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thanks Pob, i've heard that before but i agree that it doesn't seem worth mutilating children for, when condoms or abstinence would have the same effect (not quite as drastic as castration either! :p)
If someone did post such a comment, unlike you I would not be upset, I'd realise that he had his tongue in the side of his mouth (and no, that's not to be taken literally, what I mean is, I would accept his sense of humour). Of course I'd never make fun of anyone's body parts, what do you think I am?Quote:
Since you don’t answer my question directly, I’ll assume that, like me, you would be very upset if you saw a male on this forum post a statement like, “I don’t like women with small breasts, I think they are yucky.” I‘m sure you’ll agree; making fun of or belittling other people’s body parts is not part of a polite, adult conversation. Also, please excuse my failure in recognizing your statement as being ironic; I’m just an American.
Anyhow, this thread was supposed to be seeking opinions. Instead it has turned into a tirade against circumcision/abuse. Who would dare to go against the majority here and say, hey, I quite like the look of a circumcised man. Just chill will you? :D
That's what I reckon. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion here. :)
The word "mutilation", which has been used various times on this thread, is quite subjective. One of my ex-boyfriends was circumcised and he was fine with it. I sympathise with those who have been circumcised and are unhappy with the decision that was made, but that's not always the case.
Would you not agree, though, that it shouldn't be the parent's decision to make? Either it's needed on medical grounds and a doctor will make the decision, or it shouldn't be done at all.
Whether some people prefer it or not is immaterial until they are old enough to make their own decision.
I see it on a par with tail docking and mulesing.
I do see your point Pob. But every parent makes choices for their children, they have to. I do realise though that as a woman it's impossible for me to identify fully with the pain it's caused you.
I don't think we're getting something out of calling people 'child abusers', but as a comment to this thread, there in many European (and other) countries it's quite common to consider circumcision child abuse. Laws against 'FMG' ("Female Genital Mutilation") exist in many countries.
It's hard for me to see how using a knife on any part of a little boy (and especially on his genitals) can be seen as such a different thing. In France they don't have a special law against circumcision/FMG, but people have been put in jail with reference to the law about child abuse.
That laws against genital mutilation of animals exist, but no law against cutting in the penises of small baby boys surprises me - and I guess, seems strange to lots of people where I live, because circumcision isn't part of our tradition at all. It's something we were just told - as kids - that happened in some weird other country. Just hearing about it was frightening, and reminded me og stories about Chinese women forced to wear shoes to get small feet, woman doing weird stuff to get very long necks, or those American Indians who for some reason put something in their lower lip. Modifying genitals seemed (and still seems) like something more dramatic than modifying feet, lips or necks...
Although it exists in various forms, FGM does seem to involve a more serious and dangerous operation than male circumcision. In addition it sometimes seems to be intended to remove the person's ability to enjoy sex, which isn't true of male circumcision. Not that I am advocating either procedure.
Someone else pointed out earler that in North America, the origin of circumcision was in fact to reduce the person's ability to enjoy sex (more specifically, masturbation).
True, although I have read other explanations of its origins - this site is quite interesting (in a gruesome kind of way):
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/
Thanks Pob for sorting out the link I tried to post. I think that the only reason for circumcising a little boy should be for health reasons. It was for health reasons that one of my husband's younger brothers had this happen to him and so they took my husband along for the same too although there were no reason for him! He was 7 at the time. It's never been a big deal for him, although he remembers it hurting afterwards and having to dip the wounded area in a cold cup of tea! Poor thing.
I know someone who had it done for medical reasons and he never had any problems.
And i agree that it should only be done for medical reasons to.
I'm starting to wonder how people in North America can have such a laid-back attitude about circumcision. Like Korn said, it's considered strange and frightening in cultures where it's unheard of. But it's so normal here that barely anyone bats an eye about it. I can almost make the analogy to (and please don't attack me for saying this) people who have a laid-back attitude about eating meat and think it's perfectly normal. It's something that they do, and their parents did, and it's something that's just....done, no questions asked. Meanwhile people from predominantly vegetarian cultures who have never eaten meat may think that the idea is strange, frightening and disgusting.
It's interesting to think of the sorts of things that some people are conditioned to find totally normal and others find totally appalling.
I don't think I would have the heart to do that to a baby. If I had a son I would be celebrating and welcoming the boy to the world with love. I couldn't then just hand him over to have his genitals cut. I might even kind of feel like I betrayed the kid.
And maybe human genitals are supposed to be ugly and stinky so that if you put your face down there, it's because you love the person.
I think there is a big difference between a female and male circumcision. As I understand, in a female the whole "pleasure center" is cut off and the vagina sawn toegther leaving just a tiny opening. I believe this to be very painful for a woman, who will never feel sexual pleasure and will most likely have an extremely painful birth.
I'm personally not in favor of male circumcision, but a man can still function normally and will most likely not have any future medical or sexual problems. That's the difference right there.
FGM cannot be compared to circumcision. A penis is perfectly fine whether or not it is circumcised, but a young woman who has suffered FGM is in an absolutely different space.
That's because it is not in your culture. Neither is FGM in mine, but even in muslim areas in France, Africa and other places women protest about it, and try to bring an end to the horrid practice. I have yet to see any circumcised man, apart from the witch-hunters on this forum, protesting about circumcision.Quote:
It's hard for me to see how using a knife on any part of a little boy (and especially on his genitals) can be seen as such a different thing.
Of course it does, and as you say,Quote:
That laws against genital mutilation of animals exist, but no law against cutting in the penises of small baby boys surprises me
Who's changing the subject?Quote:
it is because circumcision isn't part of our tradition at all. ... Just hearing about it was frightening, and reminded me of stories about Chinese women forced to wear shoes to get small feet, woman doing weird stuff to get very long necks, or those American Indians who for some reason put something in their lower lip. Modifying genitals seemed (and still seems) like something more dramatic than modifying feet, lips or necks...
What I seriously want to know, Korn, is whether a question asked on a thread HAS to be answered the way you and everyone else believes (with a couple of kind exceptions) because when I gave my sincere response I was jumped on in a very nasty way. Where on earth is the moderator, or perhaps the moderator believes in witch hunts too? :(
Eve, I understand that this thread was for getting opinions and not to fall into confrontations. As vegans, some/most members (including myself) do not believe in causing pain to any living being and that includes babies. Please don't take it personally, it is a very emotional subject since it concerns pain. When people disagree to something they tend to be open as to why they disagree. It might be a cultural thing for you, but for many others it is a violation of their fundamental principles.
I don't think anyone has branded anyone as a witch. Of course people disagree with your views on the subject but quoting your statements does not imply they are attacking you. I disagree with you too, but I don't judge people based on such issues.Quote:
I have yet to see any circumcised man, apart from the witch-hunters on this forum, protesting about circumcision.
i did go to my sister's son's circumcision years ago and i was horrified and couldn't understand why my sister had arranged to get that done.
i had to go and stand outside and didn't feel much like talking to anyone for the rest of the day.
needless to say my son has not been circumcised, the idea didnt even cross my mind!
Plenty of men who have been circumcised are not happy about it! And not just on this forum. The major religions are hardly going to get behind a campaign against male circumcision, now, are they, unlike with female circumcision.
I would have thought that veganism and enforced circumcision of babies for non-medical reasons would not be ideologically compatible.
I don't see infant circumcision as any different as compusory mastectomies that are performed to girls deemed at a high risk of breast cancer.
Without explicit consent at an age when the person can understand the gravity of the situation it is mutilation.
And would anyone be happy with their body being mutilated?
No. Of course not.
Hi Eve,Quote:
What I seriously want to know, Korn, is whether a question asked on a thread HAS to be answered the way you and everyone else believes (with a couple of kind exceptions) because when I gave my sincere response I was jumped on in a very nasty way. Where on earth is the moderator, or perhaps the moderator believes in witch hunts too?
this thread is about our views on circumcision. It's not only a yes/no-poll, it's natural to explain why we are pro or against against circumcision. I'm totally against circumcision; I'm against harming other living beings, causing physical pain, trauma, fear in them. Children and babies are more vulnerable than any of us. If we answer the question that is being asked, we are not witch hunters! It can't be expected that people who think circumcision is a horrible thing to do against an innocent child should not say it because someone else thinks it's OK.
It's totally understandable that people eat meat if they have been brought up with eating meat, many cannibal kids probably ate human meat without questioning it much, and I don't blame people brought up in a culture where circumcision is considered 'normal' for doing what they do - it's not these people I'm against, it's the action. And I know the difference between male circumcision and removing the clitoris of a woman.
No. There's a lot of stuff that's not part of our culture that I'm defending/justifying etc., and there's a lot of things happening in our culture I totally disagree with.Quote:
That's because it is not in your culture
If the subject is circumcision, and someone - like me - see a clear parallel to other traditions imposing pain in children, a comment about this isn't only relevant, but maybe needed if others shall understand how we see it. As a kid, I probably wouldn't have questioned circumcision if everybody else around me accepted it, but as an adult I not only question it, I'm against it. Most people follow the traditions of their own country, which is why I think "most people" feel that a lack of laws no laws against cutting in the penises of small baby seems strange to them.Quote:
Who's changing the subject?
But have you seen any non-circumcised men accepting someone using a knife on their penis without having asked for it? Or trying to do it on themselves? See the links below.Quote:
I have yet to see any circumcised man, apart from the witch-hunters on this forum, protesting about circumcision.
Where I live, there have been laws against removing parts of an animal (ear, tail) since 1974; it has been part of our culture (for a while) to do such things. There haven't been any laws against removing parts of human penises. It has been shown that circumcised can cause stress, pain hyper-sensityvty and disturb the mother/child relationship.
Scandinavians reading this thread may be interested in this article about problems caused by male circumcision. This is also interesting (but Norwegian).
Here are some other links (all articles in English) - for those who have missed that a massive campaign against (male) circumcision has been going on for quite a while:
:
DOCTORS OPPOSING CIRCUMCISION
Mothers Against Circumcision
The case against circumcision
National Organization to Halt the Abuse and Routine Mutilation of Males
VIDEOS about CIRCUMCISION
Another video - warning - with sound
Circumcision Information Australia
Catholics against circumcision
Jews Against Circumcision
Protect Boys Too!
Attorneys for the right of the child
NURSES for the RIGHTS of the CHILD
Dear Eve, again: this isn't about witch-hunting parents who have been circumcising their kids, it's about defending the rights of a child; the right not not be 'interfered with' by others. Vegans are pr. definition against harming human and non-human animals. The links above show that one doesn't need to be a vegan to agree that circumcision is unnecessary, painful and definitely very similar to the interference in the lives and choices of other, living beings that we vegans are so much against.
It's interesting to see how circumcision is viewed by different people in different countries. Some see it as "mutilation", others see it as merely cosmetic, some do it for what they say are health reasons and some do it for cultural reasons (eg, Jewish people).
All the men in my family were circumsized and the men that I have been intimate with have all been circumsized too. The only one who wasn't was born and raised in a small village in Serbia.
So, for a lot of people in a lot of places in the world, circumsizion is an acceptable practice.
Just because someone believes in it and someone else doesn't - doesn't make anyone "right" or "wrong". It just makes them have a different opinion on the matter. And THAT is my opinion :)
I find it interesting that its acceptable to religions, believing that humans were created by an all-knowing all-powerful god and then at best vandalising their creation or at worst saying that he/she/it didn't do a very good job and correcting their mistake.
But would you say I was abusing my cat if I her ears pierced? What about putting a ring through a bull's nose? If those are abuse, how is lopping the skin off of an infant's penis not abuse?
Cheers,
rant
PS. Sorry if that point's been made. I haven't read the whole thread yet. I just had to get that out.
Ah but Rant, don't you know it is not politically correct these days for us to criticise circumcision even though it is as cruel as those examples you mentioned, this is just in case we are seen as anti-semitic or some such nonsense!!! No one can say certain things without being branded a racist or anti-semite or anti-muslim these days. It's PC gone mad when we are asked to respect such abuse.
I have a Jewish (veggie!) friend whose father did not speak to her for several years because she had the guts to refuse the barbaric practice of circumcision for her son. There are some weird religious fundamentalists in so many religions and people are afraid to offend them. I'm surprised my friend ever spoke to her father again actually rather than the other way round.
I think name calling is wrong. To call someone a child abuser is very hurtful. So would you say all jews are child abusers? I for one would never make such a statement. I am sure eve is a wonderful mother to her children.
I would never get my sons done? If i had a daughter would i get her ears pierced while she was a baby? no i wouldnt. Do i think its ok to hurt anyone for not good reason? no i dont. I hope i have answered your questions.
It's quite possible to disapprove of a practice while treating people who believe in it with respect.
In return, though, I think the people who think it's OK should listen to the objections with respect.
Discussions are a waste of time if people aren't prepared to listen to opposing views.
without getting into too much graphic detail, my vote is against.
I'm not trying to defend female genital cutting, but there are actually several forms of the practice. They vary in severity from the worst, as you have described, to only the clitoral hood being cut, with several forms of moderate severity in between.
I wonder wonder which came first; femal or male genital cutting, and if it can be a slippery slope once it is decided that it is normal to cut babies' genitals.
i think it is very wrong to choose to cut off a part of a baby's penis - no matter what cultural or religious beliefs you have. i think it is the same as cutting of a dogs ears or tail:( and it's not nessecary in any way.
it is not a problem with the hygiene, as long as you care just a little bit about washing. to me, it seems a bit like choosing to get your teeth removed, cause you don't wanna brush them:confused:
i really would NEVER choose this for a child. it's fine with me, if it's someone who's capable of choosing it for himself (a teenager or adult), but WHY should it be nessecary to do to a baby? i just don't get it, and i think it's very wrong and abusive, that it's so accepted in so many places and seen as a part of "normality" in so many societys.¨
i have no doubt that a lot of the parents who choose to get this done, are really trying to do the best for their children. but i think that this is a lot like the issue on milk; apparantly it's supposed to be healthy, but that's mainly cause you don't get told otherwise. i really think that people should question these things instead of just relying on the rest of the society to choose for them; i'm sure most of us agree that society is wrong on many issues! and i think that this is one of them, aswell as eating non-vegan foods.
No, I wouldn't call them child abusers. I was making a comparison and giving people food for thought. I am trying to get a handle on what I perceive as a conflict between veganism and having an infant circumcized. I'm not trying to be the vegan police, but I see it as a conflict and I'd like to understand it.
Cheers,
rant
i think it would be helpful if we had some reallife comparisons.
i.e., guys in this forum who have or have not been circumcised, but then again, how can you really say wen you've only experienced one or the other :confused:
it's so obviously an assault on an innocent baby who can't speak for thems elves and who, if they could, would without any doubt in the world say no as their minds are still innocent too and they have not yet been forced fed religious dogma so how could anyone ever say that they have the right to do that?
having said that, once its done its done and they most probably grow up the same as everyone else and hopefully it doesnt bother them that much eccept for one thing,
they have been 'branded'' for life before they ever have a chance to decide for thems elves that they wish to be part of the religion of their parents and that is definately not right either !