Are there any good arguments PRO eating meat at all?

[Nyx]

My friend who was vegan than went back to vegetarian and had a convo with me about meat went as such:

Friend: I used to believe in the vegetarian argument that meat wasn't meant for us because we can't catch and kill the animals without weapons and more importantly we can't eat raw meat. But then how do you explain that humans invented weapons to kill animals and fire to cook meat. Now we can eat meat.

Me: Does that mean you are going to start eating meat again.

Friend: well I don't think I'll just jump right back into it but I often wonder about going into a Mcdonald's and getting a burger.

Me: *completely irritated and unable to speak out of shock due to the fact that BOTH of us are just too opposing to be right*

I didn't bother with the sentient argument or the fact that vegetarian diets have been proven to be healthier or that we KNOW we hurt animals and don't need to. Because this guy will tell you that all life is pain so simply: whatever.

I had had a convo with him about how Eckhart Tolle explains that when we hurt a person or another being, it triggers more pain and there becomes a "pain body" that general populations get stuck in. This friend of mine simply told me, "Whatever, life is full of pain. Animals kill other animals in the wild all the time". And this just depressed me. I don't know what to say to this because it's true. The only thing I know is that in the wild natural carnivores have a very simple, fast and effective method of killing which is completely different from the enslavement of animals and the slow slitting of their throats.

[Korn]

But then how do you explain that humans invented weapons to kill animals and fire to cook meat. Now we can eat meat.
We may invent weapons and tools for killing humans and animals, but that doesn't mean that we want to, have to, 'should' - or need to do it.


"Whatever, life is full of pain. Animals kill other animals in the wild all the time". And this just depressed me. I don't know what to say to this because it's true.
Some animals kill some other animals, but those are animals that don't have way to survive without killing others. We have that opportunity. Plus, if we actually should copy another species and their diet, why choose to copy meat eating - and not plant eating - animals?

The animals that are most common here don't eat other animals. Cow's don't, sheep don't , pigs don't, horses, deer, elephants.... I don't get the idea that we should look at some animals that have to kill to survive and then do the same thing. We are not them, and there's no valid reason whatsoever to copy what they do. They don't copy our lifestyle/diet either...

[harpy]

This friend of mine simply told me, "Whatever, life is full of pain. Animals kill other animals in the wild all the time".

Yes, but even so if your friend was an animal that might either get killed or else be left alone, I bet I know which he'd choose! Just because we can't prevent all pain/killing doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent as much as we can.

It's easy to get discouraged if you start thinking along those lines though, maybe your friend needs cheering up!

[Nyx]

Korn:

Can I take you with me to his house!? :p We'll all have a nice chat! Heehee


Harpy: Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. In fact I was thinking that with both of you.

I think his point was not just on vegetarianism but rather on life itself with humans hurting other humans and how this "painbody" (a collective depression amongst a population) has nothing to do with what we're doing to each other but rather that it's just the way life is. My argument to that would be:

Humans are the ones who make decisions to brutalize each other, themselves, the planet and other animals and then in turn become depressed, enraged, (insert psychological mishap here). Animals don't. You don't see animals in the African Savannah collectively depressed because there is so much killing going on. (let's minus elephants who are amazingly brilliant and compassionate....and dolphins too :o).

War, disease, famine, etc, creates psychological trauma and discomfort which is almost like a virus. For example the second world war bringing pain and suffering to the next generation of people affected.

Does that make any sense?

I think it's just that I looked up to this guy too much and thought he was so intelligent and so he just made me look at my life and think what I was doing and feeling was somehow "stupid" or "misinformed". I had the guts to stand up to him but deep inside I wondered if I was really right. I'm working on improving my self esteem though.;)

[harpy]

As you say, humans make decisions, and each time an individual decides not to do harm we can make the world a bit better. (Not killing animals for food seems like a no-brainer; WWII is a bit more complicated because arguably some harm was done to prevent a greater harm.)

Please don't let your friend suck you into his way of thinking because if you get downhearted then it becomes harder to make more compassionate decisions.

[Jane M]

I found this video on You Tube a while back. While it doesn't address why people would want to eat meat (except for a serious lack of good information) it does address the harms of eating meat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD67tltFyAw

[Nyx]

Thanks Harpy. <3

Jane M - amazingly cute avatar! *dies*
I'll check out that vid!

[Fuhzy]

Free range, grass fed beef is actually not terrible for the environment. That's the best argument I have seen so far.

Also if you live in a country where it's impossible to live vegan (some Asian countries, most African countries).

Otherwise it's taste and vanity.

[Korn]

Impossible to live as a vegan in some Asian and most African countries? Never heard that one before. Which countries would that be? Please elaborate... :)


Free range, grass fed beef is actually not terrible for the environment. Just the water and electricity consumption involved in beef production - and the very existence of hundreds of millions of 'extra' kettle raised only because people happen to like beef and milk is bad for the environment. Even in a small country like Norway, there are hundreds of thousand of cow's - an animal that historically is imported to this country, and which wouldn't survive a year without humans.

[fiamma]

This friend of mine simply told me, "Whatever, life is full of pain."

Buddhists say "Life is nothing but suffering and pain". Perhaps that's why they eat meat... :(


"Animals kill other animals in the wild all the time". And this just depressed me. I don't know what to say to this because it's true.

It is true that carnivores in the wild eat meat. Doesn't mean that we have to kill billions of animals in factory farms. Or eat animals or exploit them for their produce in any way. In fact we as society and the environment would be much better off if we didn't.

[thesongbird]

Even if cattle are raised organically, which I grew up around, it is still harmful to enviroment. Organic meat is less harmful, but not good for the enviroment. Most of the grain grown in the US is grown for the express purpose of feeding it to animals raised for human consumption. Then we have to so ship it in huge gas-hog Mac trucks all over to deliver it. The energy required to butcher, package, keep it cool during transit, in the store, etc. The energy used to grow the grains is insane, not to mention we could actually use those feilds to grow food, for say, starving children.

Eating meat, esp. in the large qauntities most "civilized" countries consume is horrible for the enviroment. However the foremost concern to me is a selfish one, eating meat is bad for humans. The obscene amount of meat the US consumes directly contributes to obesity, diabetes, and heart diesease.

There is also no nutritional reason to eat meat. People will tell you that protien, b vit. and iron needs cannot be met with a vegan diet. This is not true, for example black beans have 4x the amount of iron as beef. Beans, lentils, spinach, nuts, etc. are plentiful in iron or protien.

So here is how I see it, veganism helps the animals, the environment, and humans. Everybody wins! Yeah, I like winning.

[Nyx]

Fiamma: SO TRUE!

Thesongbird: My omni brother once said it's just impossible to use all that land to grow anything but animal feed because the only things that can grow there are hard, inedible grains.

Does anyone believe this to be true? I can totally see his argument. I'm not defending meat eating, just saying. I'm also positive that people in the West are not going to actually grow crops and crops of food and export it over to poor countries. Although they already do this, I highly doubt anyone would give away food from THAT many crops (all the would be cattle ones).

[sandra]

Thesongbird: My omni brother once said it's just impossible to use all that land to grow anything but animal feed because the only things that can grow there are hard, inedible grains.


The grain obviously isn't THAT inedible when the cattle can eat it! If the cattle can eat the grain then humans can eat it too! :)

[Nyx]

Hmm I can see where you're getting at Sandra, but what about the four stomach processing system?

We definitely are different from cows. (again not trying to offend, just trying to work it all out with you guys :) )

[sandra]

The four stomach system is for eating grass not grain!
I just think the idea that ALL the land would be of no good for growing grain is silly.
The fact is there is enough land to grow grain to feed humans, your brother is just being pedantic! :)

[Nyx]

Hmm good point Sandra. Plus as long as we work with the soil properly, we should be able to create fertile ground for even nicer grains :)

[cobweb]

surely most grains are indigestible anyway unless they are processed in some way, eg soaked/boiled/sprouted but i think they'll grow in fairly poor soil so i can't see a problem.

[veganvic82]

This is a bit off topic, but i'll mention it here anyway.... a guy at work told me that he believed it was ok to eat meat because "God only created animals to benefit mankind" which meant he could eat & exploit animals all he liked without having to feel guilty about it.....

I'm an atheist so his reasoning for eating meat really bothered me. I don't think there are any valid arguments for eating meat, especially the 'god' argument.

[Quantum Mechanic]

Yeah, it's like I posted in another thread, that I think a main reason why people don't get overly bothered by what goes on to kill the animals, is that they have this idea ingrained that animals have a "purpose" that is "for" humans, or that animals "give their lives/milk/eggs/etc." (as if they do this willingly), sometimes using religion as part of that justification.

[Nyx]

Cobweb: True. Also some grains can grow in REALLY crappy conditions.

*I also don't agree with all this God talk. When I first met my partner, he talked about how animals are just food, just like any plant. Nothing more, nothing less. We got into so many arguments and I cried a lot over it. Over time he has been switching to vegetarianism. He was never muslim per se, but he was born with heavily muslim parents so the thought was still ingrained in him despite his belief there is no God. This is also seen throughout the West very heavily in non-christian white families. You may not come from a christian family, but here Christianity is deeply ingrained in society itself.

*Edit, and not even in just WHITE families, but all races born and raised here.

[horselesspaul]

Animals are all w@nkers.

[veganvic82]

Animals are all w@nkers.

That one obviously came from an extremely intelligent person...geez:hmm:

[Buddha Belly]

Animals are all w@nkers.

How do ducks....... you know....... do they lift one foot and balance very unsteadily? Or is it a social thing?

[horselesspaul]

That one obviously came from an extremely intelligent person...geez:hmm:
I made it up, due to the total lack of any other cogent argument existing.


How do ducks....... you know....... do they lift one foot and balance very unsteadily? Or is it a social thing?
Hahaha. They're big on mutual bill jobs, I hear.

[Digital Ghost]

if you live in a country where it's impossible to live vegan (some Asian countries, most African countries).

:umm_ani:

I don't want to start an argument........but I have been to almost all of Asia (as a vegan) and never had a problem - sure some places didn't have fancy vegan ice cream but I always found things I liked to eat easy enough.

In Africa I found it quite surprising the vegan friendly cafes/restaurants that people would tell you about and direct you to when you explained to them you were vegan. They may not be on the forum (yet) but there are definitely vegans in Africa. :thumbsup: