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Cal
Mar 26th, 2005, 04:32 AM
Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine.

I would ask you what will happen to those hens when they no longer lay eggs? What happened to the brothers of those hens when they hatched? These are the questions most people don't ask. :(

Kelzie
Mar 26th, 2005, 05:16 AM
I understand where you are coming from Cal. Really I do. But these were Amish people. They don't suffocate the male hens like they egg factories do. The hens they had were most likely the umpteenth generation that they had raised. And the hens were running around wild. I really doubt they can keep track of which chicken is no longer laying eggs. I'm not defending eating eggs by any means. In most cases I think it is horrible. But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.

eve
Mar 26th, 2005, 06:50 AM
... I'm not defending eating eggs by any means. In most cases I think it is horrible. But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.
In my view, we don't refrain from eating eggs and we don't boycott the meat and dairy industries etc - just to follow a definition. As vegans we do not eat animal products as a matter of principle based upon compassion for living beings. If someone questions you, it is simple enough to say that "as a vegan I don't consume animals or animal products". After that any problem raised is theirs. :)

Kelzie
Mar 26th, 2005, 06:56 AM
But the problem I had is that the reason I don't consume animals or animal products is that I don't think it's ethical to cause animals pain for small amount of enjoyment on the human's part. But if the animal isn't suffering at all, all that leaves me with is a definition of veganism...and then I'm confused.

eve
Mar 26th, 2005, 07:20 AM
There's another problem Kelzie - how do you know the animal isn't suffering? Do you know what they think when they've laid an egg, and you go and take it away to eat?

Korn
Mar 26th, 2005, 07:43 AM
"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?"--Jeremy Bentham
I'm sure you wouldn't be OK with someone killing you with an overdose of sleeping pills, even if you wouldn't suffer.



But if the animal isn't suffering at all, all that leaves me with is a definition of veganism...and then I'm confused.

We discuss that topic in this thread:


Veganism isn't only about not causing physical pain/suffering. (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2768)

Korn
Mar 26th, 2005, 07:46 AM
In most cases I think it is horrible.

There is a thread about eggs here. (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=42788#post42788)




*But for me, in that circumstance, not eating eggs just because I wanted to follow the definition of vegan would have been wrong.
I agree, and I think everybody does, vegan or not... ;)

Mr Pearcore
Mar 27th, 2005, 06:24 AM
most likely...doubt

Youre not certain. Therefore I dont see how you can do it.

And I dont live by the definition of "vegan". The term vegan is used to describe my lifestyle. Not the other way around.

Ps - you say you dont live by the definition of vegan, yet you still call yourself a vegan. Why call yourself that then if you dont agree with the label or term?

Mr Pearcore
Mar 27th, 2005, 06:31 AM
Like I said, different people have different reasons for being vegan. Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fine. I was just saying that we shouldn't base our choices on some definition. If there's no belief behind it, the definition's worthless.

If you are a vegan, your beliefs should define the definition, otherwise, why do it?

Plus, Im sure kids in sweatshops earning 50 cents an hour are grateful for the little money they earn too, doesnt make it right to exploit them.

Morality has to come into play somewhere along the line.

Kelzie
Mar 27th, 2005, 06:41 AM
Youre not certain. Therefore I dont see how you can do it.

And I dont live by the definition of "vegan". The term vegan is used to describe my lifestyle. Not the other way around.

Ps - you say you dont live by the definition of vegan, yet you still call yourself a vegan. Why call yourself that then if you dont agree with the label or term?

I never said I don't *live* by the definition of vegan. I do agree with the label and terms, which is why I call myself a vegan. Or maybe because it would be slightly long-winded to say I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believe-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner. :rolleyes: I think people might get a little bored. And if I was not certain I wouldn't have eaten them. The entire point, which I evidently have not made clear, is that a person shouldn't do something vegan *just* because vegans do it. If you don't have belief behind it, it's worthless. I did not, and do not believe I was harming those chickens. So instead of following a definition that I didn't believe, I ate a couple eggs. Do I believe that 99.9% of the time it is unethical to eat eggs? Yes I do.

I KNOW vegans don't eat eggs and I'm sorry Korn, and all others who had to read this, I know there are a lot of other threads dedicated to the "egg question" . And I have read them. I was just trying to defend believing in the definition before you follow it.

Kelzie
Mar 27th, 2005, 06:54 AM
If you are a vegan, your beliefs should define the definition, otherwise, why do it?

Plus, Im sure kids in sweatshops earning 50 cents an hour are grateful for the little money they earn too, doesnt make it right to exploit them.

Morality has to come into play somewhere along the line.

1. The definition of veganism exists independent of what my beliefs are.

2. I really don't think the exploitation of children in sweatshops can be compared to eating an egg from a chicken that was raised humanely. The comparison I like better is that someone decides that the hair that I lose natuarally everyday has some value for them. Do I really care if they come into my house when I'm gone and take some hairs from my pillow? Hey, if that's what floats their boat, they are welcome to it.

3. Obviously morality is important. That is why I don't eat eggs from the grocery store. Because I don't believe they were obtained in a moral way.

I'm really tired of debating the egg issue, not because I believe that I acted wrongly, but because I think it has been done to death. Anything that I or you say has been said else where. So in the interest of keeping the threads on track, let's return the discussion to the definition of veganism.

Korn
Mar 27th, 2005, 07:06 AM
So in the interest of keeping the threads on track, let's return the discussion to the definition of veganism. OK. :)
Do you agree that it's not a question only about *not* causing physical pain/suffering?

foxytina_69
Mar 27th, 2005, 07:09 AM
i believe everybody lives up to their own defenition of veganism. i think its great if people can be vegan, up to their own personal standards. as long as it helps animals from suffering. and really i think the defenition of a vegan is definitely widespread amongst individuals, depending on the reasoning behind why that one person is vegan.

Kelzie
Mar 27th, 2005, 07:19 AM
Of course it can't just be about avoiding pain and suffering. Like you said early, if someone couldn't feel pain, that still does not mean you can kill them. I have no qualms about the definition of veganism. I think it perfectly conveys...oh I don't know. I'm sorry I ate eggs, okay? I'm really sorry. I mean, obviously I should be apologizing to the chickens and not you guys, but they're in Illinois, and you can read what I'm writing... :( I'm just, I'm new to veganism, and no that's not an excuse, and I'm not THAT new, I just started to minimize pain and suffering, and my thinking should have evolved to include non-exploitation, but I didn't read any of the egg threads before my sister took me to that stupid farm, and what she said seemed to make sense. And so I'm sorry. I started posting on this thread thinking that what I did was ethical, and kept typing because I *hate* to be wrong, and now I feel like an idiot. Forgive me? :o

snivelingchild
Mar 27th, 2005, 07:31 AM
Wow, I am impressed at your swallowing of your pride. Most people are much more stubborn about not wanting to be wrong. I'm happy to see you were open-minded enough about to reconsider your opinion.
We're all wrong at some point. No need to feel embarassed.

John
Mar 27th, 2005, 09:06 PM
No hard feelings, Kelzie.

Mr Pearcore
Mar 28th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Well I was going to reply to Kelzie, until I read he/she has come to their senses and seen the light. So theres no need to now. Thats good.

Kelzie
Mar 28th, 2005, 03:05 AM
Thanks for forgiving me guys :) Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded... :D

Kimberly
May 9th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Old topic now, but my question with all this Kelzie-egg-issue is why would your sister take it upon herself to go find a place like that anyway to get you to eat eggs? Why is it so important to her that you eat them or did you want them that badly that you said something like, "Oh, if only they didn't suffer?" Just confuzzled, that's all. :D

ConsciousCuisine
May 9th, 2005, 04:20 PM
1. The definition of veganism exists independent of what my beliefs are.

2. I really don't think the exploitation of children in sweatshops can be compared to eating an egg from a chicken that was raised humanely. T

3. Obviously morality is important. That is why I don't eat eggs from the grocery store. Because I don't believe they were obtained in a moral way.




The issue here, as I see it, is that vegans don't believe that there IS a "moral" way to obtain eggs or other animal products for our own use and that taking from animals, using them or thier secretions for our own purposes is necessary or acceptable.

Is taking/eating eggs from Amish-raised chickens better than factory-farmed ones? Certainly! Is it a VEGAN practice? No. Vegans don't use animals or thier products (where they could be avoided). The vasy majority of us here have a choice as to what foods we eat and products we buy/use/support. To choose non-vegan when vegan is available is NOT a VEGAN practice.

I am not speaking of children whose parents won't buy them cruely-free home/body products or of people who feel they require medications that have no vegan alternatives. I am making reference to people who willingly choose to eat cake at a party when it's not necessary for human survival or who don't ask the waitress what's in the mashed potatoes...I am sure you all get my drift...

ConsciousCuisine
May 9th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Thanks for forgiving me guys :) Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded... :D


Are you vegan today? Are your choices consistent with vegan values? Only you can decide that for yourself.

Don't beat yourself up about it (or anything else, for that matter). Just do your best and when you learn more, do better and when you slip up, jump right back in line with vegan values!

:)

Kelzie
May 10th, 2005, 07:51 AM
Old topic now, but my question with all this Kelzie-egg-issue is why would your sister take it upon herself to go find a place like that anyway to get you to eat eggs? Why is it so important to her that you eat them or did you want them that badly that you said something like, "Oh, if only they didn't suffer?" Just confuzzled, that's all. :D

Who knows? :rolleyes: She's two years younger, so I try not to pay attention to her much. She struggling with becoming a vegan herself (at least she says she is...once again she's still a teenager, and a little capricious). So maybe she was exploring the morality of eggs like I was. Although I'm really doubting her new found veganism...she says she'll start once she gets rid of all the meat in the freezer. Blech. Wasn't quite the mind set I had when I became a vegan. (*not judging...I'm not judging...* :D )


The issue here, as I see it, is that vegans don't believe that there IS a "moral" way to obtain eggs or other animal products for our own use and that taking from animals, using them or thier secretions for our own purposes is necessary or acceptable.

Is taking/eating eggs from Amish-raised chickens better than factory-farmed ones? Certainly! Is it a VEGAN practice? No. Vegans don't use animals or thier products (where they could be avoided). The vasy majority of us here have a choice as to what foods we eat and products we buy/use/support. To choose non-vegan when vegan is available is NOT a VEGAN practice.

I am not speaking of children whose parents won't buy them cruely-free home/body products or of people who feel they require medications that have no vegan alternatives. I am making reference to people who willingly choose to eat cake at a party when it's not necessary for human survival or who don't ask the waitress what's in the mashed potatoes...I am sure you all get my drift...

I just..okay you're going to get me confused again. Do you have to think it's wrong to use animals to be a vegan? I mean obviously that has to be a part of it, but a lot of vegans are a-okay with guide dogs (I know, I know there's another thread about it), which is blatant, out-right using another creature so you can get around. And the whole "they enjoy it" is a load of phoey. Has anybody asked these guide dogs if they want to be trained from puppy-hood to lead another person around for the rest of their lives. Even if the dogs could care less, it would still be using them. Just like chickens.

And I am still a vegan, and still loving it :D

eve
May 10th, 2005, 07:56 AM
kelzie, can't you simply live a vegan lifestyle without looking at what others are doing? eg guide dogs (which you linked to chickens). Forget what others do, simply do the right thing yourself. :)

Kelzie
May 10th, 2005, 08:05 AM
I am certainly not living a vegan lifestyle for anyone else. I spent my first four months as a vegan withouy even talking to another vegan. I was under the impression however, that coming to a forum on veganism might help me answer some of the questions I have (ie. the morality of eating chicken eggs vs. guide dogs). Evidently though, questioning is somehow linked to "looking at what others are doing" I am looking at what other people are doing because I am trying to understand why they are doing it. Hence, the questions. After all, psychologists do it all the time :D

Realfood Mary
Jun 7th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Thanks for forgiving me guys :) Ummm...so can I still call myself a vegan? Cause I really like it here and all, and my aforementioned : "I'm-a-vegan-except-for-thursday-march-27-of-05-when-I-ate-eggs-that-I-believed-were-raised-in-an-ethical-manner" really is a *little* longwinded... :D

I know this is nothing to do with the issue, but that kid looks the spitting image of my son Sťamus! Cheeky grin and everything. Now you are going to tell me the child is a girl... :o

Mary