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Korn
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:30 PM
PETA, but I am not referring to the usual reasons people quote.

This new site of theirs really bothers me:
http://www.peta.org/accidentallyVegan/default.asp


Poor PETA :).

I don't really want to discuss PETA, but MANY vegan authorities are known for not focusing on the bad side effects of cooking, freezing, canning, amalgam, microwave owens. lack of organic food, soil depleted for nutrients or water with chlorine. But when PETA makes a 'I can't believe it's vegan'-page, they get pepper. We should have such a thread here too, because there are people approaching veganism from all walks of life, and I think it would help many if they understood that a lot of what they eat already are made of plants. But I do agree - junk food is junk.

Maybe some will continue longer, but I don't think people will start eating junk because of PETA's site. Once they know more about veganism, they'll hopefully switch to a more natural lifestyle (unless they just continue an unnatural lifestyle accompanied by supplements and therefore 'feel safe'.)

I agree that it would be a good idea if PETA would focus more on the (internal and external) environment. On nature. Unfortunately, if you look around, vert few 'vegan experts' focus on this. Many seem to have given up (or are not interested themselves), and have a more or less hidden 'just-keep-eating-your-junk-but-take-some-pills-with-it' attitude. That is dangerous.

veganmike
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:39 PM
Of course. But if people don't even want to give it a try because it seems unnatural and requires a lot of supplements... then what?

But what if veganism IS unnatural? You're going to deny it and hide this fact from would-be vegans?


I prefer to talk about how to improve things, and try to avoid personal attacks on people I disagree with. If we shall discuss this further, I'd like to know if you agree that veganism is based on respect for life, and as such represents the total opposite viewpoint than the philosophy of one who is OK with killing animals? We are against killing, aren't we? If you look at sites that promote the quasi/anti-vegan 'humane slaughtering'-ideas, do we agree that they harm the vegan movement? If you are a vegan and sends people to a site that recommends (and makes money on) selling books by people who defends killing animals and 'humane' slaughtering, do you agree that you actually, indirectly, promote a site that represents the opposite of veganism.

If Singer defends 'humane' killing, why would he have any problems against using animal products (in shoes, household products etc) that vegans are known to avoid?

You ackowledge the fact that if you don't know someone's books you can discuss this person's ideas, yet you still insist on discussing them. Why would he have any problems against using animal products that vegans are known to avoid? Becuase for the most part they are a product of suffering. He's an utilitarian, that means he believes that suffering is bad, and happiness is good.


Isn't it quote clear that anyone who is basing his philosophy (or internet site) on the opposite of what veganism represents, is harming, or as someone else called it in another thread, 'watering out' veganism?

Please visit www.veganoutreach.com and tell us where they are opposed to what veganism represents. But yes, they do "water down" veganism to make it more accessible for mainstream. They believe it will reduce suffering of animals.

veganmike
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:43 PM
In real life, if you keep recommending his sites (and I have noticed that people who recommend Norris' sites tend to do it continously), you actually support not only part of what he represents, but 'the whole thing'.

Not necessarily.


Please tell more...

See works by prof. Gary Francione to find out why people object to Singer's philosophy of reducing suffering and his vision of animal protection movement.

Korn
Aug 19th, 2004, 02:58 PM
But what if veganism IS unnatural? You're going to deny it and hide this fact from would-be vegans?

Of course not. I know you have criticized me earlier for trying to hard to making veganism look natural, and I know you mean that humans are 'natural omnivores', but that's at least material for two other threads.


You ackowledge the fact that if you don't know someone's books you can discuss this person's ideas, yet you still insist on discussing them..

Not at all. I don't discuss Singer's ideas, I discuss the fact that some people water out and harm the vegan movement by including killing an eating animals as an option for 'vegans'.



Why would he have any problems against using animal products that vegans are known to avoid? Because for the most part they are a product of suffering. He's an utilitarian, that means he believes that suffering is bad, and happiness is good.
Do you think he would be OK with using a leather jacket from a happy animal that was slaughtered in a 'humane' way? Veganism is NOT about only using leather or meat or milk from animals that was killed or who lived a certain way.


Please visit www.veganoutreach.com and tell us where they are opposed to what veganism represents.

You just can't help linking to them yet another time, can you? ;)


But yes, they do "water down" veganism to make it more accessible for mainstream.

I just heard about a bar who was accused for watering out their beer with water. I don't drink beer, but if I liked Heineken, I wanted Heineken, and not Heineken with water. If someone waters out anything, to make it more accessible, they don't make 'the real thing' more accessible, they make the watered out version more accessible. If Heineken tastes good, and beer drinkers only gets a watered out version, maybe in the long run Heineken will lose popularity, and maybe lots of people will never get to know it's taste.

If someone wants to make a lifestyle (or anything else) more accessible by changing it, they should call it something else than the original.

Korn
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:16 PM
In real life, if you keep recommending his sites (and I have noticed that people who recommend Norris' sites tend to do it continously), you actually support not only part of what he represents, but 'the whole thing'.

Not necessarily.

Oh yes. I know you are on an overdose of B12 :D, but try to concentrate now, OK? :D

Let's say that you have (at least) two choices.

1) You can create or refer to sites/articles that's got what you consider important health information for vegans, but which also waters out veganism and/or makes it look like you can be a vegan and still be OK with eating meat or killing animals, for example by promoting or selling books by people who state this.

2) You can create or refer to sites/articles that's got the same health information for vegans, but that does NOT water out veganism and/or makes it look like you can be a vegan and still be OK with eating meat or killing animals, for example by promoting or selling books bt people who state this.

If you recommend A, don't you also risk that newbies will be exposed to (and follow) even more anti-vegan ideas than if you recommend B? Not only that, but they will be exposed to anti-vegan propaganda in the name of veganism? If they follow your recommendations, they probably trust you, and if they trust you, they think you agree in what you present to them.

beforewisdom
Aug 19th, 2004, 03:28 PM
Of course. But if people don't even want to give it a try because it seems unnatural and requires a lot of supplements... then what?


It doesn't. Vitamin b-12 and D are two supplements. I wouldn't call two "a lot of supplements". Other things veg*ns are told to watch are things omni's also have to watch. Many people are ignorant of nutrtion and do not know this.

I think what you have to say brings up an excellent hidden point in that Norris needs to refine his writing style to be positive and simple while getting his point across. It is too easy for people to get the wrong impression.




I prefer to talk about how to improve things, and try to avoid personal attacks on people I disagree with.


Great. I agree.

There is a lot of lousy vegan health out there. That needs to change both for the sake of the movement and for compassion for vegans.

The way to improve that is to actually tell people what they need to know.

I am helping a co-worker convert to vegetarianism. I have been reviewing the various "starter kits" out there for her sake and I've only found vegan outreach even coming close to advising people on how to do a vegan diet right.

Other vegan's are addressing this issue by writing books and speaking at lectures, but I think Norris/vegan outreach is alone in disseminating this information in a brief, free, easy to access venue........which I think is needed. It is very hard to get someone to go to a lecture, buy a video, or read an entire book.

Again, I think Norris needs to refine his writing style



If we shall discuss this further, I'd like to know if you agree that veganism is based on respect for life, and as such represents the total opposite viewpoint than the philosophy of one who is OK with killing animals?


I don't mean any offense, but I think you are cutting yourself off from options and ideas by framing your views in this way.

I don't believe in killing unless it is necessary, and I think 99.9% of the time it is not necessary.




From http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/v/ve/vegan.html:


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Korn
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:07 PM
It doesn't. Vitamin b-12 and D are two supplements. I wouldn't call two "a lot of supplements".
I consider recommending 10 mcg daily (which is approx. 4 times as much as most countries in the world recommended for pregnant or lactating women) alone a lot of supplements. Stephen Walsh recommend vegans to take 6 nutrients on a regular basis. (For the records, in Norway, where I'm from, you can't even buy a 10 mcg B12 pill without a doctors prescription.)



Other things veg*ns are told to watch are things omni's also have to watch. Many people are ignorant of nutrtion and do not know this. True, and many sites focus too little on this.


The way to improve that is to actually tell people what they need to know. Sure, but how many 'vegan experts' focus on all the B12 reducing elements in our lives, compared with how much they focus on recommending supplements?


I have been reviewing the various "starter kits" out there for her sake and I've only found vegan outreach even coming close to advising people on how to do a vegan diet right.
Well, Steve, it might be time to create you own then :).

The good thing about Norris' site, is that it's clear, lots of tables etc. This looks convincing at first, but the tables are unfortunately filled with a rather biased 'version of the truth'. Please look again, and compare with other sources that cover the whole spectrum of what you have to take into consideration regarding ie. the B12 issue.

When most people wake up in the morning they brush their teeth (fluor in toothpaste is reducing B12), drink coffee (in itself reducing B12) or water (chlorine in water is reducing B12). The heat from the coffee makes the amalgam (which in itself is reducing B12) more easy absorbable by their bodies. They might eat something with sugar in (B12 is reducing B12). Some people take a cigarette (reducing B12), some women take oral contraceptives, many people use deodorants (of which some contain chemicals that reducing B12). All the water used for making coffee is brought to the house in copper tubes (they reduce B12). And that's just breakfast!

Look at some of the main vegan sites out there again. Most of them don't challenge the way you live. They might know that our lifestyles kill natural bacteria and B12, but they often prefer the 'symptom-treating'-way of looking at things, not to remove causes. The easy way out, but maybe not so easy in the long run? If we continue to allow ourselves to live 'anti-vegetus'-lives, what will happen to ourselves and our environment after some years? Simply consuming more B12 is not a good solution!

beforewisdom
Aug 19th, 2004, 04:52 PM
I consider recommending 10 mcg daily (which is approx. 4 times as much as most countries in the world recommended for pregnant or lactating women) alone a lot of supplements.


I am going to have to disagree with you. I have read from a variety of authorities, not just Norris, that absorption of vitamin b-12 can vary a lot.
Given the severity of deficiency, the cheapness of the supplements, and that it cannot be overdosed on I am with the "safe rather then sorry" mindset in recommending a dose that covers everyone in a large general group.



Stephen Walsh recommend vegans to take 6 nutrients on a regular basis. (For the records, in Norway, where I'm from, you can't even buy a 10 mcg B12 pill without a doctors prescription.)


I am going to pass on commenting upon this as I have only read the Jack Norris articles on veganhealth.org. For what it is worth, the doctors at Summerfest highly emphasized getting nutrtion from food, rather then supplements with b-12 being the lone exception.




Sure, but how many 'vegan experts' focus on all the B12 reducing elements in our lives, compared with how much they focus on recommending supplements?


I think that is the result of being practical.

Reliable natural vegan food sources of vitamin b-12 just don't exist right now.
( I don't believe the sources listed in the other thread are true sources....but that is another argument).

When I became a vegetarian 26 years ago I could still buy tempeh with live cultures and b-12. I live in a very veg friendly metropolitan area and I can't do that anymore.

An emphasis on sanitation in food production has eliminated natural vegan food sources of b-12. This may be a good thing as those sanitation practices prevent harmful pathogens like E Coli. However, lets say this is not the case. How practical would it be to get the big food producers to change their methods?

That would require a certain amount of activism.....time, money, and energy.....and the existing AR groups aren't even giving people a "good nutrition heads up" on their sites.

In the meantime a need for b-12 exists. Supplements and fortiefied foods are the practical options in the right now.





Well, Steve, it might be time to create you own then :).


I am going to augment my personal web stie to this end, but I do not believe in reinventing the wheel. I think COK and VeganOutreach have a good start.
I am going to contact them in a diplomatic way and try to get them to polish their writing.



The good thing about Norris' site, is that it's clear, lots of tables etc. This looks convincing at first, but the tables are unfortunately filled with a rather biased 'version of the truth'. Please look again, and compare with other sources that cover the whole spectrum of what you have to take into consideration regarding ie. the B12 issue.


I have. At least a 1/2 dozen other trustworthy sources I have consulted ( before I ever heard of Norris) all believe that b-12 supplements and fortified foods are the only reliable sources. I am just going to have to disagree with you on this point.



When most people wake up in the morning they brush their teeth (fluor in toothpaste is reducing B12), drink coffee (in itself reducing B12) or water (chlorine in water is reducing B12). The heat from the coffee makes the amalgam (which in itself is reducing B12) more easy absorbable by their bodies. They might eat something with sugar in (B12 is reducing B12). Some people take a cigarette (reducing B12), some women take oral contraceptives, many people use deodorants (of which some contain chemicals that reducing B12). All the water used for making coffee is brought to the house in copper tubes (they reduce B12). And that's just breakfast!


Very interesting!

I will have to disagree with you on toothpaste. Like food sanitation I think it does more good then harm to have fluoride in toothpaste. Ditto for water purification.

You can get some people to reduce coffe use, sugar, cigarrettes, contraceptives, and deodorant but I don't think you will get many.

I do think what you quoted above is valuable information that should be put on AR and veg*n nutrition sites. Even if such things are not acceptable to people who want to be vegans people should know.

Korn
Aug 19th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Given the severity of deficiency, the cheapness of the supplements, and that it cannot be overdosed on I am with the "safe rather then sorry" mindset .

So you think you are safe if you eat 10 mcg daily? Depending on a lot of things, that might not be safe at all.
By the way, I don't think the price of B12, that you have mentioned often here an on other sites, really is an issue here. Regarding the severity of B12 deficiency (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161) and problems associated with high levels of B12 (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169), let's discuss that in other threads, OK? :)


Reliable natural vegan food sources of vitamin b-12 just don't exist right now. A little comment on the word 'reliable': with the condition the vegan movement, or, the sad part of it, is in today, and because many of the people who are in the position to initiate studies on B12 in water, food and plants spend most of their time convincing their fellow vegans that they need pills, we won't know much more about reliable or not until someone else, outside the vegan movements, studies this.



( I don't believe the sources listed in the other thread are true sources....but that is another argument). Which thread?


When I became a vegetarian 26 years ago I could still buy tempeh with live cultures and b-12. I live in a very veg friendly metropolitan area and I can't do that anymore. The problem with tempeh is that the trueB12 levels in tempeh is dependent on a lot of things. The macrobiotic community discussed this a lot around 1970, but most of them blindly trusted that tempeh, miso and tamari contained B12, without really knowing.


An emphasis on sanitation in food production has eliminated natural vegan food sources of b-12. This may be a good thing as those sanitation practices prevent harmful pathogens like E Coli. However, lets say this is not the case. How practical would it be to get the big food producers to change their methods?
We might misunderstand each other a little here, as we talk about many topics simultanously now... :) Practical or not, my main point is that there are many potential vegans out there (lacto-vegetarians, for example) that have got resistance against veganism because they feel that it can't be natural to eat vegan food since vegans are so obsessed with supplements (without really explainging why). So right now, since we talk about harming the vegan movement, it's important to distinguish between a) should i take B'12 or not and b) why do (some/many/few) vegans recommend B12?


Supplements and fortiefied foods are the practical options in the right now. Have you noticed how many vegans who believe that multivitaminsns that contain B12 are 'safe'? Have you noticed how many vegans that don't know that fortified food also contain 'passive' B12 analogues? How many vegans are aware that an intake of a mix of true B12 and B12 analogues are 'normal'? Some sites (many of them rely on a few/the same sources) present really biased or one-dimensional B12 'facts', like 'if something contains B12 analogs (and plants do), it is useless'. I believed the same myself a while ago.


I am going to contact them in a diplomatic way and try to get them to polish their writing. With all due respect, I don't think this is a question of polishing. :)


At least a 1/2 dozen other trustworthy sources I have consulted (before I ever heard of Norris) all believe that b-12 supplements and fortified foods are the only reliable sources. There are much more than half a dozen, and for simplicity (and thanks to some guys who constantly post links to Jack Norris B12 article, no names mentioned :) ) there will many more. But I hope you understand that that's not what (at least I) consider the main point here/now.


I will have to disagree with you on toothpaste. Like food sanitation I think it does more good then harm to have fluoride in toothpaste. Dear beforewisdom, you can't disagree with me on toothpaste, because I haven't even said what I mean about it in public (yet). I'm just saying that putting toothpaste in your mouth (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222) after (or even worse, before) breakfast, might kill B12 that is produced in your mouth while you were sleeping. I used toothpaste as an example, in a comment to our B12 killing lifestyle, with the earlier mentioned breakfast as an example (which by the way, probably wasn't organic (= less B12). I'm not even saying that you or someone else shouldn't eat B12. If you want to use toothpaste that might kill B12 and chew B12 to compensate for this, that's up to you. What I'm saying are basically two things:

1) There are so many B12 reducing elements in our lives, and based on how much they reduce the B12 levels in humans and plants, it's mor ethan likely that we would have great B12 levels if we were to live a more natural life (which might or might not be possible in today's society, but that's another thread).
2) Some major sites gives special attention to B12 (which is fine, and important), but they do it in a way that harms the vegan movement, by making it look like it is the vegan lifestyle there is something wrong with, and not ho we live, constantly killing B12, micro-organisms and bacteria everywhere.

I even say that by promoting these sites, you indirectly harm the vegan movement, because you potentially strengthen the already strong tendency amongst potential vegans that believe that going vegan is either difficult or seems like an unnatural choice.

What we need are sites that inform about all the reasons you could become B12 deficient, and most of all, encourage readers to improve their life quality instead of eating B12 in the morning and kill it before noon.This does not mean that people (vegans or not) that are low in B12 shouldn't do anything with it, vegans or not.



You can get some people to reduce coffe use, sugar, cigarrettes, contraceptives, and deodorant but I don't think you will get many. I can't do much personally. But luckily, there are more and more people that are interested in alternative health and medicine & and more a natural life style. Wouldn't it be sad if the vegan movement should put itself on the sideline and ignores this, and just continue recommending chewing pills? As an example, nowadays it's much easier to find organic food, more 'natural' deodorants, coffeine-free coffee or stuff with other sweeteners than sugar than it was when I changed my diet. Why doesn't (the parts of) the vegan movement (that I'm talking about now) want to participate more actively in this back-to-nature process?

As we eat plants, and not animals, it should be of particular importance to us!

Las Vegan
Nov 13th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Stephen Walsh and Vegan Society are currently conducting clinical studies on possible B12 source in chlorella so I'd say they do have an interest in telling people that the problem with B12. What I like about Walsh/Norris is that when it turns out that chlorella is not a reliable source of B12, he will admit it.
Are you aware that you wrote "when" and not "if"? ;) They are not conducting studies on chlorella, but on chlorella pills, and I suspect that they will find that the B12 in the pills is not active anymore. Maybe they even conduct these studies to prove that they are right?


They are not interested in telling fairy tales about poor little vegans living in a hostile unnatural world which deprived them of B12. Do you really think that telling people that we live in an unnatural word, or pointing at all the documentation about B12 being reduced in various ways is "telling fairytales"?


Does it mean they should contradict and deny the fact that we are omnivores?
When someone claims that something which there is huge disagreement about is just "a fact", it's just got the opposite effect on me. In this case it just reminds me that there is no agreement among scientists or others that the idea that humans are meant to eat meat is more than just an idea. Thanks! :D


the whole talk about nature, for me, is null and void.
Wow. I refuse to believe that you really mean this!

animalsvoice
Dec 2nd, 2004, 04:28 PM
Is this true?

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/IsPeterSingerAPaidPuppetOfTheDrugTrustByCampaignAg ainstFraudInMedicalResearch.htm

Andie
Dec 2nd, 2004, 04:37 PM
I don't know it it's true but it is disappointing when people I've admired for their values turn out to be not so great.

PinkFluffyCloud
Dec 2nd, 2004, 04:38 PM
I remember reading this before in 'CIVIS' literature, hmm, sounds very fishy, there seems to be quite a lot of doubt about Peter Singer's ethics.

PinkFluffyCloud
Dec 2nd, 2004, 04:40 PM
Feel I have to balance out my previous statement, because nobody is beyond fault, nearly everyone has some sort of murk in their past - I know I certainly have, and Singer did encourage the growth of a whole movement, whatever his driving force was.

feline01
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:33 PM
Is this true?

http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/IsPeterSingerAPaidPuppetOfTheDrugTrustByCampaignAg ainstFraudInMedicalResearch.htm


Wow, that was an eye-opener for me, I had not heard this yet about Singer :( .

eve
Dec 3rd, 2004, 08:15 AM
As I've mentioned on other threads, Singer has definitely stated that it is ok to kill a chicken if there's another one to take its place. I don't like that because I'm a vegan - he's not. However, this doesn't mean that I'd vilify him in the way that the website above quoted by animalsvoice does. I don't see that the Rockefeller Foundation is responsible in the way suggested. The Rockefeller Foundation gives funds to all sorts of organisations, and those mentioned in the article are no different from many others, and certainly don't include the meat and dairy industries. As to Hans Reusch and Civis, I recall when Reusch tried to slander the vegan Dr Vernon Coleman, whose website is one of my favourites! ;)

Korn
Dec 11th, 2004, 11:37 PM
Singer has definitely stated that it is ok to kill a chicken if there's another one to take its place. I don't like that because I'm a vegan - he's not.
I'm still not interested in Singer's philosophy, based on the little I know of him - but, out of sheer curiosity, what does he mean by 'if there's another one to take its place'? I've heard this several times, and still don't get it.

eve
Dec 12th, 2004, 05:53 AM
Well on one occasion at the end of a book, he records a conversation with his daughter, who asks about the killing of a chicken. His response was that it was ok as long as there was another to take its place. Presumably his daughter understood what he meant, even though you don't! I guess the point is that he does not value the individual chook as being entitled to live out her/his life - to him one is the same as another! :rolleyes:

Korn
Dec 12th, 2004, 08:39 AM
Well, I guess the reason I don't 'get it' is that I can't see how this way of looking at the life of an animal is even remotely associated with vegan/animal rights ethics.

Anyway, which book is it?

Jay
Dec 12th, 2004, 07:57 PM
I don't have time to read this 5 page thread and it seems that every thread I have something relevant is about 5 pages long. Anyway vegsource is not trustworthy. They delete noncommercial links off of their crappy ez board. When asked why, they don't have the decency to answer. When a thread at another vegan board is started that complains about them, they try to get that board shut down. If you try to tell the people involved with them (Like John Robbins or Jo Stefaniak(sp)) about this, they intercept the messages and make sure these people never find out what they are helping support.

I should say Jeff Nelson does this, for as far as I can tell he is vegsource.

veganblue
Dec 13th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Despite not understanding the full story of Peter Singer's apparent sponsorship by the Rockerfeller Foundation I have to say that I still have natural support for him and have faith in his decisions simply because I know that he does not make big decisions on issues such as these without a great deal of consideration.

We are not to know every angle of the situation without standing in his shoes and it is a bit rich for any of us to wipe him based upon what will be very biased media - public and private.

Considering the immense impact his work has had in raising the profile of animal welfare over several decades; I would suggest that it is inappropriate for any of us to try and judge him based upon limited single sentence statements. Don't read one line quoted, don't just read the page or chapter but read the whole book or his body of work and then decide whether his actions are reprehensible.

Singer's work is ethics where there is no black and white; at least he has the courage to address the difficult questions that often you will find most vegans cannot.

eve
Dec 13th, 2004, 04:31 AM
Quite a didactic posting. I've read a great deal of his ethics, even on the ethics of sex with animals, where he stated that it is ok if it is ok with the animal. Hmmmm

veganblue
Dec 13th, 2004, 05:26 AM
That article can be found here (http://www.nerve.com/Opinions/Singer/heavyPetting/main.asp) butwith a warning that it frankly discusses bestiality and may offend or disturb some readers.

A single sentence summary would be purely misleading.

For further reading. (http://www.petersingerlinks.com/)

PinkFluffyCloud
Dec 13th, 2004, 07:52 AM
Just want to point out, after reading that article on Bestiality, that Horse riding, which was my life for many (pre-Vegan) years, has NOTHING to do with sexuality - that is crap! :mad:
Anyway, I think it is good that Singer is prepared to tackle all issues, and I regret having slated him in the past, but I am still unhappy with his 'replacement theory' - if I may call it that. :confused:

Geoff
Dec 13th, 2004, 09:42 AM
'...the chicken lying in the supermarket freezer today would have died even if I had never existed; but the fact that I take the chicken from the freezer, and ignore the tofu on a nearby shelf, has something to do with the number of chickens, or blocks of tofu, the supermarket will order next week and thus contributes, in a small way, to the future growth or decline of the chicken and tofu industries.'
Peter Singer A Vegetarian Philosophy, Consuming Passions. Manchester, 1998, pp. 66-72