Why are many vegans so blasé when it comes to alcohol?

[Mr Flibble]

It's a phenomenon that affects all drinks but alcoholic in particular - many vegans (including those who view themselves as being very strict) not only are not as rigerous about the alcohol they consume themselves as their are about food but will pass advice to others on the subject. There is no such thing as completely vegan - everyone decides their own level and that's cool - it's part of life, but making recommendations based on your own level of acceptance isn't. Personally if someone says something is vegan online then I do my own research, but I know a lot of people are too lazy to do so and just beleive what they read.

I sufferred from this myself when I first turned vegan, only paying attention to beer but not turning down glasses of wine or spirits. Thankfully in recent years I've applied the same tollerance that I do to food. It's hypocritical to pay so much attention to limitting animal use in certain parts of life then completely ignore others - particularly when we're talking about luxury items which aren't even good for you.

There's a lot of misleading information available both in print (such as the vegan society's infamous piece of completely useless info 'most spirits are vegan') and online (such as outdated country specific lists) which often gets rehashed in 'is xxxx vegan' threads. The word 'most' is finite not infinite - most bread in the UK is vegan but there's plenty which isn't. Are people just overly optomistic about their favourite things?

It's a fact that many alcoholic drinks are produced under license in different countries by different companies. Recipes are closely guarded by many manufacturers and not divulged beyond what is required by the law under which they operate. They also change dependant on location due to factors such as availability and cost of raw materials. One beer in the UK may not be made by either the same ingredients (be they vegen/vegetarian/non vegetarian - fairtrade or non fairtrade) or manufacturing technique. The company that makes it under license may have really dodgy business practices and produce other products which are definitely at odds with vegan principles.

Then there is the problem of out of date info. You wouldn't take notice of the 2001 edition of the animal free shopper, so why trust a website which has no date by each piece of evidence? Because most alcoholic drinks (in the UK at least) do not have ingredients lists you have no notification of when ingredients change. 2 year old information is nothing more than a guideline.

I've bought these issues up in threads on this forum about alcohol in the past but they're often not addressed or even read, so I thought it was time it had it's own thread. I've lost track of the number of times I've read online over the last 6 years people who have replied "yes it is :)" and not offerred anything in way of evidence.

I enjoy drinking, i attended a debate last week on the pros and cons of drinking in terms of it's affect on our lives and I personally think it's up to individuals how much and how regularly they consume, but just as being an alcoholic affects those you live with drinking in moderation products which contain or have been tested on animals and recommending them to others is not cool. Thankfully lots of varieties of vegan alcohol are out there if sufficient digging is done.

[aubergine]

Well said :)

[jackxattack]

I'll admit, I'm not totally strict when it comes to alcohol and have drunk wine I wasn't totally sure was vegan (always at parties when I was quite drunk and didn't really give it a thought) but I think part of it is the fact that there's so much wishy washy info on it (i.e. the aforementioned 'most spirits are vegan' assertion on the Vegan Society's website) many people will turn a blind eye to wine/spirits being vegan or not where as beer/cider is easier to find info on so it's not something you can justify so much.
On a side note, it annoys me that when I meet vegetarians who don't read up on which beer is/isn't vegetarian- last time I checked isinglass came from fish which aren't a vegetable (does that make me a bit of a hypocrite- probably :( ) i.e. Newcastle Brown definitely isn't vegetarian and one vegetarian I know (who even has the ALF logo on his Myspace page) drinks it!

[herbwormwood]

My Dear One likes his real ale. Its one of the reasons he refuses to call himself Vegan despite not eating fish flesh or fowl, not drinking animal milk or eating eggs. He is out tonight and there is no way he is going to restrict his pint based on a list. Somtimes he says to me "I'm not even a vegetarian really" because of some of the things that are done to beer. It doesn't bother me. I wish there were more vegan beers for him but as far as I can see he does his bit with what he doesn't eat.

[FR]

If I were to drink some alcohol, I know there are many vegan alternatives easily available, so I'd just drink those as opposed to non-vegan drinks. I'm sorry, but the thought of something being filtered through fish bladders :eek: is enough to make me make sure I'd go with the vegan versions.

[tabitha]

I always get my wine from the Co-op as its clearly labelled whether or not its vegan. If Im in pubs, which is very rarely, I would probably have a lager that I know is vegan or orange juice. If we go to pubs Im usually driver and have a drink when I get home. If I go to parties I take my own booze. Not that I drink much anyway.......:rolleyes:

[Pob]

I always get my wine from the Co-op as its clearly labelled whether or not its vegan. If Im in pubs, which is very rarely, I would probably have a lager that I know is vegan or orange juice. If we go to pubs Im usually driver and have a drink when I get home. If I go to parties I take my own booze. Not that I drink much anyway.......:rolleyes:Just to confuse the issue, orange juice may be filtered through gelatine. The fruit may have been waxed with beeswax or shellac, too :(

I try as hard as I can, but I have occasionally bought something that I was sure was vegan and then later found it wasn't :( Nothing that I am aware of recently, though.

Now if someone would only volunteer to keep an up to date list, Mr Flibble;)

[tabitha]

Oh bloody hell Rob!!:mad: Does this mean I will have to get the taxi home and drink vodka in the pub?? (not Smirnoff). I may as well take a flask with me in a brown paper bag and look like a proper alcy. *resolves NEVER to go to pub again*.;)

[Lex]

Not that I drink much anyway.......:rolleyes:

Is there an emoticon for "guffaw of disbelief quickly converted into pretend cough"? ;)

roll on the new proposed labelling laws for alcoholic beverages, eh?

[laurin]

I agree with you, if you're vegan why be slack in areas such as alcohol?

[Bluey]

I'm fussy with beer and spirits, but not so fussy with wine. This is an economic problem, $4 wine from clearskins vs $40 organic wine. And its very difficult to know for sure. Luckily though since last year they have to label all wine that used dairy products.

[snaffler]

It is a hard one for many MR Fibble.

One good rule to remember with Wine if you are strict at following the vegan diet in this area is, a Wine that was vegan for 2005 may not be on the 2006 edition producers change their ways every year.

Beers are Lagers are brewed to a certain way and stick to it; also stuff brewed under license is brewed as per country of origin.

For example Becks is Brewed under license in the UK, the brewery who make Becks for Becks the company make only two other vegan beers all their other range is not, but they must brew to license or face severe penalties and loss of contract.

For wine I would always say stick to well known vegan suppliers or in the High St use the Co-oP.

I am very strict about this thing myself and stick to what I know and often write to companies for advice most are good.

I recently got into trying a few real beers not many are vegan so write before you try.

One was Badger Beers, all the Bottles and Cans are Vegan but the Casks are not. That is another tricky one to make life hard for us vegans, the same beer in a different container can or can not be vegan confused well its all down to the process of filtration.

As for me I avoid unknown drinks I shudder at the thought of drinking animal by products despite the brewers saying it’s a small amount (about a 1 tsp per 1000 litres if that) and they can promise 99% of the product is removed….the choice is yours really……for me it’s the use of animals to produce the drink I am also unhappy about.

So many others have proved it can be done with out animal based by-products.

As for online data unless its dated and recent go and check yourself, most online databases are volunteer run and not updated on a regular basis.

[Mr Flibble]

but they must brew to license or face severe penalties and loss of contract.

Correct, but the terms of that contract may not be that they have to brew it the same that it is elsewhere. Look at soft drinks for example - corn syrup is in abundance in the US (cheap) and used as a sweetener. In the EU where it isn't really produced and there are strict import quotas (expensive) companies which produce products under license use different ingrediants such as glucose. There is no legal reason that products produced by seperate breweries/factories will be made in the same manner, only that the owner of the license agree to the terms. A 'visual' indication of this is the fact that many beers are brewed to different strengths dependant on the country.


a Wine that was vegan for 2005 may not be on the 2006 edition producers change their ways every year.

that's a good point

[FR]

Just to let some of you all know, just because a wine is organic that doesn't make it vegan. I've seen vegan wines here for a little as 10 bucks a liter.

If I couldn't afford vegan wine, I'd just do without wine. C'mon, having something filtered through a fish bladder isn't a gross enough reason to make you not want to drink it???

[RedWellies]

Just to confuse the issue, orange juice may be filtered through gelatine. The fruit may have been waxed with beeswax or shellac, too :(
)
Yes, and that's a real problem for me in pubs! I'm ending up drinking no end of water!

[antman]

I've always been as strict with drinks as I am with food. Not when I was vegetarian, because I had no idea there were drinks that wouldn't be suitable, but since going vegan I've been careful with everything.

I have to trust labelling with ordinary drinks to an extent, just as I do with some foods - if a product is labelled 'Ingredients: Orange Juice (and nothing else)' then it would be silly and counter-productive to turn it away 'just in case'.

Non-vegan alcohol is fairly easy for me to avoid, as I've never been a big drinker in that department so I'm happy sticking to either one drink or none at all.

[aubergine]

I'm as strict with this as I am with anything containing sugar, preservatives etc.

Veganism doesn't end with meat, eggs and milk.

[veganblue]

I don't drink anymore. I don't feel the need to and am much happier for *not* drinking.
When I used to have alcohol, I afterwards like I had gotten stuck in front of the TV watching *nothing* and that time was completely lost to me.

Much prefer it this way and it removes the conflict of wondering what might be in what I was drinking.

I drank while I was in Spain recently - but only a little and could have done without it. :) Was all part of the experience however.

[VeganJohn]

When I first turned vegan I must admit I let alcohol slip under the net a few times. I think I used the rationale that since animal products were used in the refining process and not actually present in the finished product, it wasn't as bad as eating non-vegan derivatives in food. I was under the impression for ages that Fosters lager (a popular drink in the UK) was vegan as it was a lager but this is apparently not true.

Thankfully, with the internet I have found that there are many vegan beers and wines available. I ten to stick to Grolsch when I am out with friends, or bottles of Becks. There are some great organic vegan wines out there :>

With reference to different wine years, I was in a top Michelin star restaurant with my parents last year and they prepared an excellent vegan meal for me. The wine waiter advised me of vegan wines on the list, which were all from later years. He said quite a few wines are now produced with 'modern filtration methods', although older wines often are cleared using ingredients uch as egg shells.

[Agatha]

gosh i find the whole alcohol debate v confusing. The last time I did research I came to the conclusion strongbows and gin were ok which is what i mainly drink, but i have to admit it probably needs updating.

I once got in touch with Sainsbury's (where I usually shop) to find out which of their wines are vegan and they told me all the organic ones are. So I've always looked for the organic label (and fairtrade!) since but i'm having doubts again now.

[sugarmouse]

i am glad of this thread mr flibble !

i have always noticed this aswell.i agree there is conflicting information (i also thought fosters was veganuntil very recently) and a general lack of thorough checks by alot of vegans on alcohol.me included to a point i admit,i have drunk wine atother peoples houses without checking the label, and i am glad this thread has reminded me to not do this anymore.if i do go to a gathering then i wil either take some i know is vegan or ensure they have vegan drinks there for me.
when i buy my own alcohol i do buy ones ihave been assured are vegan.but this thread has reminded me that sometimes ths is not enough. i am going to do soem rummaging onthe internet tonight andsee if i can find some clarifying information on the ones i am not 100% sure about:)

[Agatha]

sugarmouse - would it be possible to post any of the info you find?! cheers!

[nervine]

I've heard that one unit of alcohol per day is actually healthy for you.
I wanna start my own brewery. It can't be that hard.. :D

I found this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html

I am e-mailing Duvel to see if their beer is vegan as it's my favourite beer.

[snaffler]

I've heard that one unit of alcohol per day is actually healthy for you.
I wanna start my own brewery. It can't be that hard.. :D

I found this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html

I am e-mailing Duvel to see if their beer is vegan as it's my favourite beer.

You will be pleased to know Duvel is vegan as is Hoegaarden I have already checked less than 30 days ago re Duvel and Hoegaarden is well known as a vegan brew.

A lot of the German White Beers are unfiltered and unpasturised which is the area us vegans have issues or hazzards with.

[abrennan]

Here's an article about alcohol advising us to stay away from it

I like the last line the best:

" When it comes to alcohol, as Dr Jackson says, there is no free lunch. The best thing is to stay away from it. ":eek:

Antonyteatotaller