Unless you want to confess to having fantasies about woollen, leather, silk or fur ones! :pQuote:
terrace max
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Unless you want to confess to having fantasies about woollen, leather, silk or fur ones! :pQuote:
terrace max
Isn't that what this forum is? Or are there special people and subjects that must never be challenged?Quote:
adam antichrist
Just be sure to pick the right people to disagree with, and you'll be fine.
Korn, thanks for the link. You should add "mecahnic" under "Kornator". because it looks like you can fix almost anything.
I am suprised that the spider thing has been brought up. As i said before for those who have not read the posts, that people act differently when confronted by there worse fear, the poor girl was petrified. I also understand why people can get upset by reading something like that, but maybe when people are crying and hating themselves for what they did then maybe its time to sit back and think about what we say to those people so they dont hate themselves anymore than they do already ;)
LOL :D
Would that be a confession?
(OK, I'll get my coat...)
As a last comment, I think this is a very common way of look at 'forbidden fruits'... If you don't call yourself a vegan now, but find animal products less appealing and therefore will use them less, I guess you have come to a solution that is both better for you and the animals you don't eat. I'm glad you brought this thing up, because I'm convinced that there are thousands of vegans out there who have or have had the same issues. As I wrote, we don't need to overdo the 'confession club'-thing, but I have a feeling that dealing with the 'grey zone' could need more focus: if all people dealt with 'i have problems with being vegan' whenever it came up they way you have done, my feeling is that less animals would get killed in the future.Quote:
Banana
People are different. Very different. If 'disciplined' people expect that the 100% 'pure and disciplined' way works for everybody else, they might make the situation more difficult for people with different personalities - needlessly.Quote:
Seaside
Even if we forget about this particular case now (I'm not really interested in who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'), I think it's important to deal with the fact that different methods work for different people. Most non-vegans may think being vegan requires too much discipline, or they may falsely believe that it requires elements of self-denial. Let's say that some people are more 'discipline-oriented', but others are more 'freedom-oriented' (not good labels, I know, but the best I can come up with right now). Here comes the area that IMO needs more focus: If the 'discipline-oriented' people are to give advice to the 'freedom-oriented' people, without understanding that their 'methods' may not work for others (or may even have the opposite effect), there is a very realistic chance that the 'freedom-oriented' people would just go 'I'm not ready for this yet. Too much discipline required. I'll skip becoming vegan for now - maybe I'm a better person in 5 years, will try again then. Goodbye'.
I'm an example of the opposite. The cravings are totally gone, and I have given myself permission to give in for a craving once in a while in the past. Now, I'm not going to do the same mistake that I'm describing, and say that my method will work for everybody. It might be totally wrong for someone, or be wrong (or right) most of the time, but not always.Quote:
If a person decides to give themselves permission to give in to a craving every once in a while, the addiction will never end. I am here to say to people struggling with these cravings that, as a 20-year vegan, they will go away.
It sure is, but getting there may not be easy if we don't know ourselves and try to follow the advice of someone very different from ourselves - or if we pretend that we are something which we are not.Quote:
Being a vegan is EASY.
Some great posts there from several people and Korn in particular. I agree that the "grey zone" does need support - it's mostly about creative and compassionate people coping with the realisation that if they want to be themselves they will be different, and being firghtened of that and feeling excluded and deprived. Sometimes it takes a while to realise that you will deprive yourself more by not being yourself, while also gradually wearing yourself down with the realisation that by lurking on the fringes of your potential you are also causing all sorts of unnecessary suffering. I do think it's a pity that Banana felt she was not getting support on that journey - particularly since it's a road many of us here have had to travel.
Cheers
Mike aka Michael
No.Quote:
Seaside
Exactly what is this "slip" thing? To me, it would be a MOMENT of weakness where one eats an animal product, not that they planned for months or craved for months this item. Also, it could be an unintentional ingestion, either forgetting to check ingredients or being lied to, et cetera.
But a planned relapse and surrendering of the "vegan" label because you don't want the label anymore? How is that a slip? To me, that's saying, "This isn't about the animals anymore - it's about me and my cravings and my feeling that I don't want to be called a vegan anymore, so I better eat an animal product to convince myself that I'm not one."
Thoughts, anyone?
I do hope Banana returns, regardless of the criticism and derogatory comments she received.
Well, you can be someone that eats mostly vegan food, and that's fine by me, but it's not being vegan. There is a lot of pressure when first going vegan, there is no denying it from family, friends and other people you meet, but it gets easier, i personally will not compromise my vegan choices, because it is what i believe in, someone has to stand up and show it can be done. That we can live without the appalling animal industry that we have created.
I haven't had anyone seriously question me about being vegan in a long while, i am pleased when someone asks me about it (vegetarian or omnivore), it is an opportunity to use any one of a hundred arguments that exist for giving up a lifestyle dependent on cruelty to animals.
Agree with you on this one.Quote:
Artichoke47
As for unintentionally eating animal products, at present it is almost certainly going to happen from time to time.
I hope so, too. Artichoke47. I didn't wish for her to leave, and I didn't mean to sound derogatory. I wasn't judging Banana, just questioning some of her statements.Quote:
Artichoke47
I totally agree. Some people are being a bit cruel. I understand that this is a vegan forum, and i also understand that it is a place for vegans to excape from the distaste of the omni world. But Banana is recovering from anorexia and i absolutely understand how she is feeling, even though veganism isnt a lack of freedom or choice, PPl who have previously suffered from an eating disorder have severly restrcted their food intake, and may feel as though in order to recover fully they must allow themselves to eat what they are craving. This may not make any sense to most, but thats just my two cents worth. I don't think Banana should be comended and praised for "allowing herself" to have dairy in order to realiseshe doesnt want it, but I do think she is an incredibly brave women who deserves the same amount of understanding and respect as the rest of us.Quote:
rainbow
Also, im pretty sure the title of this thread is VEGANS WITH SLIPS, meaning that this is a thread primarily for those of us who may of made mistakes etc. If you disagree with this or cannot handle OTHER PEOPLES mistakes, then the simple and curtious thing to do would be to leave the thread, as i am sure Korn created it as a SUPPORTIVE environment for those who struggle for whatever reason. Maybe you could create your own thread called "vegans who do not tolerate other peoples choices" and write as many discrimative comments about how perfect and saintly you believe you are. (this outburst is not directed at anyone in particular:) )
Sorry if i have been terribly blunt, but i just wanted to give my two cents:)
she isnt a lacto-vegetarian. she ate dairy once in two years. in order to be a lacto-vegetarian you need to be consuming dairy. she was a lacto-vegetarian for one day.Quote:
Seaside
is it so horrible here that we cant even speak to other fellow vegans of the "hardships" some feel whilst being vegan? i would hope that in real life, if i did what banana had, if i had vegan friends and i felt i was having a hard time with it, i would have these friends to go to, who understood veganism, to say how i slipped up so that they could give me some advice/support to keep on 'truckin' and tell me its okay to get on with veganism now that i had an 'awakening' about it.
i now know that because some are so judgemental/passionate/opinionated (whichever u would like to choose) i cannot freely speak about my 'problems' with veganism (if i ever had some) like you are all my friends here at the vegan forum. i thought this was a place to go and be amongst fellow vegan friends. people who know what its like to be vegan. how horrible it is that because people are so passionate about veganism (not that this is a bad thing) banana has left and now im sure feels that she has noone to speak to about these things.
i suppose this forum is simply for giving input, rather than receiving input. i thought the "how do you feel today" thread was for support from fellow friends on the forum, especially if u arent feeling well about something.
maybe banana talked about it so much because she felt extremely guilty.
im so dissapointed.
Very much agree with Rainbow's long post - and HappyCow's and Foxytina's....
Sadly, I have seen this sort of thing happen many times before. It hurts people, alienates them and doesn't do either the animals or veganism any good either.
Please let's try and leave this sort of aggression to religious bigots.
Mike
Amen Mike.Quote:
Mike Benis
Aren't we all just doing our best? Given the fact that our society is founded on antipathy to other species, it strikes me that veganism is inevitably a compromise. (E.g. if you eat commercially grown organic food it will probably have been grown using all sorts of animal by products. If you don't: you'll be contributing to mass extinction and suffering of animals due to the use of pesticides/herbicides. Sure you can grow your own - but how many round here do?)
I guess if you're a pillar of this forum community it must be a bit of pain in the arse to see newbies struggle nearer the bottom of the vegan ladder. Perhaps, though, you could just lend a hand rather than just boot them off. You never know, that person below you in the vegan pantheon may be doing much better in other expressions of non-violence...
I didn't always agree with Banana but even trying to be peaceful in this world is a precious commodity. If we're losing people like her, and I suspect we are in droves, SOMETHING HERE IS WRONG.
There must still be plenty of room in vegan heaven??
Well, I agree that some of the posts towards Banana were intolerant and judgemental, but if Banana were more tolerant of others' viewpoints, she would have stayed, instead of leaving because people disagreed with her and/or suggested things to correct her "slip" or behavior towards bugs.
I agree.Quote:
Artichoke
Perhaps the fact is we're ALL prone to ethical lapses and being too judgemental from time to time. In fact they may be two sides of the same coin: I judge you too harshly because I'm mad at myself...? Perhaps ultraveganism is like any other zealotry - founded in deep self loathing??
Ultimately, we're all fellow travellers here and IMHO 99% vegan is always good enough because we are only human. It may not be unveganly to hate human frailty, our own and other people's, but it hardly helps the cause...
Sure. In a way, a slip is always intentional (if not, it's an accident). So dealing with 'slips' is more or less a question of dealing with what it is that creates that intention or desire, isn't it?There are a few possible causes: habit, pressure from others, lack of availability, being drunk, lack of focus, or, in some cases, cravings because your vegan diet isn't varied enough. To deal with these issues IS OK IN HERE! :)Quote:
happycow
Dealing with 'slips' is something special for vegans: it's a general issue everybody who want's to live in a special way (or want to avoid certain things in their life) needs to deal with. People who decide to practice piano every day have slips as well, or people who decide to watch TV less or get some fresh air everyday.
It isn't, and has never been, and option for this forum to allow discussions about all kinds of physical/psychological addictions, but to disallow talk about food cravings that conflicts with being vegan. I have both expected these topics to crop up - and also, I'm not surprised that some people find it gross to read too much about them. Thanks to what has happened in here lately, we have a solution: as with all other threads, let's try to posts about certain topics where they belong, and when slip/craving/desire to boil a dog-posts occasionally will appear in other threads (they will!), I can always move and merge a little.
This planet has some serious problems to deal with, and vegans who occasionally post something in a 'wrong' thread is NOT one of them! :)
Whether occasional slips actually is a big problem or not, cravings/slips still may be perceived as a big problem by some, so of course a site for vegans must have room for this. Reading about this can also be useful for ex-vegans who gave up because they felt they weren't 'perfect' enough.
Eating habits are addictive. A vegan site that wouldn't allow discussions about food cravings would be like denying people with a drug addiction history to talk about their possible desires to start with drugs again. If Banana has been having food cravings for a long time and still felt like hanging around here, doesn't this only show that she feels more connected to 'being vegan' than to give in for her cravings and just leave?
Maybe it's time to move on, and not judge people on either side for being who they are. This site is definitely (also) meant as a supportive place for people who find it hard to remain vegans. You CAN 'speak to other fellow vegans of the "hardships" some feel whilst being vegan' here! :)
Banana decided to leave because she wanted to - she didn't have to. A situation like this may be a learning lesson for all of us: Maybe Banana have learned something about making decisions about what's best for her (or about the constant need in life to ignore (pseudo-)pressure and opinions from others). Maybe I've learned something as an 'admin' about making it clear that it's OK to discuss these things if you want to. Maybe whoever have been criticized for how they have dealt with Bananas bananism have discovered that certain ways of communicating can give someone the impression that they're not welcome here, even if they are. People push each other way without knowing it all the time, and this is not a vegan-only phenomenon.
Sure. I haven't read all the posts there, but if something was posted there that would fit better in in a thread about possible vegan 'hardsjips, blame it all on me, not the posters. We haven't had dedicated threads/subforums about the struggles some people have with cravings etc., earlier. Now we have. War is over if you want it.Quote:
i thought the "how do you feel today" thread was for support from fellow friends on the forum, especially if u arent feeling well about something.
We are not meant to agree in everything.
its really upsetting to me that banana got picked on so badly for her issues with veganism... :mad:
i think what she really needed was some support.
imagine if we had all been supportive, and talked (typed) this issue out with her... im sure she could work on her cravings, find something to replace them with...
its disturbing that some of you think that your opinions are the law for everyone. :mad:
Thanks for your thoughts, Artichoke47. I agree. :)Quote:
Artichoke47
Thank you for that thought, Kumem. :)Quote:
Kumem
We vegans are too sensitive for our own good!!!. Perhaps we should all make an affort to be polite and dont get personal??.
I have been attacked here, but it wont stop me from contributing. Its water under the bridge and I suppose I will be attacked again sometime. But hey-ho who cares!!!. :)
Does it matter how many vegan websites there is, the more the merrier, I say. We vegans need all the support we can get.
Yes its a shame Banana has left and I guess a few more might leave. They are more important issues we could be tackling here. We have a global forum here that can help the cause.. So stop bickering amongst ourselves and lets push through important issues.
I guess a slip is something that doesn't last long (and therefore, much less of a problem than an ongoing food craving).Quote:
Exactly what is this "slip" thing? To me, it would be a MOMENT of weakness where one eats an animal product, not that they planned for months or craved for months this item.
There are two ways to deals with cravings that last long: either give in to them, and drop being a vegan/drop being active here, or not give in to them, and use this forum over this period as a place to find support and suggestions about how to get back to live the way you want. If someone thinks that we should not help/support people who have cravings over long periods of time, where do you suggest that they should look for support? This is currently the most active vegan message board, and we have a number of helpful long-term vegans here who are willing to give advice.
I definitely think we should offer help to people with both occasional slips and long-lasting cravings (I haven't heard much about them probably because people who possibly experience them just leave and go back to eating cheese, chicken or whatever they crave...).
RIght now, we have more posts discussing whether we shall discuss cravings or not than posts about cravings. Someone mentioned that posts about cravings may push newcomers away, but maybe a neverending discussion about what we should discuss and not may not be a turn-on to to veganism either.
I don't think anyone said that it was a slip.Quote:
But a planned relapse and surrendering of the "vegan" label because you don't want the label anymore? How is that a slip?
So far I agree. It is about yourself, and not about animals. I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint someone, because I think we need to address that conflict between being self-centered and focused on not harming others, because it looks to me that this is the MAIN reason most people are not vegans.Quote:
To me, that's saying, "This isn't about the animals anymore - it's about me and my cravings and my feeling... [...]
It looks like it's the other way round to me. Some people feel that they are not strong/motived enough to avoid animal products as often as they feel they should, so they choose not to call themselves vegan. First comes the (craving for) eating of animal foods, then the labeling.Quote:
...that I don't want to be called a vegan anymore, so I better eat an animal product to convince myself that I'm not one.
People who have non-vegan food cravings over long periods of time, and give in to them, are not vegans. This is a site for vegans. Therefore people who register here don't expect to find a lot of stuff about giving in to non-vegan food cravings here. Just like some ex-smokers are much more sensitive to smoke then people who ie. never smoked, I understand that there have been and will be negative reactions on over-focusing on (giving in to) cravings for animal foods in here (I don't know if this has happened or not in here). The best solution I can see is to try to keep such posts a place where people who are provoked by seeing them can avoid them, if they need to.
One more thing about about not being judgemental re. cravings and slips:
People are addicted to all kinds of stuff - including, money, gaming, sex, getting positive feedback from others, fame, internet, cheating...
Let's imagine for a moment that this is a discussion about how to be able to live the way you want, and get rid of your hang-ups in general, and not about food/veganism (IMO, this what this thread really is about) Transfer the pro/con comments to ie. being unfaithful. Let's say you are someone who can't resist cheating on your boyfriend/girlfriend whenever you have a chance and come across a temptation. Then you stumble upon a forum for faithful people. You share your trouble with being faithful, people try to help you, but you tell the users once a week or month that you have 'slipped'. This will provoke people, and it will hurt your partner, and people will identify with your partner and speak up for him/her, just like people in here speak up for the animals that are hurt if you have a food craving that includes killing or harming animals.
Here comes the tricky part. If people want to fool themselves, they will fool themselves. This means that some people who have addictions, may it be food, women, money or whatever, will use support from others as an excuse to continue fooling themselves. To me it looks like a lot of non-vegans, for example lacto-vegetarians are continuously*fooling themselves, because they never argue pro eating milk or eggs, they just haven't managed to drop these things yet: they don't want to do it... they just do it. Studies show that a lot of meat eaters rather would like to eat vegetarian etc.
Back to support/allow both discussions about occasional slips and long time food cravings in here: This support is of course not meant to be used as an excuse for people to continue to do something they don't want to do. Ihere is a lot of support to be found from users of this forum, and if people get support , and still continue to 'cheat', me feeling is that they simply want to cheat. They are not interested in eat vegan food only, but they wish they would be interested in eating vegan food only, because it makes so much sense.
Let's support people who really want to go vegan as much as we can, and if it looks to us like people don't really want to go vegan, it's fair to ask them after a while if they are sure they really want to. If I had a really good friend that was unfaithful to his partner a lot, and claimed that he didn't want to continue, but still did, I think the best think I could do for him is to tell him that it looked like he was fooling himself.
Having said that, I think we have a great bunch of people in here that do their best not to fool themselves!
Do you read this thread and are provoked by reading about people who give in to food cravings or even want to discuss them, or to read anything at all written by non-vegans. semi-vegans, ex-vegans or vegan-wannabes? Well, then you shouldn't be reading this thread at all - remember it is in the Not A Vegan Yet-section! :)
Tails4 said (post #106) that there are more important issues we could be tackling here. We have a global forum here that can help the cause. So stop bickering amongst ourselves and lets push through important issues.
I couldn't agree more - it seems to me that there's far too much space and words on issues that couldn't be described as important. For example, with Banana, so many have had their say, and the upshot is that we support those who really try their best to follow a vegan lifestyle as far as they can. What further discussion is really needed, when there are issues needing discussion as regards the environment, the treatment of nonhuman animals, GMOs, health, vitamins etc, current affairs as pertaining to vegans in the world, and many more subjects. Trouble is, these are not the sort of posts that arouse many responses. Oh well! :)
:) I am sorry that Banana has left the forum as a new member and almost vegan i enjoyed reading her frequent postings.
I became vegetarian ten years ago it wasn't an overnight decision but one made after a lot of time eating less and less meat till I decided to take the step. I actually found that quite easy. despite living with meat eaters. Probably partly because I never really liked meat, and because i have a compassion for my fellow beings, human and non human and the environment as a whole. i don't preach but i do try to get my opinions accross when asked stupid questions about why i chose to stop eating meat and what I eat, and the even more bizarre questions i am asked as i continue to try to stick to a vegan diet. I have found the forum very supportive as i don't know any vegans any more!
Quote:
Cal
Thank you for your thoughtful and meaningful posts Cal.Quote:
Thank you for that thought, Kumem.
Banana was quite patient and tollerant with the "witch hunt". In her own words, the whole thing "exhausted" her and that is why she left. There is so much more to work towards, without having to worry about pleasing people who will never be pleased with anything other than perfection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artichoke
Well, I agree that some of the posts towards Banana were intolerant and judgemental, but if Banana were more tolerant of others' viewpoints, she would have stayed, instead of leaving because people disagreed with her and/or suggested things to correct her "slip" or behavior towards bugs.
;) :)Quote:
Roxy
This is my attitude too. I've been attacked on other forums many times, but I stayed because I liked the forum and the other people there. In my opinion, to strongly disagree is not the same as an attack. I've experienced both, and in order to enjoy any forum I have to know the difference. :)Quote:
tails4wagging
theres a company here that makes rice snack..called 'snack a jacks' some are caramel flavoured. i looked at the pack and they contain milk so i wont touch them. nevertheless they do beckon to me every time i see them in the shop.
does anyone know of a vegan alternative so satifsy my craving?
There are some Japanese rice cakes made by Clearspring that are rather moreish and apparently vegan:
http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-...il/403424.html
There are other flavours as well, although they are (I think) all savoury so I don't know if they will satisfy your urge for a caramel-flavour one! You can get them in healthfood shops (which will have other rice cracker type things, not all vegan) and also in the "free from" (allergy) sections of some supermarkets.
thanks! will give them a go. :)Quote:
harpy
I have a question about honey...I tend to not eat it becuase I consider it an animal product but a raw vegan cookbook I have sometimes calls for honey or maple syrup in the recipes. I always use the syrup but was wondering, is honey vegan, or is it more something that is a choice for vegans to eat or not eat? Sorry about my ignorance, but I'm trying to learn, thanx! :)
Honey is not vegan, no matter how humane the bees are treated. Honey is an animal product, and a disgusting one at that being that it is bee vomit. I've always looked at it like this, I would not eat a dog's vomit, or any other animal's vomit; why in the world would I consume bee vomit?
There are raw foodists who are not vegan and consume raw animals and raw animal secretions/vomit.
Use agave nectar instead of the honey.
FR, thanx for telling me how honey's made, now I'm gald that I no longer eat it, I always considered it an animal product in the first place. The weird thing is, this chef IS a raw vegan, not just raw, but maybe he doesn't eat honey himself, that's probably the answer to that. And thank you so much Artichoke for the alternative to honey, I've been using brown rice syrup made by a vegan company that kind of replicates the taste and texture but agave nectar sounds great! I'll have to try it! :)
Actually, a compelling reason to not eat honey is a stance against animal cruelty and killing. Collection of honey kills bees. It's also exploitation.
The grossness factor fails in comparison to the suffering.
It is not that I do not agree, but some bees are raised in a humane manner. So, the grossness factor is always something to consider when the bees are in fact raised and handled in a humane manor by very small, local operations. Aside from financial exploitation, what other argument could one have besides the fact that honey is actually vomit even when it is obtained in a cruelty free way?Quote:
Artichoke47
:confused:
Can you rephrase so I can understand your question, please? Thanks.Quote:
FR
When honey is obtained in a cruelty free manner, aside from financial exploitation, what better argument could one have besides the fact that honey is actually vomit?
I agree cruelty issues supercede all other issues surrounding honey as most honey is obtained in that way.
/sorry for sounding incoherent. :p