To mainsteam or to boycott?

[cwih57]

I don't mind buying mainstream for the reasons listed previously. I know that others disagree but I think it damages the movement as a whole to appear to "far-out" or "like a bunch of crazy hippies" Making veganism approuchable is the key (I feel) to getting it to the masses.

[BRobinson]

i think the vegan movement runs the risk of being marginalized perpetually if it chooses to go the boycott route and reject the mainstream.

People identify themselves by what they are not. Republicans aren't hippies, Hippies aren't fascists, etc. As can be seen in the recent spate of fast food commercials advertising to men, the male population in the US identifies itself as not vegetarian, not emotional, not concerned with superficial details, etc.

As such, what we need to avoid is allowing the mainstream population of the US to identify themselves as not vegan, as not vegetarian. To do so, we have to in a way assimilate, we have to work to not distance ourselves from our comrades. We originated as a marginalized group, with vegetarian once being a laughable state. We need to continue escaping from the margin. To fight mainstreaming is to fight against the very goal of getting the rest of the population to stop eating our fellow animals.

In summary, go mainstream folks.

[madpogue]

The other issue here is whether, in general, to buy local or corporate. I stopped buying McD's long before I went veg*n. If you really want to "vote with your dollars (pounds, drachmas...)", buying local, and using local currency when possible, sends multiple messages, about not only the politics (food, animals, etc), but the economics as well. When you spend a dollar (etc) locally, 2/3 of it stays in the community. When you spend one on a corporate business, 2/3 of it leaves the community.

Travel? That's where some Internet research really helps. The last few times I've travelled to other cities, I found out enough about local businesses in those cities to patronize them when I went. Not only did that address the typical "vegan on the road" issues, I got to see more of the real places I was visiting, and kept at least a few dollars in their communities.

[coconut]

I think it depends on the company. I still buy things from mainstream businesses. I hardly ever buy fast food but if Mcdonalds had a vegan option I still wouldn't eat there. There are many companies I do boycott and these are companies which are doing serious harm and, by being so big, exercise a huge amount of control over what people eat and what's available. So companies like Nestle, Tesco, Mcdonalds etc. are out. It would be very hard to get by if you avoided every company which is involved with things you disagree with. I choose to boycott those that are guilty of the worst crimes.

[veggiewoman]

Yes the chocolate company.

They are targeting third world countries by selling and promoting poor quality powdered milk to women. It is promoted as a healthy option for their children. Women are doing this and not breastfeeding as a result, which means their children are not getting essential nutriments that they need and their health is suffering as a result. Nestles are also connected to Loreal, another company with appalling ethics. While we support these companies who are perpetrating these types of abuses, we are sending out a message that we are condoning their actions.


here's the link that explains about it:
http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html


I am always wondering what to do re where to buy vegan goodies.
I am not a great fan of supermarkets taking over and destroying small businesses regardless of how much cheaper they appear to be (IMO they will only stay cheap till they have forced out every small independent business and then their prices will rocket) , My dilema I find myself in is , do I support smaller businesses that sell the vegan goodies and thats how they partly survive, or do I encourage supermarkets to sell them and therefore maybe showing more "to the masses" by buying them there? Does that make sense? I find a happy mdeium by buying from both but I still feel undecided.

As for boycotting or mainstream- IMO money talks and the fewer people that buy from these evil companies the better, they should hopefully get a message.

[treehugga]

What I've admired about the vegan movement has been their ethics and that despite not going along with the masses, we are so supportive of each other and our beliefs re animal rights. Are we then to support corrupt mainstream companies for fear of others opinions about us? Even though these companies abuse human and animals rights! I would rather support smaller ethical companies who are trying to do the right thing and educate people as to why I do this. Lots of people do this - not just vegans, so I don't think we really run the risk of being frowned upon as a group by the rest of society. I would rather buy a vegan chocolate bar from a small vegan company than a vegan choc bar from a large corporation that is contributing to the deaths of children or animals. Our pockets and where we spend our money speak volumns. The vegan and vegetarian movement is growing and with this we have the power to change things. It would be good if the changes included supporting the companies who have supported us and not the mainstreams who are all profit and just out for a buck.

[Troutina]

At the end of the day I couldn't actually live with the guilt of consciously buying a product just so that I fit in with the mainstream and to appear 'accessible'.

If no one boycotted anything we'd fumble along destroying the planet even more so.

I am such a strong believer in individual change- every person does make a difference.

[treehugga]

I agree Troutina.

Women would still be unable to vote or divorce. Govts would devastate the environment even more than they do now and a lot more animals would continue to be harmed. If we didn't speak out and educate.

[Soyalicius]

Personally I botcott evil companies as much as possible. I would never buy feed from Macdonalds because of there corruption. I used to get delicious homous and salad sandwiches from Preta Manager then found out they were owned my Macdonalds grrr, no more going there.

Sometimes it is so hard. Boycotting Nestle is something I am very strict with and then they go buying out all other little companies. But still I feel I can only do my best.

Still I would not buy from L'Oreal, prpctor and gamble, nike addidas or other companies that exploit animals and children, that I know of.

It is a minefiled out there, so hard at times.

I hope this reads as understandable, there are so many issues.:confused:

[treehugga]

It is difficult. I also send the companies a letter telling them why I am choosing to boycott. It does make a difference.

[Soyalicius]

One thing that is going to be hard, now I have a baby. Is that when he gets older and his mates want parties at Macdonalds. Do I let him go or now? Because Macevil gets into the minds of children thinking how wonderful he is this is going to be a problem.

Anyone else had this problem with their little ones??

[pat sommer]

regarding birthday parties... since my little one started asking questions (about 2 years old) I have given her honest answers; she is a 4 yr old vegan of her own choice. Trust your kids.

Boycott: me personally, all the above mentioned abusers. But, having said that, I take the position I learned in the Bagavad Gita: best choices for the spiritual state the person is in. So, if someone could not IMAGINE living without fast food I would recommend places with vegan options. And if the group I happened to be with HAD to stop at such a place I might innocently ask for healthy food at the counter for the fatties to overhear then settle for OJ! And of course I am always laden with goodies to share....

[treehugga]

One thing that is going to be hard, now I have a baby. Is that when he gets older and his mates want parties at Macdonalds. Do I let him go or now? Because Macevil gets into the minds of children thinking how wonderful he is this is going to be a problem.

Anyone else had this problem with their little ones??

Yes I've posted on this issue a number of times I think in the 'McDonalds' thread and 'what did your kids eat today' thread.

It's only become a problem for me now that my son has turned 4. Most of his friends eat at Macs. I have explained why we don't eat there and what most of their food consists of and this used to work until recently. He now wants to eat there whatever the cost and I now resort to just saying 'no' and finding vegan substitutes, like pizza or something. However, he is still not satisfied with that and feels I am some how cheating him.

[herbwormwood]

However, he is still not satisfied with that and feels I am some how cheating him.

Don't let his feelings influence you to give in. You are the adult and you are in charge, he has to eat what you feed him, same as any other child does. At 4 years of age he cannot make informed healthy choices.
Obviously his freinds are influencing him and peer pressure is a powerful thing. But don't let him get the impression you are worried about not pleasing him, children can pick up on subtle signs from their parents. If you give this impression, he'll try harder to get you to let him eat there.
Try to plan your routes so you don't pass Mc's, as if he sees their logos he will pester more.

[treehugga]

Don't let his feelings influence you to give in. You are the adult and you are in charge, he has to eat what you feed him, same as any other child does. At 4 years of age he cannot make informed healthy choices.
Obviously his freinds are influencing him and peer pressure is a powerful thing. But don't let him get the impression you are worried about not pleasing him, children can pick up on subtle signs from their parents. If you give this impression, he'll try harder to get you to let him eat there.
Try to plan your routes so you don't pass Mc's, as if he sees their logos he will pester more.

No I don't intend to give in - I despise McDonalds and if he wants to eat it he'll have to wait til he's old enough to spend his own money on it. They're not getting 1 red cent of mine. It still doesn't make it easy. There's a Mc's right near his creche and one directly across from where he does Karate. I dread it if he ever gets asked to a birthday party there. I don't want to isolate him from other kids either. We don't know any other veg*n families and I live in a rural town and would have to travel about 2 hours for a veg*n social outing which I do twice a year.:(

[pat sommer]

your in a tight spot Treehugga! I guess I have had it easy here in the UK as McD Bdays aren't the norm. I don't actually forbid my 4 yr old but (with some guilt) I have exposed her to some graphic details; perhaps pictures in the near future. And, if and when, as kids do, she experiments I can console myself with the knowledge that a good overdose of grease can create a lifelong veggie!
Finding cool alteratives for parties is tricky: I brought in a guy that folded bamboo animals for her nursery bday party; that went down like a lead balloon. When she went to another childs party I loaded her up on treats first so that she honestly wasn't tempted. It is a minefield out there!

[lavender]

My children are a bit older, nearly 9 yrs and a 12 yr old. The elder one goes out with his friends, none of which are vegetarian or vegans, Ive told him its his choice (when they are tiny we make the choices for them like any parent does) and he choses not to eat meat, drink milk etc, Ive suggested alternatives should he be faced with what to do if they suggest going into McD's for instance. Just so that he was more prepared really, than to influence him ;) , I asked him what he would do if the 'gang' wanted McDs and he said he would suggest they go the chip shop as an alternative preferably the Chinese takeaway as we know exactly what they fry in their oil and what oil they use. He will not set foot in McD's - his choice. They all know his choices and have no probs with it. Most of the time they nip into different shops and get a drink and crisps, he just usually selects to be hungry near the health food store where he knows whats safe LOL. I felt we needed to go over strategies so he didnt flap and feel awkward. he was glad we did.

My younger son will not attend parties at McD's, they are more en vogue for the younger kids Id say the 5 - 8 age range. Luckily there is a huge choice of party venues where I live, giving a hot or cold option, most opt for the cold choice, so its buffet style, which is a bonus for families like ours, you can always take stuff yourself to add to the buffet. If my youngest is invited to a party I make sure that the Mum knows our choices and if its a prob (which it never has been so far) he skips the food, having eaten first, Ive found at most parties, the kids hardly eat anything anyway, they are far more occupied with playing and running riot !

[Daniel]

And supporting foods that are "accidentally vegan" really don't send the message across. If a diner offered items that were specifically vegan (as in, they promoted it as vegan) and it wasn't just a regular entree that just happened to be animal-free, I would be much more compliant to try it, as I feel that sends more of a message.

Right, I've seen this "accidentally vegan" phase thrown around and it is something I cannot take serriously.

There was a diner in Fairfield, Conn, that offered specifically vegan items (including french fries). While the diner wasn't all vegetarian, it was way ahead of McDonald's. Unfortunately the diner closed recently. Better to support a vegan friendly diner than corporation like McDonald's, but it is best to support an all vegan restaurants when possible.

[treehugga]

your in a tight spot Treehugga! I guess I have had it easy here in the UK as McD Bdays aren't the norm. I don't actually forbid my 4 yr old but (with some guilt) I have exposed her to some graphic details; perhaps pictures in the near future. And, if and when, as kids do, she experiments I can console myself with the knowledge that a good overdose of grease can create a lifelong veggie!
Finding cool alteratives for parties is tricky: I brought in a guy that folded bamboo animals for her nursery bday party; that went down like a lead balloon. When she went to another childs party I loaded her up on treats first so that she honestly wasn't tempted. It is a minefield out there!

I do recall seeing a few whimpy bars when i was there. I still giggle at the name :D

[Demon]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them.

I do tend to buy from mainstream companies if the product is vegan, but I try to fire off emails to customer service departments asking 'is this product vegan ?' or 'can you send me your vegan list' even if they publish on thier websites.

The more enquiries they get, the more visible the issue will be to them.

[my3labs]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them.

Very good point, Demon.

[treehugga]

I always do.

I think it's even more important to support ethical, fair trade and vegan companies and educate the people around you re these companies. Most of my workplace now does this and that's 25 people that may not have if they haden't been informed of these companies. The bigger and more popular these companies become the more accessable they are to more people. They deserve the support. They are putting in the hard yards because of what they believe in and I feel I owe it to them to offer my support.

[Barry]

boycotting is a fine line for me, while i would never eat at mcdonalds, wear nike, adidas ect. for obvious reasons, i do shop regularly at tesco because i don't really feel like i have much choice. i live in the west of ireland, health food shops are ridiculously expensive and the range of food suitable for vegans in irish supermarkets is basically non-existant bar veggies. i have little money as a mature student who's just spent a year being what basically amounts to being an intern and getting paid roughly one third of the national average industrial wage. my girlfriend is in her final year honours degree so she's broke too, especially with ireland being the second most expensive country in europe(it's really ridiculously over the top here, a fact hammered home by a summer on mainland europe last year) i despise the way tesco conduct their business but i find myself in there every week despite this. i'm not really trying to justify myself, it's my choice and if i really didn't want to i wouldn't shop there. anybody else find their finacial situation takes priority sometimes?

[Tempest]

Most of the companies I boycott have committed many abhorent crimes over the years. I think that even if they tried to cater to me, I'd have to reject them. I, being relatively new at this, find new things and reasons to boycott every day. It seems that pretty soon I'll be boycott everything but the local farmer's co-op and bicycle shop.

[cwih57]

If you boycot a product or company, how do they know that they lost a sale ? If you do, then I think it is important to tell them]

When I do "actively" boycott a product which is rarely I always send 3 letters (if I can locate all three people) one to head of marketing one to product development and one to the head of the company, I think this way I have a better chance of someone with desicion making power seeing my concerns.

I answer the e-mail that come in on our companys website (several 100 a day) and e-mails that say they are going to boycott get one of two responses depending on my mood 1) I simply delete it 2) I write a sarcastic "Thank you for your comment and have a great day!" and do nothing.

I assume the same thing happens at most large commerical websites, thats why I avoid simpy sending an e-mail.

When I thought more about it I deceided that I take sort of a "love the sinner hate the sin" approuch to purchases, I don't buy anything that isn't vegan, but I don't rule out shopping at thoughs places for products that are. I think if enough people make there concerns known and don't buy non-vegan products, then the problem will be well on its way to solvingitself, products that don't sell stop being produced, then the offending companies will be motivated to reform to get customers