EPA). Fatty fish contains the non-essential omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA. Since the body can make them from ALA, it follows that it is not absolutely necessary to eat fish or take fish oil supplements BUT in all cases it is necessary to get ALA since it is the ESSENTIAL omega-3 fat (best source being flax)."

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/fats-intelligence.php

princessemma
Oct 31st, 2005, 10:58 PM
Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway? :confused:

treehugga
Oct 31st, 2005, 11:54 PM
I wouldn't care if meat offered me numerous health benefits, and I do not believe it does - why because I am so healthy without it, I still couldn't sacrifice a beings life and eat it. And GAWD, I get enough of this argument from meat eaters and am finding it distressing, although I understand others may be interested, so am going to another thread :eek:

treehugga
Nov 1st, 2005, 12:03 AM
The guidelines state we are not to discuss pro meat eating. Sorry to be perdantic :)

thecatspajamas1
Nov 1st, 2005, 08:00 AM
Class: so you don't drink milk?
Me: No, only soy milk.
Class: but you eat fish, right?
Me: no. And when was the last time you saw fish growing on a tree?
Class: but how about cheese?
Me: cheese is made from milk. So, no. I don't eat cheese. Look, I don't eat anything that farts, or anything that comes from anything that farts, or anything that has a face.
Class: hmmmm. But that can't be healthy.
Me: I've not missed a day of class yet, and many of you have because you caught that cold going around. Also, how many of you ride your bikes 100 miles each weekend, and 20 miles a day like I do? Could I really do all that riding if veganism was 'unhealthy?'
Class: (perplexed) ummmh. well, it can't be healthy! (now getting hostile) We need meat! Plus, we like it. And you're weird, professor!
You're a professor? I wish one of MY professors was vegan! What subject do you teach?

Pilaf
Nov 1st, 2005, 08:07 AM
Why is it that argument about fish is often said to veg*ns by people who rarely or never eat fish anyway? :confused:

Well, see...after being approached by several "concerned" family members, I've come to the conclusion that there's actually a handbook for maintaining ignorance about the Standard American Diet indefinately. It's called "I'm comfortable in my ignorance and enjoy giving Vegans a hard time" and it's a guidebook with commonly used "Arguments".

Apparantly, after the Protein, Calcium and B-12 arguments fall flat, Fish Oils are a bit of a desperate last resort for many of the readers of this manual of Omnivores. It is the last in number only, however, as it's the most strictly preached one. My uncle, to whom I've finally convinced a Vegan diet provides adequate nutrition in all areas, STILL says that fish is "essential". Incidentally, he himself consumes very little fish and has a more or less unhealthy diet.

greenworlds
Nov 1st, 2005, 11:59 PM
The pro-meat arguments annoys me as the moral issue has to out-weigh the nutritional value, not that the nutritional value of eating meat out-weighs the nutritional of a vegan diet,When eating sentient beings.

Couldn't it be argued that eating humans has nutritional benefits . I wonder what high nutrients humans have?

Just making a point.

Korn
Dec 5th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Our food habits and eating preferences are governed by taste, more than anything else. We are designed, so to speak, not to eat food that we don't find attractive: which doesn't smell good, taste good or look good, and I think that's just the way it should be. There are millions of people that deep down know that they should switch to a different diet, but still don't do it. I know, because I have been there myself - several times.

In countries where there is a wide selection of vegetarian food (like India), there is also a very high percentage of vegetarians. Indian veggie food is also being eaten by a lot of non-veggies worldwide, because Indian vegetarians know a lot about taste. So I guess the main thing for a person who might consider letting go of animal products, is to help her to realize that the food we eat is at least as tasty as the food she eats.

Look at this (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3060).

Other than taste, I think habits and focus are the main reasons lots of people continue eating animal products. They may know it's not good for them, but they don't focus on it (unless they are forced to, because they get really ill, or meet some people who inspire them).

Many people don't realize that it can be fun/interesting to let go of old habits.

There's one thing I know for sure doesn't have a very positive effect, and that's to make people feel guilty about what they're doing. They may listen and change their eating habits for a while, but in the long run, there's a great chance they're only ending up getting annoyed by whoever it is who makes them feel guilty.

Korn
Dec 5th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Do yuo think that what i said was making her feel guilty? No, I was only thinking in general terms.... :)

Cranberry
Dec 6th, 2005, 02:22 AM
I just had a little talk with my mum while she was in a good mood and wouldnt jump down my throat. our conversation went as follows:

me: have you ever thought about being a vegetarian?
mum: well i was one once and i tried to get you to turn and you were like "no yuk"
me: thats not fair mum im talking about now, why arent you still?
mum: because i gess i like the taste.
me: but i dot understand, you say you care about animals so much, why would you want to contribute to their suffering?
mum: i dont know...
me: it just make me mad when i try to tell you about an incident involving an animal getting hurt and you imediently say "no i cant hear about animsl getting hurt its too cruel" when you are a contributing factor to their pain. how can you eat meat knowing the suffering they endure?
mum: well i gess it makes me feel better to know they are free range chickens and people love and talk to them and its good healthy meat.
me: no no. (shakes head and sighs)
mum: well call me a sinner
me: dont be liek that...i just hope that one day you will change your mind
mum: well maybe i will one day.


what i was wondering is how can i retort with her when she talks about free range chickens...i realised i didnt really know much about it. I didnt have an argument ready, iw as wondering what opinions were of this convo and how i could retort next time. any input would be great cheers:)



Order COKS free vegetarian starter guide. It has a section on the "free range myth" it may help
COK (http://www.cok.net/)

Cranberry
Dec 6th, 2005, 04:24 AM
I should mention it is a small section but still helpful. The booklet is better than PETA's but PETA does offer the free dvd which is good to have on hand.

Let us know how it works out.

greenworlds
Dec 7th, 2005, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=happycow]Do you think that what i said was making her feel guilty? I want to knwo what to say in future, i wouldnt have thought i was putting her through a guilt trip.

It's hard, when reminding people about the animals they are eating without guilt coming into play as ultimately they are guilty of it, theres no way around it. As long as they knows your intentions are meant well.

date 13.12 05
Korn I notice my last few posts are not showing up...have they been moderated or is there another problem?. incidently do you think it's fair to keep someone on moderation for life, just because they brought up a controversial matter and you and some others thought I was a trol and not being serious? I generally don't swear or insult people...do you not think it's time to take me off moderation as I don't think I'm a danger to the site...maybe you could ask other people what they think?

Korn
Dec 13th, 2005, 12:37 AM
http://www.ecologos.org/pix/Health/heartdiseaseisrael.jpg

munchymkr
Dec 13th, 2005, 01:57 AM
If you are willing to remain ignorant and cling to superstitious beliefs then it is possible to create great arguments for eating meat. I listen to my friends and family and coworkers justify eating meat all the time. THey want to believe that they NEED it. This need seems to stop them from looking at the facts that would challenge their choices.

I was convinced spiritually, logically and scientifically that a vegan diet was my best possible choice for quite a while before I actually decided that I was going to make a commitment to change my habits. It was just to easy to keep on doing what I had always done. My health problems were in many ways a blessing. The pain inspired me to change and it gives me a great answer to anyone who confronts me about my choices.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the perfection of the argument that creates the desire to change in people. That perfect argument becomes important and powerful when there is some willingness to be open and listen.