View Full Version : Veganism vs. Strict Vegetarianism
UrbanVegan
Jun 1st, 2006, 05:37 PM
Well if you're strict then this is for you http://veganerotica.com/
:eek: ohhhhhhhhhhhhh k That's taking your veganism seriously.
VeganRunner
Jun 2nd, 2006, 08:56 PM
I was wondering where people draw the line when it comes to Veganism vs. Strict Vegetarianism.
I personally think one can say they are vegan if since they decided to go vegan they have abstained as much as possible from buying any products, be it food or other material goods, that contain animal products for themselves. I say buy because I do not include old items that someone wants to get the most use out of them that they can as to not waste them.
I would call people who only follow a "vegan diet" and do not think twice about buying leather or occasionally "cheating" on said diet a vegan but I would call that person a strict vegetarian. I would call them a strict vegetarian because the only are concerned w. dietary factors and animal treatment doesn't necessarily interest them. An example I have is that there is someone who claims to be vegan who doesn't think twice about buying leather goods and just the other weekend was seen in a local restaurant splitting a brownie and ice cream dessert and also using cream in coffee. I would say that is almost a strict vegetarian - assuming that they actually do follow a mostly "vegan diet" other than restaurant incidents.
I thought I would spark up this debate because I stated something on the levels of veganism thread and I don't think I accurately articulated what I meant so I figured I would start this thread so people can say where they personally draw the line.
Wishin- just wondering why you are watching this person so closely that you saw "cheating"? Why do you care if the person is having a brownie sundae? That is their decision...not yours. I do feel that veganism is about complete devotion to betting the world and not using animal products, but even if the person is eating dairy...they are most likely still a vegetarian (I'm assuming?) Any one person who does not eat meat is saving thousands of animals lives throughout their lifetime so let's focus on that fact. No point in getting caught up in petty details- especially when they don't concern you. Sorry if I sound blunt but that is how I feel and I totally respect how you feel as well- but that's JMO. :o
Wishin986
Jun 2nd, 2006, 09:46 PM
Well actually I'm not watching the person closely - a friend of mine brought it up to me. I used it as an example - I follow definitions closely and I never ever half ass anything I do - I just don't believe in it. Therefore, I guess sometimes it strikes a chord when people do half ass things. Misusing the word vegan is a pet peeve so I hate when people do it - and that was one example - there are a lot of others but that was the most intense of what I mean in how the word vegan often gets misconstrued - a lot of people are out there just to use it as a weight loss tool or a fad diet and I don't think that should be classified as veganism but strict vegetarianism considering its centered around vanity and not animals. It gives veganism a bad name. Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference. Plus this is a vegan forum where we discuss vegan issues not vegetarian issues so while vegetarianism is a worthwhile cause I am going to stick to discussing how the benefits of veganism go even beyond that of vegetarianism.
Its interesting that you decided to get very defensive about a "petty detail" when I only used it as an example to demonstrate my definition of veganism vs. strict vegetarianism. A lot of members use examples about dealing w. other omnis and people. I used it to spark a debate - the question being where should the line be drawn - and its funny how you avoided the point of my whole thread to focus on a petty detail that, unless im mistaken, does not concern you either. Its also funny how you called it a brownie sundae when im pretty sure i just said brownie and ice cream dessert which could just be a brownie w. a scoop of ice cream on the side - but oddly enough thats exactly what its called on the menu. Also a good amount of people go back to being an omni as well as vegetarians so I personally wouldn't just assume they are vegetarian.. unless I knew for sure that is - which you wouldn't - right? and that is just my opinion. :o
Seaside
Jun 3rd, 2006, 02:50 AM
I follow definitions closely and I never ever half ass anything I do - I just don't believe in it. Therefore, I guess sometimes it strikes a chord when people do half ass things. Misusing the word vegan is a pet peeve so I hate when people do it - and that was one example - there are a lot of others but that was the most intense of what I mean in how the word vegan often gets misconstrued - a lot of people are out there just to use it as a weight loss tool or a fad diet and I don't think that should be classified as veganism but strict vegetarianism considering its centered around vanity and not animals. It gives veganism a bad name. Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference. Plus this is a vegan forum where we discuss vegan issues not vegetarian issues so while vegetarianism is a worthwhile cause I am going to stick to discussing how the benefits of veganism go even beyond that of vegetarianism.
Well said Wishin. :)
Wishin986
Jun 3rd, 2006, 03:18 AM
Well said Wishin. :)
Why thank you Seaside :D
Wishin986
Jun 3rd, 2006, 04:12 AM
I have not changed how I shop for non-food items. I have not bought any clothes, shoes, our household furniture since I've been on this forum. I'm buying tennis shoes within the next week and I'll see how that goes. I have stop buying Burger King onion rings. :D
very nice! haha maybe you can make your own onion rings that will probably be even better :D
applecrumble
Jun 3rd, 2006, 07:33 AM
I have heard people describe themselves as "near vegans", "nearly vegan", "almost vegan" etc, one said "I am as near to being a vegan as I can get - I still put milk in tea."
I prefer those terms to people trying to bend the word to fit their actions.
moonshadow
Jun 3rd, 2006, 07:48 AM
wishin-- i'm reminded of one of bryce's (dh) cousins who we were visiting who said, 'your vegan, wow, i am too!' whilst wearing a leather jacket (not fake, either...) and then later that day (we were visiting them) ate some cookies that were storebought and not vegan.
when i asked her about it, she did one of those, 'oh, well, you know, i'm impressed by those vegans who can manage without leather and stuff' comments and proceded to change the subject. she said she ate meat and fish when she was travelling for a year, too. because, 'you have to when you're travelling'.
whatever. we don't get angered by her, but we do laugh about it a lot. poor deluded girl. and she was a student at the most vegan college at our vegan friendly university... maybe she just got it in her head that it's cool, or something.
treehugga
Jun 3rd, 2006, 12:04 PM
Being vegan is so much about the ethics and avoiding cruelty to animals and has been since the beginning. How awful to push these aside as though they are an after thought, second only to dietry. I actually find this insulting and was grateful to find a forum that so strongly stated in it's guidelines that this was such a strong consideration of being on here. That is so we don't have to constantly argue about it, like we already spend so much of our time doing with people who aren't vegans. I understand people are interested in the topic but feel it's been debated to death in the 'levels of veganism' thread already.
Korn
Jun 3rd, 2006, 06:56 PM
I used it as an example
I do this often myself (...which may not be a good idea, as English not my main language, and I'm confused re. when to write ie. and eg. and so on... :) ), and/but I think using examples often is the best way to explain what I mean. I think a common misunderstanding - when people discuss the definition of 'vegan' - is that some people think we are policing what others do when we focus on veganism not being only about diet.
Donald Watson - one of founders of the vegan movement and inventor of the word 'vegan' - was known to have a strong, general interest in finding out exactly what people meant when they were using certain words, which makes a lot of sense, because we communicate with words, and therefore it's important to know if we use the same definition of the words we communicate with... like 'vegan', 'rude, 'God', 'love', 'grumpy'....
Dont get me wrong vegetarianism is great theres just a big difference. That's it: it's brilliant that people give up meat or dairy, but being vegan is not only about diet. Some people think we are being arrogant when we point out that eating dairy or buying leather is not part of being vegan, but miss that we want to keep the original definition of the word 'vegan', and not end up with terms like 'lacto-vegan' or 'vegan, but use fur', or 'ovo-honey-vegan' etc.
Why do you care if the person is having a brownie sundae? That is their decision...not yours.
With all due respect, VeganRunner, I think you misunderstand. It was an example, but also, and not totally un-important: from a vegan point of view, it's up to the cows, and not up icecream-loving people to decide if they shall dedicate their life to serve humans with dairy products. Don't get me wrong, but in a way, if someone want to use the mothers' milk of a cow or pig or human to make a dessert, it's not 'their decision', or at least it shouldn't be: it should be the decision of the sentient beings that are kept in captivity in order to give os pleasure or nourishment.
The less animal products people use, the better for the animals. We can both focus on keeping the definition of vegan intact, and be supportive of positive changes people are making in their lives at the same time, even if they are not as perfect as we would want them to be... supporting the good often is a much better solution than condemning the bad. In a non-vegan world, nobody are 'perfect vegans' anyway...
So, stating that using leather or eating ice cream is not part of vegan may be important to do now and then, just to remind people who don't know much about veganism that it's not only a diet or something something vegans follow when it's convenient.
I'm sure people occasionally will misinterpret what we say or write (and some vegans actually are judgmental when seeing people who are acting 'un-veganly', which probably push people away) - but being a minority, I guess we just have to get used to a certain amount of misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
ravenfire
Jun 4th, 2006, 08:41 PM
I also hate that the term is being watered down. Our local wild oats has started labeling dishes with honey in them vegan and we have a local restaurant with a vegan menu that has a salad with honey dressing. Someone told me that they saw a jar of pickled eggs that was labeled vegetarian and vegan friendly!! We have a set definition of what veganism is written by the founder, Donald Watson. I think that if someone wants to do something different than what he intended, they should also come up with their own word describing what they are.
I think that people have gotten too caught up in the statement "it's impossible to be 100% vegan". What we mean when we say that is that we all use computers, drive cars, etc. There are things that are impossible to avoid. But some people have taken that and twisted it to mean that they can wear leather or eat honey because "no on can be a perfect vegan anyway".
treehugga
Jun 7th, 2006, 06:26 AM
I agree with you Ravenfire. That was a good way to put it :)
jennyL
Jun 7th, 2006, 07:29 AM
I don't eat meat, seafood, dairy or eggs. I don't consider myself a vegan because my car has leather seats, and I have a LOT of old shoes and bags that are leather. I can't see myself ever purchasing anymore leather items, and I'd never buy another car with leather seats, but I do still use my old leather things. It's been my understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan. Anyway, I still use the leather things that I have. I would consider my diet to be vegan, but even then it's hard to know 100% for sure if the occasional non-vegan ingredient makes it's way into my diet, especially when dining out.
jennyL
Jun 7th, 2006, 07:34 AM
I also take many medicines for my asthma, I am sure that they have been tested on animals at some point, and some of the pills might contain some kind of animal product, but I continue to take them on a daily basis. Would a vegan stop taking medicines that were tested on animals? What if you needed these medicines to survive? I guess it's obvious that I am relatively new to a vegan lifestyle.
eve
Jun 7th, 2006, 11:11 AM
JennyL, in answer to your last two questions, if a vegan needs life-saving medication, they the life must surely come first. How can you possibly help animals if you are dead.
As to your understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan, that is up to the individual. Personally, but that's just me, once I took to a vegan lifestyle, there was no way that I'd be comfortable wearing leather goods. I think it's a bit different if your car has leather seats - you can hardly throw them out, but perhaps use seat covers. You are still a vegan.
And by the way, a vegan is a vegan - what is a "true vegan" that you refer to? There's no vegan rule book that lays down the law - it is up to the individual to avoid eating or wearing animal products, etc, to the best of their ability and circustance. Good luck. :)
Korn
Jun 7th, 2006, 11:35 AM
The term 'vegan' is defined by using the words 'avoiding animal products as far as practical and possible'. We live in a world not at all focused on avoiding animal products. Nobody expect vegans to move into a cave in the Himalayas in order to avoid animal products. I agree with Eve: if you need medicine, and due to circumstances you can't be held responsible for, only a non-vegan version of that medicine is available, it's not 'possible/practical' to live in a way that relies on a vegan version... it doesn't exist yet!
Remember that calling or writing a school, medical company or cafe and ask them to provide a vegan version of whatever they produce/provide has a lot more impact that just avoiding that non-vegan product. They may not even notice if you don't buy their product, but they will notice requests for future products. Maybe we should have a members only forum somewhere with standard letters/emails to kindergartens, media, canteens, hospitals, hotels etc requesting a wider variety of (information about) vegan options, with a short/good explanation about why many people want to avoid animal products?
DianeVegan
Jun 7th, 2006, 01:15 PM
That is a brilliant idea! Who is good at letter writing? Volunteers???:)
treehugga
Jun 8th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Now if only we can all agree on what a vegan is :D
Wishin986
Jun 8th, 2006, 12:28 PM
Now if only we can all agree on what a vegan is :D
details details ;)
eclectic_one
Jun 8th, 2006, 09:32 PM
JennyL, in answer to your last two questions, if a vegan needs life-saving medication, they the life must surely come first. How can you possibly help animals if you are dead.
As to your understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan, that is up to the individual. Personally, but that's just me, once I took to a vegan lifestyle, there was no way that I'd be comfortable wearing leather goods. I think it's a bit different if your car has leather seats - you can hardly throw them out, but perhaps use seat covers. You are still a vegan.
And by the way, a vegan is a vegan - what is a "true vegan" that you refer to? There's no vegan rule book that lays down the law - it is up to the individual to avoid eating or wearing animal products, etc, to the best of their ability and circustance. Good luck. :)
I agree Eve:D I know I still use some leather items that I aquired LONG before becoming vegan, but I am trying to "phase them out" as I do feel some growing cognitive dissonance about it. If anyone asked me why I wear leather, I would mention something out of one of Jo Stepaniak's books (and other vegan materials I've read): that sometimes buying new items would cause more environmental harm than using what you already have. Some of the "fake" leathers are actually very damaging to the environment or human rights (the treatment of the workers) and one pair I bought actually made my feet break out:eek: I have bought a couple of pair of vegan shoes since and love them:D I will not be buying any leather shoes in the future either! So even though I'm not happy about it, I am still, on occasion, wearing my leather shoes:( I do also have to take some medicines that I know were animal tested:(
treehugga
Jun 10th, 2006, 10:53 AM
Not if you source them properly !
Jesse
Jun 10th, 2006, 11:27 AM
I would rather call myself a vegetarian, even if don´t use leather, wool etc.. any animal product I can avoid.
Veganism is something I would rather distance myself from since it has some characteristics I don´t want to be associated with.
So I have resoveld my cognitive dissonance problem by calling myself vegetarian and not using any animal products.
treehugga
Jun 10th, 2006, 12:24 PM
Can i ask what those characteristics are? :)
poppy seed
Jun 11th, 2006, 04:34 PM
I don't eat meat, seafood, dairy or eggs. I don't consider myself a vegan because my car has leather seats, and I have a LOT of old shoes and bags that are leather. I can't see myself ever purchasing anymore leather items, and I'd never buy another car with leather seats, but I do still use my old leather things. It's been my understanding that a true vegan would not continue to use leather items, even if they were purchased before becoming vegan. Anyway, I still use the leather things that I have. I would consider my diet to be vegan, but even then it's hard to know 100% for sure if the occasional non-vegan ingredient makes it's way into my diet, especially when dining out.
Honestly, I could have written this word for word - right down to the damn leather seats on my '01 Jetta (which I can't afford to replace until I get the son graduated from college in two years). I hope you feel like you are making progress, JennyL - I know I do. I do tend to over explain things when I'm asked about it, though, and I am working on being a little more succinct.
Does anyone fear that veganism is becoming trendy, and having it's definition be diluted? Would it be good or bad to have more not-quite-true vegans misusing the definition?
Seaside
Jun 11th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Does anyone fear that veganism is becoming trendy, and having it's definition be diluted? Would it be good or bad to have more not-quite-true vegans misusing the definition?What bothers me about veganism seen as a trend, is that people misunderstand the reason for becoming vegan. People set out on a path towards veganism, and wherever they are on that path is good, as it is reducing animal exploitation to one degree or another. Some may never go so far as to make reduced animal suffering their main goal, and that's ok, I guess, because at least they are making more effort than most. But if a person is choosing this path just so that they may "qualify" for the vegan "label", they are missing the whole point, and when they then turn around and condemn ethical vegans for being too fanatical and exclusive because they won't accept a person who eats honey or uses second-hand leather as a vegan it is unfair. I personally feel that the definition of veganism is a simple one, and it must be maintained as it is, since none of us can live up to it 100%. Trying to dilute the definition to fit how a person lives, because that person won't live up to the main goal of veganism, is really kind of self-serving. And there is a big difference between those who can't, for various reasons like cost, or needing life-saving medication, and people who won't, because they think some aspects of veganism are too extreme.
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