where do you draw the line??????

[Got2Pups]

so i have successfully been converting my lifestyle into a vegan one over the past year. some of it has been easy and some of it has been hard. so anyway, i was kicking around on the internet and found this:

http://www.caringconsumer.com/labels.asp

a lot of it seemed to make sense, and in some ways i agree. i know i must seem very 'difficult' when out with friends and family. are you equally as cautious when out as you are at home. where do you draw the line?

[Seaside]

I feel a rant coming on. Its not directed at you, Got2Pups!


So this is PETA’s plea for patience and tolerance: Please, don’t alienate would-be vegans by examining the food in their cupboards or refrigerators. Don’t make veganism seem oh-so-difficult, as though we spend all our time reading labels and demanding that restaurant servers go back and read the label on the bag of veggie burgers. After all, veganism is about joy and life, and it should not be painted as drudgery.

PETA wants to show people that veganism is easy and mainstream because that’s what is best for animals. Sadly, some people already perceive vegans as “extreme,” “radical,” and “difficult.” Instead of squabbling about some almost nonexistent ingredient, in public situations we should be positive and not pretend that even “pure” vegan food doesn’t come with its quota of rat hairs allowed by law, isn’t processed using electricity that destroys habitat, isn’t delivered in gas-fueled vehicles, and so on.
Arrrggghhh! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't know ANYONE like this! Examining people's cupboards? Making scenes in public? PETA has just done more damage to the vegan image by what they have written in the above paragraphs than any vegan could do by standing in a grocery aisle reading a food label. Yes, sadly, lots of people DO think vegans are extreme, and painting us as cupboard and refrigerator inspectors isn't going to help. There are plenty of omnis who lack good manners when they are either guests in their friends' homes or dining out in public; its got nothing to do with being a vegan. :rolleyes:

[Seaside]

Oh yeah, where do I draw the line? :D
The longer you spend as a vegan, the better you get at knowing what being vegan requires. We all have a unique way of seeing our veganism, so ultimately we are the only ones who can "draw the line" for ourselves, and these lines will not only vary between vegans, they will vary for you as you progress in your veganism. If you really think about it, you know where to draw the line.
Trust me, no one is looking over your shoulder trying to evaluate what's in your pantry or what you are ordering at a restaurant! :D That's your job. :)

[Troutina]

Who has ever gone through someone elses' cupboards?!

I understand the basic message of not wanting people to think that being vegan is difficult- I agree with that. I try to make as little fuss as possible, and if I go out to a non-vegan-option restaurant I ring ahead like they say, or try to look up the menu before hand.

But there was something a little annoying about that article- I would much rather drive somewhere than eat dairy, and I don't really see how they can justify letting your morals slip just because you might have taken an aeroplane somewhere, or driven when you could have walked.

It's also assuming that every vegan is concerned with the environment. Though I have learnt that a huge number of vegans also care about the issues which surround where their food comes from and the impact it has on the planet (soya, for instance), but I think it's also making a huge generalisation to say that just because someone has given up animal products, they automatically will also give up their car, walk/ cycle everywhere and start wearing tie dye.

[Got2Pups]

thanks for the responses!

i don't think that the article is saying you should ignore some milk in your pancakes or that you should not read labels at the market. i think it is more suggesting to ingore or not ask if there is arachidonic acid or red dye 40 in something when someone offers you a cookie or when ordering some soup at a restaurant.

i avoid most non-veg friendly restaurants like the plaque. i hate the thought of having the staff check the ingrediants. (beyond butter, milk and animal fat...i don't mind asking for those) i have cut off many social functions in an attempt to avoid being 'difficult'. sadly, being 'difficult' is ordering a salad, pretending to be satisfied and attempting to enjoy a good time with friends and family.

i am not so much asking your opinion on the ludicricy of the article, e.g. raiding someones cabnets, cycling 35 miles to work, (which i have to agree with you) as i am asking about the day to day dietary choices you make when presented in a public setting. (like do you turn away something with a trace of sugar or dye in it?)

sadly, for some reason, veganism is indeed viewed as extream, radical, and difficult. and i know that like many of us, i would like to see that changed.......but where is the line drawn between personal conviction and public perception?

[herbwormwood]

I think it is bad news that such an influential organisation has put this reading like a policy statement on their website. It is causing a lot of problems for us vegans because as soon as people hear us say "not tested on animals" "no animal ingredients" "vegan" they think we are going to be getting angry at them.
I have seen the influence of this PETA view on vegan magazines and people I know.

[eve]

Got2Pups says: "but where is the line drawn between personal conviction and public perception?"

Just speaking for myself, I don't give a fig about public perception, I'm motivated solely on personal conviction.

[Wildflower]

Interesting...I am very suprised at Peta's stance on that.

I personally don't have a problem with people who choose to label read and cut out every possible animal ingredient known to man.

BUT, I can see how people who may consider going vegan can be turned off by this. It does seem much easier to cut out meat, eggs, dairy and honey than to also cut out all those products that look vegan, but have those weird animal derived ingredients thrown in (with the exception of obvious ones - gelatin, lard, casien, etc).

I personally, don't worry about all those weird ingredients because i don't eat stuff like that anyway. I had no idea Red Dye 40 wasn't vegan, but when do I eat that? Never. It is much easier, in my opinion, to be vegan when you eat mainly whole foods anyway. Even what packaged foods I do buy have very short ingredient lists, and they are things i know what are and can be eaten on their own.

I do eat out occasionally, and i have never asked about peservatives in tortillas or anything like that. I somewhat feel that makes me a bad vegan, but that is what works for me. I do believe we have a right to know what's in our food, and I do ask questions about obvious things as well check resturaunt websites for ingredients and look up known recipes for what generally is made with meat stock, etc. just to know and avoid.

The other thing is, I don't put any trust into what servers in resturaunts tell me is in the food, so I try to make up my own mind on things like that. I avoid rice and soup dishes in non-veggie resturants unless labeled vegetarian, just because I know they never are, I don't bother to ask that.

I agree with others that what you find acceptable will change overtime, and it is about what is right for YOU.

[ravenfire]

Yeah, i've never heard of anyone going through someone elses cabinets reading their labels lol, how rude could you get!! But as for reading labels in grocery stores, I'm not just looking for animal producs in my food but also things like high fructose corn syurp and hydroginated oils (both of which are automatic no-buys for me).

[Wildflower]

yeah, I read labels of everything I buy at the store. I won't purchase items with hydrogenated oils, and I like to watch out for too much salt/sugar/fat and buy whole grain, high fiber stuff. the labels tell me that.

Do you think that maybe the label comment, is for something that friend is cooking for you? I mean, I would probably check labels if I saw my friend cooking something for me. I just read things inadvertantly anyway, I would probably do that even if I wasn't vegan.

[Seaside]

And people who do make "scenes" in restaurants may have fatal allergies to trace ingredients, and so their lives depend upon not having these in their meals. Some of us have the luxury of not having to eat in restaurants, but some people who travel for work or must take clients to networking lunches and dinners are stuck eating out.

[Wildflower]

Very good point Seaside. I would never knock anyone doing that.

Eating out with clients must be so hard. It is tough enough for me to eat out with colleagues.

[qwaychou]

Very good points , to all.
I just do the very best I can, one meal, one purchase, one day at a time.
And when i see that darned anti-wrinkle cream commercial, my conscience is clear, because no kitties were burned to make sure my lotion was safe to use.
And when my omni husband eats meat, I think about the animal that didn't have to die for my meal, or suffer to provide foodstuffs for me. It may not be much, but then I come here and read many , many posts from caring people like you, and I think, maybe, a factory farm got shut down this week, because of us.
Day by day, I just make the best choices I can, some others here wouldn't agree with, some maybe people would deem extreme, but it's what helps me live my life and not feel heartache over my choices.
Thanks for listening.

[veggiegirl3]

I read PETA's article a few days ago (before I found this thread). It really does make vegans seem extreme. I don't know anyone who searches through friends' cupboards, but if a friend and I are cooking dinner, I do read the labels on whatever we're cooking and they never care. I think many people respect our values. When I go out, which is a rare occurance, I tend to get things that I know to be vegan. If I get something like rice or potatoes, I ask if there is butter or milk in it. That isn't making a scene. However, I don't ever get something (like bread) that there are many possible animal products in, because it would be too hard to know. As for turning away food with traces of animal products, I do, but I don't make a big deal about it.

[chickendude]

I have no problem with that statement by PETA. That site has actually helped coax a couple of my friends into going vegan. It's a good stepping stone. Then, as people start relating more to veganism they realize the "99% vegan" part of that list, and start ratonalizing. It's a nice way to convert from large chain stores to smaller local organic stores. I, personally, wouldn't follow that site too closely, but I would recommend it to aspiring vegans.

[poppy seed]

Since I do not know a single, solitary vegan in RL, this thread has me fantasizing about how lovely it would be to have a vegan friend come over and go through my pantry with me! Then we could go to out to lunch and compare meals.....Ahhhhh - I'm so vegan lonely, I'd like the vegan police to show up at my door!!!

[UrbanVegan]

At restaurants I try to be as easy of a customer as possible. But I do ask my share of questions. "Are the veggies cooked with butter or with meat? May I have rolls without butter on them? Is there butter or milk in the sauce?" Yada yada. Which is why I normally do not like going to most American fare restaurants. Lots of butter and dairy in the food. I have to work too hard to get a vegan meal that actually taste good. Japenese, Chinese, Italian, Greek, and Indian restaurants are normally the easiest.

If I know where I'm going to eat before hand then I'll try to look up a menu online and that helps me a lot. I know if I should eat before leaving home and just get a great salad there :p.

I don't preach veganism so unless someone is having an issue with what's on my plate I'm totally accepting of the choices others have made for their plate.

I'm not a vegan lifestyler although I make an effort not to purchase leather outside of shoes. When I get Christmas gifts like a leather purse I don't complain or ask for a receipt. I use the purse and go on with life. My $200 winter coat is wool and a gift from my mother. That's my only coat and its a good warm one. I wear it. I'm vegan because its a healthy diet.

So for me I draw the line at what I eat and not get too deep into the other areas. I don't discuss with others what they eat either. Unless they ask me. Then I'll give my spill on a vegan diet.

[UrbanVegan]

Who has ever gone through someone elses' cupboards?!



I was wondering the same thing. I have no concerns what is in someone's cupboard as long as it's legal :confused:

[fiamma]

I don't preach veganism so unless someone is having an issue with what's on my plate I'm totally accepting of the choices others have made for their plate.

Veganism isn't about preaching, it's about educating people about a healthy lifestyle. It's a pity that you seem to have such a negative view of the choice you've made, which in my opinion is a wonderful, compassionate choice.



I'm not a vegan lifestyler although I make an effort not to purchase leather outside of shoes.

But veganism is a lifestyle. I find it difficult to understand how people can be so passionate about animal rights and environmental issues as to follow a vegan diet, then be so blasè in the face of other cruel industries like leather and wool. You are following a vegan diet. But you are not a vegan.

[sandra]

I totally agree with you fiamma, to me being vegan is a total way of being, you can't be a little vegan just as you can't be a 'little pregnant!'

[fiamma]

:D That's a great analogy, Sandra! Love it!

[feral]

My veggie mum was served soup starter one night and spotted small bits of meat in it, when I questioned the waiter on it he said yes vegetarian it is only a little bit of bacon. These are the things that happen when labels are watered down to suit those who don't want to put all the work in.

[veggiegirl3]

Wow. I asked a waiter the other day if there were eggs or dairy in something (I don't remember what). He said, "No, but there might be butter in it."

[BRobinson]

I have no problem with that statement by PETA. That site has actually helped coax a couple of my friends into going vegan. It's a good stepping stone. Then, as people start relating more to veganism they realize the "99% vegan" part of that list, and start ratonalizing. It's a nice way to convert from large chain stores to smaller local organic stores. I, personally, wouldn't follow that site too closely, but I would recommend it to aspiring vegans.

I agree. Just because no one here has ever felt the need to go searching through someone's cabinets to criticize, that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I know that at times i have been more anal than is appropriate about vegan stuff at restaurants. PeTA is doing a valuable service by raising the issue and getting a message across.

[madpogue]

I totally agree with you fiamma, to me being vegan is a total way of being, And that's an even better way of putting it. To me, "lifestyle" is an inadequate term; it equates veganism with, Idunno, "boating" or the like.

"Total way of being" - I like that.