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Sheila
Jun 2nd, 2006, 12:27 PM
I have been curious about this. I now it doesn't but what if being a vegan contributed to world hunger and environmental problems? Would you still be a vegan knowing it caused harm to the earth and others?

The reason I ask is that I sometimes feel guilty that I feel like I don't care enough about the environment in my reasons for being vegan. I love the animals and feel this is the only way to live for optimal health. But when it comes to world hunger or saving the environment I'm not as concerned.

I try to do what I can to be a good citizen of the world, but if it came down to it and I found out it was more wasteful growing crops then feeding livestock I would still be vegan. If world hunger were to be lessened by being a meat eater I would still be vegan.

Any thoughts?

Sheila

aubergine
Jun 2nd, 2006, 12:36 PM
For me the environment is my number two reason. It's a difficult question, because the fact is the envonmental effects of a meat based diet are horrific.

I would still be Vegan, because my number reason is that it's important for our health.

snaffler
Jun 2nd, 2006, 01:18 PM
That is a good question, I do not think VEGAN would = its current definition if it had a high impact on the evironment because in turn that effects animals as well, which is what the VEGAN definition is about really.

So if being vegan hurt the environemnt which in turn would hurt animals so I think their may be another alternative if that were the case.

If you look at off shoots Organic and Vegan together you would have an even less impact on the environment, but to have zero impact on the environment the human race in developed countries would need to change or end ans they have the biggest impact on our planets resources.

We all know as vegan we have an impact on our planet but are in a lower scale than a lot lifestyles by nature we are always trying to find new clean, cruelty free ways to live.

gogs67
Jun 2nd, 2006, 01:30 PM
To me ,it's like saying would you kill your mother to save your father?
They are both equally important and it's not a hypothesis that's gonna happen so i don't worry about it!:)
Thing is,with the evidence of global warming already pretty plain to see there are going to be mass species extinctions in the next 100 years whatever we do!

meggymaggoo
Jun 2nd, 2006, 01:42 PM
...erm, harming the environment WOULD harm ALL animals and, as a result, would not be vegan! :)

Sheila
Jun 2nd, 2006, 03:53 PM
I guess I was just rambling in my first post, thinking out loud. To me the 3 big things of being vegan are animals, health, and environment.

I became veggie for health and then vegan because I finally learned about the animals and the ethics.

I just have not fully grasped the environmental part yet. I contradict myself by my thoughts/actions. For example:

I have leather seats in my car which I bought about 4 years before I went vegan. I won't replace them even though they bother me because it would be wasting resources.

I buy as much organic as I can and garden organic to not harm the environment or my health but will use some chemical products that do.

I really would love to have an electric car but I cannot get one, but on the other hand I also want to buy a Hummer. (makes no sense)

I use items past any limits of use where the average person would have thrown them out but at the same time our house does not recycle.

I often waste electricity because I forget to turn things off and at the same time wish I had a solar powered house.

I feel like one of those people that feel bad about eating meat but do it anyway. I often feel bad about not being a better environmentalist but at the same time am either too stupid/lazy/(fill in the blank) to do anything about it.

I feel like I need to get really morally outraged like I did when I became a vegan. That is usually what motivates me for change.

Thanks,
Sheila

FR
Jun 2nd, 2006, 04:26 PM
I would be vegan if that were the case. I can't help the fact that I'm completely grossed out when it comes to the thought of consuming animal products and could never, under any circumstance see myself eating them again.

Kiran
Jun 2nd, 2006, 05:07 PM
Veganism embraces a wide range of ethical issues. In most cases ethics and environment are related. To me, the meat industry is the primary factor that contributes to the damage to the environment. Hence by being ethical i.e avoiding animal products I am also ethical towards the environment. In other words my life style does not contribute to environmental damage, directly or indirectly.

In the near future, if production of some plant or plant based product taxes the environment, then I would be a judge as to picking the best alternative. Or maybe even omiting it completely. But veganism offers a multitude of options. Pick the right one and still be a vegan.:)

Seaside
Jun 2nd, 2006, 06:15 PM
I would be vegan if that were the case. I can't help the fact that I'm completely grossed out when it comes to the thought of consuming animal products and could never, under any circumstance see myself eating them again.
Me too.

Stu
Jun 2nd, 2006, 07:43 PM
I most certainly would. I think its a disgrace people even care about global warming. How stupid. It doesnt exist!!!

aubergine
Jun 2nd, 2006, 10:46 PM
I most certainly would. I think its a disgrace people even care about global warming. How stupid. It doesnt exist!!!

*lights torch* Unbeliever!

veganwitch
Jun 2nd, 2006, 11:07 PM
My number one reason for being vegan is for the animals...so I'd continue to do it no matter what.

Stu
Jun 3rd, 2006, 02:56 PM
I most certainly would. I think its a disgrace people even care about global warming. How stupid. It doesnt exist!!!
Disclaimer: I should make it clear that 'my' last post was actually rather cheekily posted by Catmogg when I was logged in. She has been punished.

madpogue
Jun 3rd, 2006, 03:02 PM
She has been punished? For you walking away from an unsecured computer logged into VF? Hmpf....

^^^^^ What gogs said. I'm having trouble, aside from some extreme and not-too-consequential example here and there, constructing a scenario where the vegan option is the less environmental option.

Wildflower
Jun 4th, 2006, 12:26 AM
I use items past any limits of use where the average person would have thrown them out but at the same time our house does not recycle.

In my opinion, this is better than recycling. From what I know, recycling being better for the environment is debatable. Yes - it is good to keep things out of landfills - but people do not consider the energy it takes and waste it produces to run the factory that processes everything to do the actual recycling process. I think it may differ by what you are recycling...metal, paper, glass, oil, plastic, etc.

So, really the best thing to do is BUY LESS and keep what you buy!

mophoto
Jun 4th, 2006, 05:22 AM
I most certainly would. I think its a disgrace people even care about global warming. How stupid. It doesnt exist!!!

ha! i have been in many debates about this topic at work.... there was something on fox news (what a surprise) that said global warming didn't exist and if it did it got better in the last 50 years...oddly enough the bbc news had a big story on why and how it did..... i hate the idiots i work with....

to answer the question, as crazy as it is:) , yes!!! we are making a giant mess anyways!! why not do it with a conscience?--- i realize it it hypothetical:)

Stu
Jun 4th, 2006, 08:52 AM
She has been punished? For you walking away from an unsecured computer logged into VF? Hmpf....
Um, she hasn't really been punished. It was, like, y'know, a joke. I was there when she typed it. I let her.

Maisiepaisie
Jun 4th, 2006, 10:41 AM
I guess I was just rambling in my first post, thinking out loud. To me the 3 big things of being vegan are animals, health, and environment.

I became veggie for health and then vegan because I finally learned about the animals and the ethics.

I just have not fully grasped the environmental part yet. I contradict myself by my thoughts/actions. For example:

I have leather seats in my car which I bought about 4 years before I went vegan. I won't replace them even though they bother me because it would be wasting resources.

I buy as much organic as I can and garden organic to not harm the environment or my health but will use some chemical products that do.

I really would love to have an electric car but I cannot get one, but on the other hand I also want to buy a Hummer. (makes no sense)

I use items past any limits of use where the average person would have thrown them out but at the same time our house does not recycle.

I often waste electricity because I forget to turn things off and at the same time wish I had a solar powered house.

I feel like one of those people that feel bad about eating meat but do it anyway. I often feel bad about not being a better environmentalist but at the same time am either too stupid/lazy/(fill in the blank) to do anything about it.

I feel like I need to get really morally outraged like I did when I became a vegan. That is usually what motivates me for change.

Thanks,
SheilaSheila I am quite similar in this attitude. You will never get me out of my car and onto public transport. Its unreliable, dirty, expensive and overcrowded and I would probably drive a 4X4 too if I could afford one, although maybe not in this country as people make you feel guilty if you have one. I don't know what the big deal is with 4X4s. The environmental damage is nothing in comparison to aircraft.

I do try to do my bit for the environment but I know I could recycle more stuff than I do. I just can't be bothered. I think it could be made easier for people by the council providing special bins and have someone collect it.

I also leave lights on because its easier. The bathroom light is always on all night but I do use low energy bulbs.

Stu
Jun 4th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Crikey, I don't know if I should really be replying to this or not. To be honest Maisie, your post made me feel kind of angry! Not against you personally, but against the whole "I don't care" / "I can't be bothered" mentality.

You are correct that 4x4s have relatively insignificant environmental impact when compared to aeroplanes, but that doesn't make them OK, just because it's relatively small! It's still causing a lot of damage, for no reason. Pretty much nobody needs to drive a 4x4 in this country.
But I agree that we should be addressing the issue of aeroplanes, and the damage they cause. That is a bigger issue.

With regard to recycling, I suggest you contact your local council. Surely they have a scheme in place, whereby they will collect your recyclables? There's a good chance that they do, and you are simply unaware of it.

As for public transport: I use it every day, but then again, I'm in London so it's kind of a necessity. I'm strongly in favour of public transport use, but I think the government and local councils are getting it wrong. They need to lure people onto buses, trains and tube networks by making them cheaper, and more reliable. There's nothing I hate more than waiting for a bus to turn up. I mostly use the tube though myself, which is very reliable, but it's stupidly expensive and massively overcrowded. They really really really need to pump more money into public transport if they're genuinely concerned about the environment..

Maisiepaisie
Jun 4th, 2006, 09:10 PM
With regard to recycling, I suggest you contact your local council. Surely they have a scheme in place, whereby they will collect your recyclables? There's a good chance that they do, and you are simply unaware of it.I've already done this and the only thing they collect is newspaper once a fortnight. There is a scheme for collecting cans and bottles but my house is just outside the area for this. I do care and I do recycle glass, paper and plastic bottles but I admit I don't care enough to go out of my way and I could be doing more

With regards to public transport, if they address the issues I mentioned then I will consider it but I doubt that will ever happen as it wouldn't be profitable.

Sorry I know my attitude will piss people off as I am with meat eaters who can't be bothered but for me being vegan is easy but being completely environmentally friendly is a lot of hassel.
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princessemma
Jun 4th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I just have not fully grasped the environmental part yet. I contradict myself by my thoughts/actions.

I fully sympathise with this as I feel there are contridictions in my life as a vegan too;

I hate the idea of testing medicines on animals but I use prescription medicines, especially for my daughter and if I had cancer I would have chemotheraphy.

I put food scraps in my composter and I recycle paper and metal (door-door) but we don't have a collection for plastic and I don't recycle it.

I hate the obssesion we all have with carrier bags and try to remember to reuse them but often there are times when I forget and end-up bringing home more.

I've been vegan for eight months but still have my old leather shoes. I will replace them with non-leather ones but at the moment they are in good condition and I can't afford to throw them out.

I would never, ever let somone bring meat into my house but friends do bring their own cows milk for tea and coffee.

I desperately want to learn to drive!

I will eat things that do not contain eggs or dairy but are 'made in a factory that uses milk/eggs.'

I could go on and on. But I am trying to improve myself all the time. Surely thats all we can do.

Wildflower
Jun 5th, 2006, 02:44 AM
I will eat things that do not contain eggs or dairy but are 'made in a factory that uses milk/eggs.'

I still consider this very vegan. They clean the machines between uses, and it promotes sharing of one facility, verses having seperate "vegan facilities" which would contribute to more waste in the form of polution, more building costs, more electricity used, more polution from building the metal machinery for more than one factory, more metal mined for the machinery, etc.

1 factory verses 10 is definately better in my mind. If the world was perfect, vegan companies would obviously share with other vegan companies, but unfortunately it is not.

moonshadow
Jun 5th, 2006, 08:51 AM
for what it's worth, sheila, it sounds like you're on that slippery slope that leads towards being an environmentalist... you wouldn't be asking if you weren't thinking about it, you already do a lot more than a lot of people (including one i live with who thinks he's an environmentalist, but that's another story for another time.... some parents! sheesh).

i think i'd have to be vegan no matter what. i'm trying to make up some scenario in which it would be detrimental to the environment, just for the question's sake, and i can't think of anything that changes my mind. everything i think of, i think of a way around it...

but i don't think that's really what you're asking. you want to know how strong other people's environmentalist tendancies go, right?

for the most part we recycle what we can. we reuse what we can (i think that in some instances, reusing is better than recycling, because you're using something to the end of it's usefullness, rather than chucking it at first chance-- even recycling takes resources, you know?). but, i will admit that there are times that i chuck a glass bottle or a drink can into a rubbish bin while out and about. i make believe that someone is going to come along and dig through the bin to get all the recyclables out so they can make a bit of money at the recycling centre... but it doesn't work that way here. i really must stop doing this! find a way to hide my soda evidence (yeah, that's the main reason i do this... i don't want my husband to know that i drink about a soda a week... pathetic, hey?).

if your leather car seats don't bother you, i think it makes perfect sense to use them up, considering you weren't vegan when you bought them. as far as cars go, we don't drive. we imagine one day we will, but at the moment, it's not necessary for us. we have a good bus and train system. when we lived in california we both had cars, and bryce had a long commute. i will admit that i didn't drive as much as i might have, but that was more about me than about the environment-- i dislike driving.

i am constantly being reminded that i need to turn off computers, lights, the oven..... it's something i know i should do, but it's not habit. i'm working on this. i don't know why it isn't habit. one day it will be!


anyway, it sounds like your thoughts are getting there, you know some areas in your life that you could change, and you probably will start to soon.

take recycling-- it's remarkably easy to do, but you usually don't realize that until a few months after you've started doing it. get a couple extra bins, put them in easy to get to places, and start sorting your recycling at home. contact your city, or look in the phone book for places to recycle.

dream of an electric hummer :)

little changes, you know?

vegan1969
Jun 5th, 2006, 10:14 AM
If you save the planet in an attempt to sustain life, assuming that's the reason for saving the environment, and kill off large amounts of life that's on the planet (eating animals) then it seems somewhat redundant to me. There is a flip side to this, in the long run if you harm the environment to the point that it can no longer sustain any life and all life dies as a result then that is also redundant.

I guess you would have to tally up the number of all the animals killed, in the meantime, while you're trying to save the environment and compare to the number of lives saved in the long run. It almost sounds like a loose-loose situation, you either directly kill billions of lives (animals) along the way to save who knows how many lives in the long run.

If you are directly killing animals from now to infinity in an attempt to save the planet, I have a feeling and would love to know for certain, then the billions of animals killed yearly along the way will probably be much higher than the amount of lives saved in the long run. Your question could lead into a long debate or a book.

I'm going to have to say that I want to preserve the earth yet my main concerns are for the immediate animal and human life on the planet.

I would definately still be vegan.

Maisiepaisie
Jun 5th, 2006, 10:19 AM
Is their anyone here who would wash out and recycle a forgotten jar/can of mould found lurking at the back of the fridge? If there is then you should be proud of yourself! I'm always chucking these away :o