Biofuel

[negavert]

It seems that biodeisel was mentioned in the news a few times due to a promise John Kerry made to encourage the switchover to it. The story I heard made mention that biodeisel can be made from the recycled vegetable oil and animal fat from restaurants.

If it gets to the point where biodeisel becomes a mainstream reality but if there's no way to verify whether or not the biodeisel comes from an animal source or not, would you make the switch anyway?

It seems like this would be a more complicated case than at first glance; it appeases most of our other concerns about the environment (made from recycled materials, cleaner burning), the economy (made locally providing jobs sorely needed in the US), and global politics (reduced dependency on foreign oil, less need to control other countries to ensure free flow of oil), but would you spurn its use if it has the possibility of coming from animal fat?

[veganmike]

Now that you own Iraq, I don't think will you need biodeisel. ;)

In Poland they want to add plant components to the fuel. Rapeseed oil I guess.

[Gorilla]

i don't drive a car, so i wouldn't personally need to use it anyway. i think it's an interesting idea...but i never want to drive a car whether it uses biodiesel or not, for various reasons.

[cast_the_flames]

as long as it was recycled, i would use it. i would not be very happy with it if animal fat for fuel became an industry. it does burn much cleaner than gasoline, however, and since i am a vegan for environmental reasons, i would still use it. i'd put up a bit of a fight, though :)

but isn't biodeisel for deisel engines only? i have a regular car.

[mattd]

but isn't biodeisel for deisel engines only? i have a regular car.

Yeah it is, but I think it might be specialized deisel engines. There's some people around here that I know of who run their cars off of oil they collect from restaurants. Their cars have to have two engines. One "regular" desiel starter engine that warms the car up, and one "biodeisel" (i put in in quotes cause i'm not sure if it's the same technology as other biodeisels). once the bio engine is warmed up the "regular" deseil engine is turned off and it runs completely off the oil collected from restaurants.

[negavert]

Yes, biodeisel is for deisel-only engines. Ethanol would be the fuel to use for gasoline engines. It's an alcohol that is derived from fermentation of grain or corn, and you can modify your car to accept it. If you have had any experience in beer-making, you can make your own fuel too. There are resources on journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html) has all that kind of info, if anyone wants to take the plunge or at least learn more about it.

[Sabster]

I'd probably use it. It sounds more removed than a general byproduct. Good for the environment. Kind of yuckville too... thinking about animal fat makes me cringe and want to hurl... but really it's all so chemically altered that by the time it becomes the final product it's something else entirely.

At some point you have to do a general comparison, a scale so to speak. The better of two evils or something like that...

[John]

I definitely would not buy any animal fat fuel. Come on now. Do I have to explain why?

[negavert]

Say John, how about if I frame the question *this* way:

Would you switch to biodiesel, which might be made from animal fat, or would you continue to use petroleum-based fuels, which is changing the climate and undoubtably causing the death of animals for lack of habitats?

If we are concerned about not contributing to the deaths of animals, what do we do in cases where either choice we make will ultimately have the same result?

And no weasling out of it by saying "oh, I'll ride a bike, or pogo-stick" :)

I ask because I see this as a potential quandry for those vegans of moral conscience. I'm sure there are other instances where it's "damned if you do and damned if you don't" that we encounter, so I see this as a way to find out how different people come to terms with those kind of scenarios.

[John]

I do not believe that animal fat-based fuel would pollute any less than petroleum. If cars ran on fat-based fuel, pigs would be bred to be fat like they were 50 years ago when lard was more in demand. To raise those pigs the factory farms would require feed which nowadays is farmed using large machines which run on man-made fuel. And fertilizer which is usually petroleum based would be neccessary to grow the feed.

I don't think that under close scrutiny the numbers will add up. I find it hard to believe that this system would accomplish anything more than give a boost to the animal-cruelty industry.

[Uncle_Dave]

Last weekend I helped a fellow who was having problems with his VW TDI (Diesel). He pulled the injectors, and one had a slightly distorted spray, however it would not stop him. He was also "Chipping" the engine. Bad settings on the new chip seemed to be the problem. He had two tanks for fuel, one standard, the other for the Bio fuel. He would start the engine with the standard Diesel, then switch over to the Bio Diesel when it was hot. One engine, two fuel supplies.

The Vender who was doing the "chipping" had a slightly damaged Turbine shaft and fans, to peak interest. I was shocked at the size of the thing. I used an American Quarter to give a scale of size. These fans were just slightly larger. By scavinging some power from the exaust, and pushing air into the engine with the spinning of this small device, you can greatly increase the power of the engine. Reducing the CO2?

[Trendygirl]

I would like to use bio fuel when or if I ever have a car. As it stands at the moment I don’t think that you have to worry about the animal fat issue as it is not in pumping stations and you have to make your own arrangements. When I was at friends of the earth talking to a guy who is really into the road traffic issue and is veggie, he never mentioned anything about animal fat. I know that someone gave friends of the earth in Birmingham, England a demonstration of how to convert a diesel car to run on bio fuel. When I am next there I will try find out some more information on the subject.

However on the subject of burning animal fat, I can’t see it being that good for the environment!

I read an article in the big issue a few months ago and it said that the trains there are run on a mixture of vegetable oil and more conventional non renewable oil because it was cheaper. Or at least they did in the 1970’s or something and are now considering bringing it back. I think cars were also run on vegetable oil.

[Tofu Monster]

My bicycle doesn't use ANY fuel! :)

[John]

I'm about to have some bio-food and ride my bio-cycle cuz I can't afford to bio-a-car.

[gertvegan]

HERES (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/11/23/feeding-cars-not-people/) a Feeding Cars, Not People article from George Monbiot thats relevant to this thread.

Yikes the farming industry run by the oil industry. :eek:

[gibby]

Hi all

Ive been looking into using veg oil in my diesel car.

even just using 5% saves us money and makes a big difference to the planet and keeps money out of the govs pocket.

if you have a diesel car you can use supermarket oil up to 80%
you should really tell Mr Brown and pay duty.

If you spend a few hundred quid on a kit then you can run 100% veg oil or used oil and you are not hurting the planet and encourging the farmers to grow crops rather than meat.

Does anyone here do this??

Gibby

[On the Coast]

I drive a huge double tanked dually (double rear wheels) truck for my farm. I run the first tank off Bio-diesel, and the second tank off veggie oil. I get the Bio-diesel from my mechanic (100% post consumer veggie oil derived), and the veg oil from my local falafel hut. I spend about $35 a month on gas - :D.

[tipsy]

i drive a toyota prius (hybrid electric)...

i bareley drive it...i go to and from work everyday, but other than that i rely on public transport, my bike, or my legs...or my friends :D

i would drive biodiesel...i did for a while...till the sucker broke down!...but it happens that i fell in love with the prius. *sigh* its a beauty.

i know i still use gas, but i figure that id rather drive a hybrid car not a lot because of gas usage, than drive a biodiesel car more (because of no gas usage), because driving upsets me and makes me feel like i am drowniing in a sea of stupid people...

if that makes sense...

[aubergine]

My next car is going to be Diesel, and I'd pay extra to run it on Biodiesel if I had to.

[Pob]

I would really like to go for the straight vegetable oil option, rather than biodiesel.
Obviously you still need to start the engine with a small amount of (bio)diesel, but I think it is a decent green option.

I wish they could solve the problem of soot from diesel engines, though, as due to the size of them, they are supposed to be really bad for you.

[gibby]

well to do my bit Im getting my car converted to run on veg oil

it stops me chucking lots of money at the nasty oil firms and cuts the tax the UK gov rip us off for - and helps the planet

Gibby

[Roxy]

Is it costly to have this conversion done?

[gibby]

No as it will save you a fortune.

you have 2 options
buy a kit for around £400 which means you have 2 tanks
the main tank is for any veg oil the second for normal diesel.

simply start engine on normal diesel and finish on it too - just inbetween run on veg oil.

the reason is that the veg oil as it comes from the bottle can clog up your fuel pump so you dont want any left in the pump after your journey.
The kit heats the oil slightly.

Engines were first designed to run on oil, and it would keep the farmers in biz.

You are supposed to register with the authorities to pay duty, waste oil has a very small duty per litre and new oil a bit more
but how much you state you use is up to the individual.

without a kit - Bio Diesel
You can also mix veg oil with normal diesel and 50 50 should run with no problems, some get to 90 10 with no problems depending on your car engine

have a search on the web as there are lots of sites with info and a very helpful bunch they are too.

just try sticking in your tank the cheapest oil you can find and keep upping the % until it gets sluggish


Gibby

[On the Coast]

I drive a huge double tanked dually (double rear wheels) truck for my farm. I run the first tank off Bio-diesel, and the second tank off veggie oil. I get the Bio-diesel from my mechanic (100% post consumer veggie oil derived), and the veg oil from my local falafel hut. I spend about $35 a month on gas - :D.

Hah - quoting myself, It does'nt get much more self centered than that - :o

Anyhoo, I just sold my Bio-Truck to a Rice Farmer I know, and I bought a double tanked gasoline truck. I am building a still with a friend of mine, and I am converting this new gas truck to run on ethanol - :), It's really easy, and before you 'denature' the ethanol (poison it), you can have a lil taste of the good stuff - ;).

So anyways, after I get a good feel for ehtanol, I am going to buy another gas truck and convert it to electric - :D

[terrace max]

Zac Goldsmith in today's Independent newspaper:


Biofuels are a good alternative. But there's a catch. The world's bread-baskets have been hammered by intensive agriculture and climate change - the Punjab is more than 50 per cent desert, the Northern Plains of China are turning into desert at a rate of 10,000 square miles a year, and so on. To produce enough biofuel to replace oil will require more land than we can afford to make available. Ultimately, we must reduce our dependence on the car, or hope for greater investment in alternatives. For now, we must urge governments to require car-makers to improve fuel efficiency.