Where exactly does Vitamin B12 come from?

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Where exactly does the bacteria used to manufacture B12 originally come from? I keep hearing that the original source must be animal derived. True or not?

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"Microorganisms, primarily bacteria, are the only known organisms that manufacture B12. These bacteria often live in bodies of water and soil. Animals get B12 by eating food and soil contaminated with these microorganisms." Read more here...

So B12 is created by microorganisms, and is (ideally) to be found in water and soil. It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines (Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.). From PubMed: : "...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin." B12 is also partially recycled in out bodies. Some people insists that in the ideal vegan world we could keep recycling the B12 we got from our mothers milk as babies, but almost everybody agree that we need a B12 intake - from an external source.

One very interesting article I've seen on B12 is this one: http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm . Here's a quote from it:

"B12 is the only vitamin synthesized solely by certain microorganisms - many of which are abundant in soil. And the only vitamin containing a trace element: cobalt. B12 owes its chemical name 'cobalamin' to the cobalt at the center of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, though it's assimilated only in the form of B12.

Cobalt is important in the plant world. Bacteria on root nodules of legumes (beans, alfalfa, clover) require cobalt (and other trace elements) to synthesize B12 and fix nitrogen from air. Soybeans grown without cobalt are severely retarded in growth and exhibit severe nitrogen deficiency, leading to death in about one of four plants. Adding only a few ounces of cobalt per acre can resolve deficiency symptoms in ten to 21 days.

Cobalt deficiency is far more dramatic in animals, particularly ruminants (cattle, deer, camels, and sheep) grazing on deficient pasture. These animals obtain all their B12 from their gut bacteria, but only if bacteria are provided cobalt salts from pasture. Legumes with less than 80 parts per billion (ppb) cobalt can't meet ruminant B12 needs. Under deficient conditions, calves and lambs thrive and grow normally for a few months as they draw on B12 reserves in liver and other tissue, but soon exhibit gradual loss of appetite and failure to grow, followed by anemia, rapid weight loss and finally death. Marginally deficient pastures cause birth of weak lambs and calves that don't survive long. These symptoms mirror B12 deficiency in human infants.

To prevent or alleviate cobalt-B12 deficiency, farmers routinely add cobalt to animal feeds or salt licks. Some fertilize pastures with cobalt-enriched fertilizers; others opt for periodic quick-fix B12 injections. With any of these measures, all symptoms are reversed and B12 in milk and colostrum dramatically increases.

The implication for humans subsisting on vegetarian diets are profound. B12 synthesis by indigenous bacteria is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine, primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce B12. In principle then, internal B12 synthesis could fulfill our needs without any B12 provided by diet.

But if cobalt in our diet is on the wane, perhaps the problem isn't so much lack of B12-synthesizing intestinal flora as lack of cobalt, the element with which bacteria weave their magic. The burning question then is: how cobalt deficient is our soil?"

Animals and plants require cobalt in order to synthesize / produce B12. (B12 is called cobalamin because of the cobalt atom in it's center). In reply to "where does the bacteria come from", one could maybe reply "from cobalt", but this isn't totally 100% correct. It comes from a combination of microorganisms and cobalt. B12 can sometimes be found on the surface of plants, and commercial B12 production is partly based on growing B12 on the surface of molasses. Animals need cobalt from the soil in order not to develop B12 deficiency, but where does cobalt come from?

Studies show that ie. spinach grown in maneured soil contains 17.8 mcg B12/kg (dry weight), but since spinach grown in unmaneured soil also contains B12 (6.9mcg), we can't really say that the B12 come from cow dung only.

Maybe soil and water always contains minute traces of humans, insects and animals? That might be, but it wouldn't worry me much: if drinking water from a mountain stream contain microscopic amounts of animal products, so be it. Nature is a giant recycle bin, and there's not much we can do about it. Microorganisms / bacteria is part of nature. B12 is not only to be found in water and soil, but also in grass, on dust and in bark!

To answer the question 'where does micro-organisms come from is a bit tricky - it's a little bit like 'If God created the Earth, who created God?"...

What we know, is that cobalt is the key to B12 synthesis, and cobalt isn't an animal, it doesn't have parents, no eyes, and for sure it doesn't try to run away when someone tries to eat it :-).

Some other quotes, more or less relevant to your question:

"Cobalt is required in trace amounts by bacteria in root nodules of legumes for nitrogen fixation. Found in high concentrations in pollen, stile and stigma, and promotes the optimum distribution of plant pigments and chloroplasts in the leaves.
For Humans and Animals : Cobalt is vital in trace amounts for the proper functioning and as a component of vitamin B12, assists with nerve function and blood production http://www.gardenews.co.nz/mail.htm



This guy is exaggerating a little, but still:
"B12, (an essential nutrient) deficiency has become a pandemic problem. It is produced solely by a microbe, no place else. Normally it lives in the air (on dust in the air) in water and in soil, as well as in the intestines of many animals. Current research clearly demonstrates that eating flesh will no longer help a B12 deficient person, as the animals themselves are B12 deficient today. We have destroyed the environment that is friendly to this bacteria. http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/9471.html


"Adventist health scientist Matt Steele wondered about this for a long time. Vitamin B12 is almost the universal product of bacterial action. So it dawned on him that it might have come from natural drinking water -- which would have had many bacteria in its catchment area. He tested the water in the Yarra River near Warburton Adventist Hospital in Australia. The river water there is good drinking quality. When he tested it, he found one litre (two pints) of the water contained the Recommended Daily Allowance of Vitamin B12."
http://www.tagnet.org/adventist.fm/health/heallup.htm


"Vitamin B-12 is synthesized by single-celled microbes (bacteria) that live in the soils of the earth. And long ago when the earth and soils were healthy, before we put all sorts of chemicals on them, the surface of the earth was covered with vitamin B-12. There used to be lots of vitamin B-12 in our lives. Even if you were a pure vegetarian 300 years ago, you could open up the back door of your cottage and outside would be a beautiful organic garden. Every carrot you pulled out of the ground would have little particles of vitamin B-12 sticking to it. When it came time to get your water, you'd take a bucket of water out of the stream, and there too you would find vitamin B-12. There would be B-12 under your finger nails from working in the garden. There would be plenty of B-12 in your life, and since you needed so little of it, concerns about deficiency would not be an issue.

"We've become very isolated from the earth and we've lost our natural sources of B-12. Cows have B-12 in their muscles because they're eating grass all day and their pulling up clumps of dirt that have B-12 producing organisms clinging to the root of the grass. They eat the B-12 producing organisms who produce the B-12, which gets absorbed into their bloodstream, goes out into the muscles, and is deposited into their muscles and livers. But that is bacterial B-12 in the cow's muscle. The cow did not make it, nor did the pig or chicken. "

http://www.vegsource.com/klaper/optimum.htm [Comment: at least the animal didn't make the cobalt required for B12 synthesis. Korn.]


"...the greater quantities of fiber consumed by vegetarians tend to promote the settlement of bacteria in the lower areas of the small intestine and hence also the production of B12 in this region. As there is normally also a sufficient concentration of intrinsic factor in this area, the body is able to utilise any B12 that the bacteria may produce here." http://www.holotc.net/pages/b12_defi...1/general.html

This one is also a bit over-veganistic :), but still has an interesting part:
"What needs to be addressed is the deficiency of this vitamin found in meat eaters. With protein digestion taking up to five days, which causes putrification, harmful bacteria begin to grow crowding out the "friendly" bacteria needed for the formation and absorption of nutrients. B12 and the necessary intrinsic factor are consumed in this type of environment and are never able to reach their intended destination. Therefore, even though the diet may be rich in the nutrient, it cannot be used in the body because of existing factors including this scenario." http://www.innvista.com/health/nutri...tamins/b12.htm

"Some bacteria in the small intestine apparently produce vitamin B12 (3) which can be absorbed (4). This is one possible explanation for why so few cases of vitamin B12 deficiency are reported. Perhaps our bacteria are making vitamin B12 for us." http://www.natural-connection.com/re...formation.html

"Have animal products always been the sole purveyor of vitamin B12 in the human diet? and, Are they the best source of this nutrient? We believe that the answers to both of these questions are likely to be no. Upon reflection, we should note that in a more primitive setting, human beings almost certainly would have obtained an abundance of vitamin B12 from the bacterial ñcontaminationî of unwashed fresh fruits and vegetables „regardless of their intake of animal products. Human vitamin B12 deficiency is very unlikely to occur in such a setting."
http://www.healthpromoting.com/Artic...ticles/b12.htm



"The large intestines of humans also have many of these B12-producing bacteria, but it is believed that most of this bacteria is too far away from the absorption sites to do any good. Others contend that humans get adequate amounts of B12 from the vitamin-producing bacteria in the lower portion of the small intestine, which is also a site for absorption."
"Because it is essential to normal functioning and it's produced only by microorganisms, we can see why Dr. A. Mozafar's B12 discoveries (as discussed by Dr. Campbell) have such very important implications. And this is especially so for vegans. Dr. Mozafar found that soils enriched with organic fertilizer resulted in several-fold increases in the soil's B12 content compared to soils worked with conventional inorganic fertilizers. More importantly, the soil's B12 was actually absorbed by the plants tested. Although only three types of plants were tested, each one was found to have a significant increase in B12 absorption. Keep in mind, however, that it's wise to get a simple blood test to determine your B12 status, which may vary according to your ability to absorb B12, as well as the differences in organic vegetables." http://newcentury.vegsource.com/publ...taminB12.shtml



There are many unclear issues around B12: What is the purpose of B12 analogues? Are the B12 produced in our bodies of any use for us? We know that B12 fortified food, plants, our bodies and even some B12 supplements contain B12 analogues, and there are also known cases where symptoms of B12 deficiency have been treated with a mixture of true B12 and B12 analogues. But we know little about how active/bio-available the B12 in ie. spinach or ie. the above mentioned Yarra River is. Maybe someone from PCRM, PETA, IVU or The Vegan Society could invest some money in finding out more about this?

Hi everyone, I was just curious to find out this: if Vitamin B12 is necessary and can only be found in animal products, why IS it necessary? And since some vegan foods are fortified with it, is it fortified with animal product Vitamin B12? Hopefully that all made sense to you guys. Basically what I am trying to say that since it's only in animal products, why is it necessary, and also is it ALL from animals? Thanks so much!

Hi Veggie4Life, I just merged your post with another thread about the same topic. You might be interested in this subforum as well - and in this announcement.

Hi, i am new.

"We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., "


The title of the former sounds a little ominous as far as the -type- of vitamin b12 it produces. Besides, the large intestine is no good for b-12 production, due to its location.

The corrinoids also require cobalt. This study shows that they decrease when spirulina is grown in a cobalt-deficient medium:

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J Agric Food Chem 2001 Nov;49(11):5685-8
Inactive corrinoid-compound significantly decreases in Spirulina platensis grown in a cobalt-deficient medium.
Watanabe F, Miyamoto E, Nakano Y. Department of Health Science, Kochi Women's University, Kochi 780-8515, Japan. watanabe@cc.kochi-wu.ac.jp
Spirulina platensis NIES-39 was grown under open culture system in the presence or absence of CoSO(4) (12 microg/L) and/or vitamin B(12) (10 microg/L) to confirm whether CoSO(4) and/or vitamin B(12) stimulate or are essential for growth of the algal cells and for accumulation of vitamin B(12). The addition of CoSO(4) and/or vitamin B(12) could not affect both cell growth and cell yield of the alga. The amount of corrinoid-compound was increased significantly by the addition of CoSO(4) but not by vitamin B(12). A C18 reversed-phase HPLC pattern of the Spirulina corrinoid-compound increased by the addition of CoSO(4) was identical to that of authentic pseudovitamin B(12), which is inactive for human. These results indicate that the algal cells grown in the absence of CoSO(4) are suitable for use of human health foods because the inactive corrinoid-compound can be reduced significantly.
PMID: 11714378
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It makes no mention of "active" b12, yet concludes that "algal cells grown in the absence of CoSO(4) are suitable for use of human health foods because the inactive corrinoid-compound can be reduced significantly."

......presumably for people who consume spirulina for its other nutrients.

Hey Korn - have you ever thought of getting professional help for your (apparent) obsession with B12 :)

No :) . I may have gotten a new friend in Grant, who registered today (see the above post), who even mentions B12 in his profile :)

B1 & B2 are my favourites! :)

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grant

Hi, i am new.

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Hi grant! I wish I were voluntarily leisured.

"who even mentions B12 in his profile"

I cant help being interested in B12, but hi anyway! :)


"I wish I were voluntarily leisured."

Hi Seaside! I was kind of kidding about that bit! But yes, i would too.:)

The cobalt connection points out the necessity for remineralizing our soils with stuff like granite rock dust, seaweed and sea solids (concentrated seawater).

From http://www.all-creatures.org/mhvs/nl-2005-wi-b12.html:

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According to the Nutraceutical Corporation, makers of VegLife, their B12 source used in their B-Complex supplement comes from a “microbial fermentation of brown rice.” The soymilk called Silk uses a fortified B12 source from a vegetable glucose fermentation process claims the company’s website www.WhiteWave.com.

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Here's some info regarding where the B12 in another specific supplement comes from (it's using gelatin, so it's not a vegan product, but here's a list of how the B12 is produced):

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Nutrients are cultured in organic media that may contain: organic milled soy*, organic yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) - a natural source of PABA and SOD, organic maltodextrin, organic gum acacia, organic orange and lemon peel - natural sources of bioflavonoids, organic carrot powder, organic alfalfa powder, enzymes and Lactobacilli (L. acidophilus, L. bifidus, L. rhamnosus)

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Here's what Wikipedia writes about 21 different bacteria that are capable of synthesizing B12:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoco..._note-b12plant

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Vit B12 cannot be made by plants or animals[2], as the only type of organisms that have the enzymes required for the synthesis of B12 are bacteria and archaea. The total synthesis of B12 was reported by Robert Burns Woodward[3][4] and Albert Eschenmoser[5][6], and remains one of the classic feats of total synthesis.

Species from the following genera are known to synthesize B12: Aerobacter, Agrobacterium, Alcaligenes, Azotobacter, Bacillus, Clostridium, Corynebacterium, Flavobacterium, Micromonospora, Mycobacterium, Nocardia, Propionibacterium, Protaminobacter, Proteus, Pseudomonas, Rhizobium, Salmonella, Serratia, Streptomyces, Streptococcus and Xanthomonas. Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms.[7] The most used species are Pseudomonas denitrificans and Propionibacterium shermanii, often genetically engineered and grown under special conditions to enhance yield.

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The same article also confirms that "Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms. (Source: J.H. Martens, H. Barg, M.J. Warren and D. Jahn (2002). "Microbial production of vitamin B12". Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology 58: 275-285.)

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Korn

To prevent or alleviate cobalt-B12 deficiency, farmers routinely add cobalt to animal feeds or salt licks. Some fertilize pastures with cobalt-enriched fertilizers; others opt for periodic quick-fix B12 injections. With any of these measures, all symptoms are reversed and B12 in milk and colostrum dramatically increases.

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*SWEARS LOUDLY*

So the omnivore humans are getting supplements TOO!! AHA!

*is satisfied* :o

There are many reasons why humans live longer today than they used to and this is definitely one of them.

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Korn

"...the greater quantities of fiber consumed by vegetarians tend to promote the settlement of bacteria in the lower areas of the small intestine and hence also the production of B12 in this region. As there is normally also a sufficient concentration of intrinsic factor in this area, the body is able to utilise any B12 that the bacteria may produce here." http://www.holotc.net/pages/b12_defi...1/general.html

This one is also a bit over-veganistic :), but still has an interesting part:
"What needs to be addressed is the deficiency of this vitamin found in meat eaters. With protein digestion taking up to five days, which causes putrification, harmful bacteria begin to grow crowding out the "friendly" bacteria needed for the formation and absorption of nutrients. B12 and the necessary intrinsic factor are consumed in this type of environment and are never able to reach their intended destination. Therefore, even though the diet may be rich in the nutrient, it cannot be used in the body because of existing factors including this scenario." http://www.innvista.com/health/nutri...tamins/b12.htm

"Some bacteria in the small intestine apparently produce vitamin B12 (3) which can be absorbed (4). This is one possible explanation for why so few cases of vitamin B12 deficiency are reported. Perhaps our bacteria are making vitamin B12 for us." http://www.natural-connection.com/re...formation.html

"Have animal products always been the sole purveyor of vitamin B12 in the human diet? and, Are they the best source of this nutrient? We believe that the answers to both of these questions are likely to be no. Upon reflection, we should note that in a more primitive setting, human beings almost certainly would have obtained an abundance of vitamin B12 from the bacterial ñcontaminationî of unwashed fresh fruits and vegetables „regardless of their intake of animal products. Human vitamin B12 deficiency is very unlikely to occur in such a setting."
http://www.healthpromoting.com/Artic...ticles/b12.htm

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I wonder if the populous belief that B12 deficiency in vegans and veggies, is because of the determination they have to sorts the problem out, researching, asking for tests, and therefore being singled out as deficient- just how many meat eaters do you know have actually been tested for B12?There may be many who are similarly deficient,

Anyhow on the quotes about, i began to think about the meat in people's diet putrifying and rotting in our non-carnivore designed intestines. I wonder if this is where the so called 'intrinsic factor' has been hypothesised to exist, where helpful gut flora, bacteria etc that could create B12 have such a good chance to multiply, maybe producing analogues of intestinal use. But for the other detriments of meat I think it is not worth considering, and dismiss the intrinsic factors....so my shit contains B12 etc:thumbsup: ...I'd rather think about that protein myth, watch my weight, and eat more veggies.

If we get absorption right, and work out what are the right foods, eventually we'll be able to tackle the supplement industry, which i feel is not much more than an pharmaceuticals business:dizzy:

How about Mud(Soil) bath?

Today, I met with one of Jain saint here.

He has not taken any dairy products or any other animal products for last 6 years or so.

He told me, if we deep our legs in soil for two hours on weekly basis, our body will absorb Vitamin b-12 or any other thing which our body needs. :confused:

Is it possible that our body will absorb Vitamin B-12 in the form of bacterias like oil is being observed when we apply on our body ? :confused:

2 months taking 1000ug Vitamin B12 'timed release' Holland and Barrett (100caps bottle @£8.50) one-a-day {these are not the ideal, ones but the cyanocobalamin type but I've found a place where I can get the better ones at £9} and I now have real results, with no significant change to my 90% plus, raw food vegan diet.

B12/FOLATE LEVEL (with 12 hours fast) 499pg/ml (rec. range 197-866)

I had a second test the prev. wk w/o fasting and the reading was 535pg/ml

I sit right in the middle of the recommended range, and feel much happier, and have experienced none of the symptoms, however minor, as I had before. Cost- just 8 1/2 pence a day. I simple remedy from the 106pg/ml level I had fallen to.

My result for calcium was also slightly higher, although still very close to the low level. My Mg 0.88mmol/L (safe betw. 0.65-1.05) and blood sugar 4.7 mmol/L (safe 3.2-6.0) :):):):):):):)

Maybe I am too deficient of b-12 to understand all this.
I supplement with Nutritional Yeast and Crystal Geyser Juice Squeeze.
Am I nuts to think that would be sufficient?

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indianvegan

He told me, if we deep our legs in soil for two hours on weekly basis, our body will absorb Vitamin b-12 or any other thing which our body needs. :confused:

Is it possible that our body will absorb Vitamin B-12 in the form of bacterias like oil is being observed when we apply on our body ? :confused:

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Hi Manish, I missed your post back in June! I don't think any scientific studies exist about this - but check out this thread:
Absorbing vitamins through the skin

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cresida

Am I nuts to think that would be sufficient?

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Hi,
to say anything meaningful about your B12 intake needs, on would need to look at a lot of factors - eg. how many B12 'killers' your are regularly exposed to, how much (and what kind of) nutritional yeast you use and so on. New vegans also need to consider staying away from B12 supplementing - if they come from a diet very high in B12 - due to all the uncertainty around side effects of a high B12 intake (look here B12 overdose / megadose?)

I'm against general advice, but the best general advice one could give to any vegan/non-vegan about B12 is to make sure you get some B12 every week - but don't overdo it: You may want to increase or reduce your B12 levels, based on your lifestyle, what you have eaten (and taken) in the past - and more. There's a lot of controversy around the link between B12 and homocysteine (check B12, homocysteine, & heart disease), and also about the reliability of so called MMA tests.

Vegans have a lower B12 intake than non-vegans, and the main difference between eating animal products and not eating them, is the B12 intake. With all the diseases (and cancer types) associated with a high intake of animal products, it would be silly not to seriously look at the possible link between a high B12 intake and cancer.

I know that you already found this complicated - sorry about the details. :-)

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leopd

2 months taking 1000ug Vitamin B12 'timed release' Holland and Barrett (100caps bottle @£8.50) one-a-day {these are not the ideal, ones but the cyanocobalamin type but I've found a place where I can get the better ones at £9} and I now have real results, with no significant change to my 90% plus, raw food vegan diet.

B12/FOLATE LEVEL (with 12 hours fast) 499pg/ml (rec. range 197-866)

I had a second test the prev. wk w/o fasting and the reading was 535pg/ml

I sit right in the middle of the recommended range, and feel much happier, and have experienced none of the symptoms, however minor, as I had before. Cost- just 8 1/2 pence a day. I simple remedy from the 106pg/ml level I had fallen to.

My result for calcium was also slightly higher, although still very close to the low level. My Mg 0.88mmol/L (safe betw. 0.65-1.05) and blood sugar 4.7 mmol/L (safe 3.2-6.0) :):):):):):):)

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Where do you get tested for the levels?

I asked my GP. In point of fact, I requested that they look into my levels of B12 since I had heard that it was a recommendation of health professionals that vegans should be tested, to see if their strict diet requires supplementation.

By putting the ball in their own court ( maybe pill in their own bottle! ) I suggested it was already their concern to check us. I didn't want to come across as a hypochondriac, or scrounger of the NHS service, so expressed how important they have made this issue out to be, and by their 'result', would support their ideas of evidenced based science.
:thumbsup:

That's a great idea. Will give it a go myself and put my mind at ease.

Thanks. :-)